Holdfast Question

[Karl Wicklund]

I used (and enjoyed using) holdfasts in a friend's shop, and now that I'm getting my own workshop set up, I'm in search of a pair. There is a local smith who can produce them, but I've got a couple of questions before I put in the order. I've not been able to ask my friend for a variety of reasons, including his failing health.

First, shank size. 1/2" or 5/8"? My bench is relatively new and does not yet have dog holes, so that will not play into. Any real difference, or does it just depend on what stock is on hand?

Second, bench compatibility. My relatively new bench is also relatively crummy. Solid, heavy, and flat, but the top is 3/4" ply covered with 3/4" MDF. When I can, I plan to construct a more traditional top, but so far it's been a suitable first bench. I'm wondering if a) the holdfast will even grab in that material and b) if so, will the MDF just blow out immediately? (Which might give me the excuse I need to get going on a better bench.)

Thanks for the help. I hope this hasn't been covered at length - I searched several threads but couldn't find satisfying info.

[Jim Koepke]

I think my hold fasts have 5/8" shanks.

As to blow out, if they are whacked hard enough when you set them, they can break sold beech. DAMHIKT

jtk

[John Coloccia]

I think my hold fasts have 5/8" shanks.

As to blow out, if they are whacked hard enough when you set them, they can break sold beech. DAMHIKT

jtk

They certainly can. That's the biggest complaint I have about my Sjoberg bench. 1" dog holes. ERROR ERROR ERROR. Not only can you not find many accessories in 1", holdfasts bust them so much easier because of the added leverage IMHO.

[Chris Griggs]

My current, craptastic bench has an MDF core with a layer of Souther Yellow Pine on top. Holdfasts do work ok on it, but I don't think they grip as well as they might on a solid wood top.

For your bench they will probably do a decent, but not ideal job grabbing. I haven't had problems with "blowout" of the MDF, but more of misshaping over repeated use.

[Jeremy Dorn]

I used 3/4" round holes in all of my benches as there are a wide array of accessories being made commerically for that size these days.

As far as holdfasts go, the ones Joel over at Tools For Woodworking sells are excellent, and not at all expensive, I think a set of them runs < $40 and they arent made of fragile cast iron.

On your depth of benchtop question, I have had issues with dog holes in tops that were 1 1/2" thick (specifically in fir/pine) deforming under use. I found that simply adding another 1 1/2" thick strip of wood under the dog holes (allowing for 3" deep holes) significantly reduced this deforming and the grip was much better.

[Brander Roullett]

As far as holdfasts go, the ones Joel over at Tools For Woodworking sells are excellent, and not at all expensive, I think a set of them runs < $40 and they arent made of fragile cast iron.

Another vote for the Gramercy Holdfasts.

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/indextool.mvc?prodid=MS-HOLDFAST.XX

I have a pair and love them. I used them at Roy's Woodwright School, and picked up a pair.

They work in 1 3/4" wood, although I am building my bench top to be a bit thicker. I made a sawbench out of some douglas fir 2x8, and drilled a 3/4" hole in the top, and it works fine just like that.

Not affiliated, just a happy customer.

badger

[Andrae Covington]

The Gramercy (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Session_ID=adee6e5942833180cfbadf4f2b be99c9&Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-HOLDFAST.XX&Category_Code=CGT) ones are 11/16", to be used with a 3/4" hole. Since you will be drilling holes to match the holdfasts after they are made, they could be any size as long as they are thick enough to withstand the use. I would recommend having them made a size just slightly under a common drill diameter. Especially in a thinner workbench top, the closer the diameter of the hole is to the diameter of the holdfast, the more vertical the holdfast will sit in the hole while in the "holding" phase. I am not certain about the physics but I think this would require less force to wedge the holdfast; therefore less force on the sidewalls of the hole, therefore less likely to blow out.:eek: Tools for Working Wood says theirs are intended for workbench tops at least 1-3/4" thick. Depending on how many layers of ply and MDF you have, you may need to add some thickness underneath where you drill the holes, if possible.

