Dovetails - are some humans just not able to make them?

[Dan Karachio]

If so, I think I may be one of them. I have my LN saw, I have my chisels, I have my Cosman DVD and marker guide... I have practiced. I have everything a 19th century craftsman would ever need to make the most beautiful dovetails, but mine are absolutely awful. Have your four year old attempt dovetails and you will get the picture. I will not show pictures, my shame is too great.

I want to do this, I want to master this, but are there people who lack the genes to pull this off? It's a little far away, but I am considering the Philadelphia Furniture Workshop's two day dovetail class, but what if I am so stupid and unskilled I sit there for two days while all my classmates make great dovetails and I continue to suck? For the same price as the course I can buy a jig, cop out and route my way to soulless evenly spaced dovetails and never see a nice thin pin in my life.

[Mark Salomon]

Don't give up. They just require lots and lots of practice. Where do you live? maybe a creeker who lives nearby and is comfortable with dovetails can spend an afternoon making you a little more comfortable with them. I'm in Sacramento.

[Steve Thomas]

It seems that way some times.
I had a student that couldn't cut to a line to save his life. then I read somewhere about some people having dominant hands and eyes that were different... I think it was Chris S.
He now leans a little further over his work and bingo! a straight line. first time too.

[Steve Thomas]

yep... gee it was three years ago.

[Adam Cherubini]

Dan,

Take the class and Mario or Alan will show you. I think it's a lot to ask of us to learn all these skills alone. This is certainly not our history. The guy in the 19th c was formally trained by a master craftsman who probably had 20 years of experience. You've assembled the tools. You have the desire. Complete the puzzle and go learn from the master.

Videos are good. Havng somebody watch you, correct your technique, and then watch you do that is worth every penny in my opinion.

Adam

[Stuart Tierney]

I don't know, but it's not inconceivable for a normally competent and coherent human being to be incapable of doing something that requires a modicum of skill to accomplish.

I've seen it before, not with dovetails, but some folks just don't get "it" without a heck of a lot of practice, and subsequently wasted materials.

Being a sparky, we had a coupe apprentices that just could not strip cable without making a hash of it. Damaged copper, cut core wires, strip too much or too little, etc, etc. Seems like an easy task, but still, plenty of folks can't do it.

(FWIW, it takes a decent sparky about a second to strip off a neat half inch of insulation on any cable that will fit in the jaws of their pliers, no damage to the inner copper wire.)

So, when we hit one of the kids who just couldn't manage it, they got put in the corner with a pair of pliers, a drum of cable and told not to come back until they could show us 20 perfectly stripped bits of cable, all done in a row.

Boring, painful and frustrating, but it solved the problem. It also gave said kid a LOT of confidence, and subsequent things they needed to do quickly, reliably and efficiently were attacked with gusto and usually done right after only a few tries.

So, get in there with a length or two of cheapo wood, 1/2" thick and 2" wide and make lots of single tail/socket dovetails until you get there.

If you can wangle it, having someone who can make a dovetail at will to watch over your shoulder can help.

Just making cuts on the line/either side/split and lots of them will help.

What I am saying I guess that breaking down things, practicing the heck out of them until they become second nature may prove to be the right medicine and skills/confidence will flow onto other 'difficult' operations.

(At least, I hope that's what will happen. I am one of those insidious and despised people who can do pretty much anything off the bat, first try and then do it again for good measure.)

What Steven says there is also true, and might be causing some troubles. I am right handed, left eye dominant.

I don't know if it's mentioned, but the way to find eye dominance is to take a CD, look through the hole at arms length and focus on a word. Then, keeping the hole centred over the word, bring it to your face.

Whichever eye the CD ends up on is your dominant eye. Apparently you can change eye dominance, but I haven't done that. When I tried I ended up getting eyes that can independently focus at will. Very useful to have one eye in a viewfinder focused on what's in there, the other eye tracking the world. Works with a rifle scope, works with a camera. Handy, but I'd rather have the right eye dominance at times...

Anyway, keep at it and do break down the steps until you get each one nailed down right. Once you get to the point where each step is consistently accomplished, it's no big step to a complete, neat and tight dovetail.

Good luck with it, and report back!

Stu.

[Don Dorn]

Actually, I find it a bit refreshing to find someone who tells the truth about his/her struggle toward accomplishing this task as opposed to the "this is my first" where they rival Klausz or Cosmans. Suppose it's possible, but certainly not common and I've always suspected that many of the "firsts" were not actually the first.

