Stanley 608 jointer woes ebay warning

[Jay Knoll]

I was tuning up my newly refurbished plane and discovered a major problem that I hadn't noticed when I received the plane, it rocks from front to back! The trailing edge "sweeps up" to amost 1/16" clearance at the end. The plane is flat until just after the rear end of the tote, then it starts to "bend".

Needless to say I am very upset with myself that I didn't notice this before I sent it off to be refurbished. I had run a small starret square accross the sole from side to side and didn't see any problems, the sole was flat and square with the sides, but I didn't get a long straightedge out to check it "the long way" Heck, I don't need a good straight edge to see the problem a board highlights the situation just fine.

I corresponded with Mike in Katy for advice -- he said he didn't check the plane for flatness before he started. I'm not blaming him but I wish he had!

I wrote to the guy who sold it to me, he asked if I got the same plane back from the refurbisher that I sent! Boy that really set me off, accusing someone else of being dishonest when he sold me the item. I wasn't accusing the seller of anything, just trying to tell him what I was going through. Since I didn't notice the problem when I got it I think the mistake is mine to bear.

Bob Smalser suggested that I take it to a machine shop to see if they can clean it up, but with this much "bend" in the sole I'm concerned that I'll only weaken the plane not solve the problem. It feels like I"d be throwing good money after bad.

So, guess I've got a very expensive paper weight in my shop. My fault entirely since I didn't notice it when it came, but I guess I'm sort of feeling that I was penny wise and pound foolish in buying something on eBay. Don't know if I"ll go through it again, if I had noticed it I would have had to pay return shipping (I guess) and hassle with paypal. If I had dealt with a "real company" I could have sent it back for a return, The guy on ebay isn't cooperating at all, didn't even have the decency to say, "I'm sorry this happened, I didn't notice any problem when I posted the item."

Right now I'm feeling like I should have saved and waited until I could afforded something from L-N or LV.

I think it will be a long time -- perhaps never -- before I buy anything on ebay.

Jay

[Michael Cody]

That sucks actually, but I am not so sure I would jump on the seller assuming him/her to be dis-honest. If you didn't notice, and Mike didn't notice, are you reasonably sure it's not a possibility the guy who sold it didn't notice it. I can't remember myself ever checking a plane for lengthwise flatness.. but I will be sure to now. In fact I don't see how a plane could warp that way giving it's a fairly heavy U channel of cast iron. But obviously it can -- new one on me. Out of curiosity -- where does the warp start??

Now as a seller on Ebay, I would probably have refunded your money if shipped plane back to me @ your expense depending on how I had worded the sale info. If I said looked good but was sold as is .. then I would refund you purchase but only if you shipped it back to me @ your expense and I verified your claim. If I had said it was straight & true, then I would pay the shipping back and refund your money if it the item was bad. IE I would want it back to verify your claim.

The seller here has sold you what he/she probably thought was a sound plane that needed some TLC -- you sent it out to a third-party and had it refurb'd ... it's reasonable to me that the seller would not warranty it then.. I know I wouldn't beyond what I mentioned above and I consider that generous seeing as it went out to third party. There are just as many dishonest buyers as dishonest sellers out there for sure and the seller doesn't know you personally I assume. I assume you already posted feedback so you really don't have any leverage here.

[Jay Knoll]

That sucks actually, but I am not so sure I would jump on the seller assuming him/her to be dis-honest. If you didn't notice, and Mike didn't notice, are you reasonably sure it's not a possibility the guy who sold it didn't notice it.

Mike, I didn't accuse him of being dishonest, I was just letting him know about the situation. In fact, I wasn't asking him to take it back, I think this is really my fault for not noticing it, I was letting hime know so he could at least check other stuff he sells, However his reponse as noted below didn't leave me with any warm feelings about him,
I can't remember myself ever checking a plane for lengthwise flatness.. but I will be sure to now. In fact I don't see how a plane could warp that way giving it's a fairly heavy U channel of cast iron. But obviously it can -- new one on me. Out of curiosity -- where does the warp start??

The warp starts about 1" behind the rear end of the tote
Now as a seller on Ebay, I would probably have refunded your money if shipped plane back to me @ your expense depending on how I had worded the sale info. If I said looked good but was sold as is .. then I would refund you purchase but only if you shipped it back to me @ your expense and I verified your claim. If I had said it was straight & true, then I would pay the shipping back and refund your money if it the item was bad. IE I would want it back to verify your claim.