[Eric Brown]

The holdfasts from Lee Valley. Although expensive, you don't need to pound them for them to grip. They have a very rough surface to grab and plenty of power to hold. They work in 3/4" holes. My set works fine.

I also have some from Jr. Strasil that work well, and I have gotten them to hold in the flat side of a 2x4. I prefer this set for speed and really enjoy using them.

If you are drilling holes, don't forget about bench dogs. They are also quite handy.

Eric

[Steve Branam]

I have two of the Gramercy holdfasts, and they worked fine on my old plywood/MDF benchtop (1 1/2" total thickness) with 3/4" holes. The MDF edges will get worn after a while.

Now I'm using them on my 3 1/2" thick SYP Roubo bench and my 1 1/2" thick poplar portable bench, again hold fine.

They beat the heck out of the cast one I bought at a woodworking store. They're made of steel "wire" (of a gauge suitable for holding up the Golden Gate bridge), so have some very slight spring to them without risk of cracking like a cast one. The cast one is too stiff.

[glenn bradley]

Not the answer you're looking for but, for a more controlled holddown (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=148647&d=1271733085) (although slower to set and release):

[Karl Wicklund]

Thanks, folks for all the feedback so far. I appreciate the recommendations for Grammercy, etc., but I'm definitely going local on this.

So, if I figure 3/4" dog holes, 1/16" smaller than that on the shank is about right?

[Mark Maleski]

No, No, Ignore all these suggestions for holdfast sources. Stick with the local smitty! :) I can't really offer you much help on the size, other than offer an opinion that since you have no holes drilled yet you could probably experiment on scrap to match the hole to the holdfast. I've found a couple of holes, strategically drilled on the benchtop, are all that are really needed for holdfasts (but that's a personal observation, and may not suit your way of working).

Edit: ahh, you posted your response while I was typing. I'm relieved!

[harry strasil]

I use 3/4" shank holdfasts, but I drilled 13/16" holes in my bench top and apron. FWIW

[paul cottingham]

I have a set of Harry's holdfasts, they work great. Whatever dimensions he uses will work well.

"I use 3/4" shank holdfasts, but I drilled 13/16" holes in my bench top and apron. FWIW"


Thanks, folks for all the feedback so far. I appreciate the recommendations for Grammercy, etc., but I'm definitely going local on this.

So, if I figure 3/4" dog holes, 1/16" smaller than that on the shank is about right?

[David Weaver]

I used (and enjoyed using) holdfasts in a friend's shop, and now that I'm getting my own workshop set up, I'm in search of a pair. There is a local smith who can produce them, but I've got a couple of questions before I put in the order. I've not been able to ask my friend for a variety of reasons, including his failing health.

First, shank size. 1/2" or 5/8"? My bench is relatively new and does not yet have dog holes, so that will not play into. Any real difference, or does it just depend on what stock is on hand?

Second, bench compatibility. My relatively new bench is also relatively crummy. Solid, heavy, and flat, but the top is 3/4" ply covered with 3/4" MDF. When I can, I plan to construct a more traditional top, but so far it's been a suitable first bench. I'm wondering if a) the holdfast will even grab in that material and b) if so, will the MDF just blow out immediately? (Which might give me the excuse I need to get going on a better bench.)

Thanks for the help. I hope this hasn't been covered at length - I searched several threads but couldn't find satisfying info.

I also like the gramercy variety. Why not get your guy to make that type instead of forging something.

I'm in the category of someone who bought those original cast pieces of crap that sell at all of the "let's import junk now" woodworking mail order places carry. I broke them. I didn't feel like I was abusing them, I just broke them. One of them had apparently had enough and broke off to reveal very large sandy grains of metal when I was barely tapping it.

Anyway, round spring steel is cheap - like $12-$15 from mcmaster carr to get a piece big enough to easily make two holdfasts. I really like that no matter how hard I beat it, I have no worries.

FTR, for those of you who use wood benches with thin hardwood tops (I have a beech bench with 1 inch or 1.25 inches of top thickness), the gramercy holddowns work fine. Actually, they work extremely well.

[Tom Winship]

I use 3/4" shank holdfasts, but I drilled 13/16" holes in my bench top and apron. FWIW

Harry, you meant to say you "build and use 3/4" shank holdfasts", didn't you. Are you still making?

[Dan Karachio]

Not to bring this down below a certain level of taste and craftsmanship, but I bought a few Harbor Freight holdfasts for something like $2 each and they are working very well. They hold and they have yet to break. Can't go wrong if you want to try some out. I tried to find them on their site, but my God does their search suck.

[David Weaver]

Yes it does. Even though I've broken several of those types, for that price, I'd be willing to have a couple more on hand in case I needed an extra or two for something and didn't really care if they broke.

[rick carpenter]

Karl,

Two thoughts for you. #1, bore 3+" holes into your benchtop, glue in suitable benchtop wood rounds, and then bore new holdfast holes through them. #2, and not as good as #1, glue a 3+" by 1" plank of suitable benchtop wood to the bottom centered on your current holes, then finish the bore through.

Rick

[John Oliver35]

Tools for Working Wood has recently put up some very useful tips on using the Gramercy Holdfasts:
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=NEXT&StoreCode=toolstore&nextpage=/extra/blogpage.html&BlogID=251

[Tri Hoang]

My ash bench top is about 4" thick and the Gramercy don't work that well...even after roughing them up with sand paper. I'm a little hesitate to counter bore the holes from the bottom so I've been using the Veritas hold down. It works fine.

[Eric Brown]

Hi James. I love my holdfasts from JR, but felt they needed to be finished better.
Make no mistake, they worked as intended and I have no complaints there.
My finishing comprised of polishing the upper flat bat and attaching leather to the faces.
I left the round part as rough original for best gripping in the dog holes.
My dogholes are 3/4" in 3" thick walnut.
Here is picture of two with additional LV :
174367

Thanks. Eric

[Johnny Kleso]

I remember when Joel @Gramercy was making his prototypes of his holdfasts and most say they are the best I have two sets of HF holdfasts I got for less than $5 a set and they work fine but do have a very very short reach..

If I used them a lot like I think you might I would visit Joel's store http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/

[Andrae Covington]

...
...My finishing comprised of polishing the upper flat bat and attaching leather to the faces...

I hadn't thought of gluing leather on. Might have to try that with my gramercy holdfasts. Seems like I'm always fetching about for a small scrap of wood to protect the workpiece. A leather pad would be more efficient.

[Eric Brown]

The leather I used was from an old Klein toolbelt.
For some reason it seems to have shrunk over the years and no longer fit.:D

Anyway, it is about 1/4" thick and I used contact cement.
Seems to work well for me.
I also put it on the LV holdfast, vices, and some other workholding tools.

Have fun, stay warm and healthy. Eric

[James Owen]

Another vote for the Gramercy holdfasts. My saw bench is 4/4" red oak and the Gramercy holdfasts anchor a piece of wood to the top like a vacuum clamp.

[Johnny Kleso]

I ALWAYS add a small block of wood under the Pad..
Even with leather I would fear there being a depression or dent..

I find that you really need to give them a wack to hold well and the wood lets me do that with out fear..

[rick carpenter]

On your depth of benchtop question, I have had issues with dog holes in tops that were 1 1/2" thick (specifically in fir/pine) deforming under use. I found that simply adding another 1 1/2" thick strip of wood under the dog holes (allowing for 3" deep holes) significantly reduced this deforming and the grip was much better.

You could also inlet a hardwood strip into the top level with the bench surface and drill yer holes though all, the dogs only grip at the edges.

[Jeff Hamilton Jr.]

Hi James. I love my holdfasts from JR, but felt they needed to be finished better.
Make no mistake, they worked as intended and I have no complaints there.
My finishing comprised of polishing the upper flat bat and attaching leather to the faces.
I left the round part as rough original for best gripping in the dog holes.
My dogholes are 3/4" in 3" thick walnut.
Here is picture of two with additional LV :
174367

Thanks. Eric

Eric,

I have grammercy holdfasts and then had Harry make me a pair too. I second your opinion that Harry's are GREAT! They are springier and hold tremendously well. I like your idea of the buffing out and polishing -- how'd you do it?