The seller here has sold you what he/she probably thought was a sound plane that needed some TLC -- you sent it out to a third-party and had it refurb'd ... it's reasonable to me that the seller would not warranty it then.. I know I wouldn't beyond what I mentioned above and I consider that generous seeing as it went out to third party. There are just as many dishonest buyers as dishonest sellers out there for sure and the seller doesn't know you personally I assume. I assume you already posted feedback so you really don't have any leverage here.

You're right I don't have any leverage -- in fact I gave him a neutral rating, I wanted him to ship the plane directly to Mike and had asked him this question via email during the bidding -- no reply so I assumed it was OK. Then, after I had agreed to buy the thing he said we wouldn't ship it to Mike. So I had to pay shipping to me and then shipping to Mike.

Again, I wasn't asking him for anything and wasn't accusing him of being dishonest. BUT the fact that he accused someone else of switching planes gives me pause to question his integrity.

[Dan Moening]

I'm certainly not a plane expert so salt this response to taste ;)

If the warp starts behind the tote...will this really effect the usage of this plane? Render it useless?

Due to both the length and weight, you'll not likely be rocking the front end back onto this warped area during the stroke, right?

The only time I would think this would come into play would be at the end of a stroke as the back end of the plane is still resting on the stock...and even then the majority of the plane still on the stock (tote to mouth) is greater than warped area (1" behind tote to heel of body). As the blade exits the stock you're done with the stroke.

Willing to learn...

[Jay Knoll]

I don't know and hope that someone with more knowledge than I renders and opinion.

My understanding of why jointer planes work is because of thier lengeth, shorter planes ride the "hills and valleys" while the long length of the jointer forces the plane to smooth off the peaks until the wood is flat. So, the tail end of the plane is as important in setting this reference as the rest of the sole.

The plane is 24" long, and the last 8" is the area that appears to be affected.

Jay

[Dan Moening]

the last 8" is the area to be affected.

I was trying to envision this distance and didn't realize it would be this much.

It would seem reasonable that the performance would be diminished...

If you didn't know that this warp was there, would the plane joint a straight edge? ;)

Looking for that glimmer of hope...

[Tim Leo]

I don't understand why Mike in Katy didn't check that before he refurbished the plane.

[Jay Knoll]

Mike makes the planes pretty, he doesn't lap soles, he cleans them up, polishes refinishes/replaces knobs/totes and does an initial grind on the blade. His services don't include an evaluation, my comment was that I wished he had noticed, I don't hold him responsible for anything.

Jay

[Tony Zaffuto]

Jay,

Since it sounds as if you've pretty much given up on the plane, try to fix? You got nothing to lose, right?

I would suggest, if you have access to a belt sander, to carefully "sand" the sole flat. You may not ever get it completely flat, but you may get it to a useable condition. Try a 100 to 120 alum. oxide belt, that's pretty much wore out. Carefully lower the plane onto the moving belt and off of the belt, testing for flatness quite often.

I would think, given the thickness of the iron sole and the sides of the plane you may get fairly close to flattening the beast.

Tony Z.

[Jim DeLaney]

Use it! You may be amazed to find out that it cuts beautifully and accurately. By the time the plane's blade exits the wood, there's still nearly a foot of flat plane sole in contact with the wood. There's no way that you're gonna be liftin the plane body up so that it's riding on the upturned tail while the blade is still on the wood.

Basically, there's nothing wrong with the plane, other than aesthetics.

[Tom LaRussa]

I was tuning up my newly refurbished plane and discovered a major problem that I hadn't noticed when I received the plane, it rocks from front to back! The trailing edge "sweeps up" to amost 1/16" clearance at the end. The plane is flat until just after the rear end of the tote, then it starts to "bend".

{{snip}}

Bob Smalser suggested that I take it to a machine shop to see if they can clean it up, but with this much "bend" in the sole I'm concerned that I'll only weaken the plane not solve the problem. It feels like I"d be throwing good money after bad.

Jay,

I would suggest building up the up-swept part by soldering on a thin plate of brass or mild steel, then have a machine shop grind the last 8" coplaner with the rest of the sole. That way you get it flat but without weakening it.

Bob Smalser demonstrated soldering stuff onto cast iron in his first post about making a cheap 50 degree smoother, http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=8136

[Clay Craig]

Mostly, I love that all three solutions were suggested - bend it straight, sand off what is now effectively a 'hump' between the mouth and the tail, and fill in the sole to be flat.