[Eric Brown]

To clean up JR'S holdfasts I simply used a file, sanding block and green scratch pad.
Pretty easy really. I might go back and polish them I like them so much.
BTW, I also stamped "JR Strasil" on the underside as maker ID.
He's much too modest to do this himself.
Credit where credit is due.
Eric

[Don Dorn]

I've not used them so I'm the last person to judge, but I noticed a youtube video of Frank Klausz using one at a woodworking show. He was in a dovetail speed contest with someone else and was constantly slapping it with the mallet between chisel strikes. It was apparantly loosing it's grip. The bench seemed to have a solid top so I doubt I'll try them, but per this thread, many seem to be able to get them to work.

[Don C Peterson]

I have a pair of Gramercy holdfasts, a pair of Jr's holdfasts, and about four pairs that I mad myself... "I'm Don, and I'm a recovering holdfastaholic..."

The dynamics of holdfasts are kind of complicated for being such a simple tool. My first thought on reading the OP was that the benchtop might be too thin for holdfasts to work well. At just under an inch and a half for total thickness the holdfast shaft diameter would have to be very close to the hole diameter or else the HF would skew too much in the hole. The problem is that if the HF just barely fits in the dog hole, the HF doesn't tend to hold well.

I have a 2 1/2" thick bench, my dog holes are 3/4" and the Gramercy HF's work, but they are a bit too tight a fit. I can get them to hold, but it usually takes quite a hit, and then it will often take several shots to release. I used the Gramercy's happily until Jr showed me how much better a springier HF's with smaller shafts work. I often just give them a tap with my hand to tighten them and a soft tap with a mallet releases on the first try. The HF's I've made for myself were out of 5/8" round stock that I hand forged. These are my favorites (for sentimental reasons) but Jr's work every bit as well.

IMO, the screw type holdfasts aren't actually holdfasts, but clamps. They work fine but they kind of defeat the point of holdfasts which is to hold things well enough - quickly; a quick tap to set and a quick tap to release...no twisting or torquing required.

[Andrew Gibson]

I have pair of the TFWW holdfasts and they work quite well in my 2" thick red oak benchtop. They also work fairly well in my 1-3/4" ash toped saw bench, though I think they would benefit from another 3/4" of material on the saw bench... or maybe just straighter holes.
I think one of the most important things for the holdfast is that the holes are square to the surface. A little of in one direction or the other and the holdfast just does not work as well.
I also put a pad of Leather on my holdfasts. More testing is needed before I don't use a wooden pad on an important work piece. I picked up a scrap piece of 1/8" thick leather at a Flea Market from a belt maker/leather worker. If you are looking for leather, I would suggest trying to find a belt/wallet/holster maker near you. you are sure to find one that will give you all the scraps you need for lining vises and holdfasts for little to nothing.

[Johnny Kleso]

I use my HF Holdfasts in my 3/4" square holes with a 4º angle..

Buts thats me :)

[Karl Wicklund]

Well, after a longish delay, I took delivery on the holdfasts. The fellow hadn't made one before, and had made the angle too wide. He's reworking them after the New Year, and is looking forward to it. I think he's got a few others interested in a set of holdfasts, and wants to get it right.

I appreciate all the suggestions re: Grammercy, etc, but besides dealing locally as I mentioned above, I enjoy the aesthetic of a traditional iron holdfast - simple, solid, no moving parts. Perhaps there are equally effective options out there, I woodwork for pleasure first, efficiency second. (Of course, my 'efficient' construction lumber/MDF bench was slapped together in a couple of afternoons. Don't come looking to me for consistency. :))

Regarding the depth of benchtop, I suspect I'll need to add a strip of hardwood beneath the dog holes for added grip. I'll try it as it, first.

I'll post results.

[harry strasil]

Here's a picture of what I make if it will help.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/holdfast.jpg

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to All

Jr