First, I think it does matter - no excuses about when the tail leaves the board suffice. No one hauled around those extra inches of iron for nuthin'. Right now you essentially have a long and shallow compass plane.

I hate to say it, but I don't think sanding off the bottom will work - remember that you can't just shoot for a plane from the rear of the mouth to the tail of the sole - you have to get the front of the sole, the mouth, and the tail all in the SAME plane. Sanding to that point means drawing the new sole line from present-sole-toe to present-sole-tail, and sanding back to it. I suspect this would widen the mouth considerably, if no more (as well as take a lonnnng time).

Of the remaining two, I'd say - try to bend it! I would not worry a moment about remaining stresses in the iron. Bend it with no frog nor iron in it, until it is flat with the frog and iron back in and clamped under pressure. Means lots of fiddling back and forth, but if you can get it very close, then you can perhaps fettle out the remainder, and the pressure of your planing use thereafter is not going to make any difference as far as new stresses in the casting from this bending process.

OR ... convert to the bowed-jointing-of-panel-glue-ups cult, and declare this plane specially made for putting long, shallow dishes in edges to be glued into panels?

Good luck, let us know ...

Clay

[Corvin Alstot]

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My understanding of why jointer planes work is because of their length, shorter planes ride the "hills and valleys" while the long length of the jointer forces the plane to smooth off the peaks until the wood is flat. So, the tail end of the plane is as important in setting this reference as the rest of the sole. Jay<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>Jay this is correct. The advantage of the 608 is to have a flat reference point at the toe, a spot right in front of the blade or mouth and at the heel. About a 24" flat surface, the points in between do not matter for the most part<o:p></o:p>

Tim Leo- I don't understand why Mike in Katy didn't check that before he refurbished the plane.<o:p></o:p>

My assumption is that Mike was hired to refinish the paint not tune the plane up. It would be no different than asking your auto body painter to see if your car frame is in alignment.
Jay, IMHO you have three options. One, as Jim noted- use it, see how it works. Two, add a small shim to the heel that corresponds to the mouth and toe. You could glue on a small pad to see if this would work before going to the trouble of more permanent applications. I would avoid bending the plane unless you have a friend that is familiar with bending cast metal, the stuff is somewhat brittle. Also, sanding might remove too much metal and enlarge the mouth, but it might help get another couple of inches of flat surface in the rear.<o:p></o:p>
Another option is to sell the plane. You could look at selling it whole or in pieces. All the parts have big value, and I am sure that someone would even want the body. I know that the lever caps run between $25-50. <o:p></o:p>

Best of luck, let use know how you resolve the matter.<o:p></o:p>

[Bob Smalser]

Whoa there.

Somebody who has successfully bent a cast iron jointer plane without cracking it please report in....

...because it is the rock bottom thing I'd try.

Take it to a machine shop with a surface grinder and have them draw you using layout fluid on the side of the plane exactly how much has to come off to get it flat.

If it's too much, then we can drop back and punt and talk about taking it to a cast iron specialist-weldor to heat it, flatten the sole in the 20T press, cool it for 3 days in a bucket of lime so it doesn't warp worse than it is....then back to the machine shop for the final grind.

[Jay Knoll]

Bob

Thanks for your advice, yeah I was a bit worried about bending cast iron. The machine shop route is probably the way I'll go, but I'm thinking that I'm just going to keep throwing money at this thing and if that is such a hot idea. I'll have to find out what their hourly rate is, but there isn't a lot of industry in this town so the only machine ship I know works on power boats and you know what boat means -- Break Out Another Thousand -- so I don't know what their hourly rate will be.

And, of course, if we have to go the heat route I guess that means I'll lose the new japanning --

Anyway I"m working on my workbench -- looking over at the jointer plane sitting on a shelf and pondering

Jay

[Derek Cohen]

Jay

Take Bob's advise about a machine shop. I think that this is probably the easiest route if you want to grind it all flat. However ....

Frankly, before you do anything, sharpen up the blade and go and use the bloody thing! You are overestimating the importance of the rear of a long plane. If we are able to learn something from the design of Japanese planes (with their extended front sections ahead of the blade) and the design of the LV (bevel up) planes coming onto the market (where everything is shifted further back), then you may just find that it is the area in front of the blade that registers the plane and does most of the work.

So try it first.

Regards from Perth

Derek