I agree with the others - it just takes practice. For me, I simply took a long piece and did one or two a day of singles until they fit well, then went to two and so on. Straight line cuts are important so practicing that will get you a long ways. You didn't say whether you are pins or tails first, but the Cosman reference and the skinny pins tells me you are doing tails first.

Having learned pins first, I can say that it was easier for me because it makes it easier to use it as a template and mark with a pencil ala Klausz. That said - I understand your draw to the skinny pins as I'm working at that too by doing it Cosmans way. For me, it's tougher but we can't give up. Use 1/2" wood that isn't too hard and get at it. Like others, I look forward to hearing of your success.

[George Beck]

My great uncle Walter was cabinet maker in the 20's and 30's. I used to play in his shop as a little boy. I was amazed that he made simple through dovetails mostly by eye. He would mark the location of each tail (usually with a template) lay the saw against his thumb and cut. It amazed me! I asked how he could do that. He explained that when he started they would have to cut dovetails for boxes of maybe 40 a day(thats 8-16 saw cuts per corner x 4 corners or as many as 2,000 saw cuts a day). This for several years. Well ya got good at it. Especially since in those days cabinet makers were paid by piece not by time worked so one had to be quick. I would have starved to death. When I learned dovetailing, which more appropriately was learning sawing, I would take a 6 in board and mark straight lines maybe an 1/8 apart and saw them down the line and to a line. I would then flip the board over and do the other end. I would then cut the lines off and do the exercise again. I did this every morning for probably 3 weeks. When I felt I could reasonably follow a line, I started over with angled cuts. I did this for probably 2 months, every morning just like exercise. I got pretty good at it.
Recently I completed a little hand dovetailed box and before I began, I went through my little exercise to practice my stroke. I don't cut dovetails everyday so things get rusty. My long winded rant is to make this point: Even though we have great tools these days and can duplicate or even improve on the tools of my great uncle, we don't work in the same conditions. The tools are better, the skills have to be developed. There was a reason Jack Nicklaus
hit 500 balls everyday. It takes practice, it takes patience, it takes a stubborn attitude. Of course, after so many saw cuts the saw was dull and needed sharpened, which is an entirely different set of skills to learn.
Keep the faith, you will get it.

[John Coloccia]

It's easier to mark skinny pins doing it pins first. Tails first you need a long knife to mark them.

re: everything else
Where do your dovetails go wrong? Are you not sawing properly? Is your saw wandering and you're getting a curved cut? Can't pare to a ling to save your life? Dull chisels crushing the wood? Don't know what straight up and down looks like?

Everything has a solution and a way of practicing to improve it, but you have to know what's going wrong first. My suggestion is this: do you have a router and a dovetail jig? Take a board and make, say, the pins. That's you're master board. Now take another board and make tails to match. After you've made the tails, and they don't fit, take it over to the dovetail jig and run the router through it with the power OFF. That's a nice guide that will show you exactly where all the problems are and where you need to concentrate. You can sit there and keep make tail, after tail, after tail until you get it right. There's no reason to keep cutting pins AND tails as that's just a waste of time and materials.

The idea is to get at least half the joint to start fitting. Once you get to that point, I almost guarantee that when you make the full joint, it will either fit or you'll be able to tell immediately where it's going wrong.

Just my opinion.

[Dan Karachio]

Thanks everyone. My problems are a little sloppiness on just about every thing. I was trying to be a little funny and had a bad day yesterday. I may not be chronically challenged here. I think what I have been doing is analogous to trying to practice/play a Bach piece before I have learned my scales. Meaning, I never spent time just cutting lines and singles. Actually, I had cut a single or two a while back and one was pretty good, but then I jumped right to a 5" board and trying to make nice triples with thin pins. Tails first, pins first, I honestly don't care and like all the sharpening information out here, the overflow of information and opinion is enough to drive a newbie nuts - it doesn't help. I'll try both ways on my singles and whichever works for me will be my preferred method.

So, thanks for sending me to the chalkboard to write out the alphabet 1000 times. I am sure this is exactly what I need! Then I will take that class.

P.S. Don, if we find proof that some of these "my first dovetails" are really not, can we start a class action suit for pain and suffering? :-)

[Zach England]

Try being visually impaired and doing it...very frustrating.

[John Shuk]

The ability to do some simple things does escape certain people. I'm one of them. Practice probably won't hurt though.
I hate when I suck at things....I do though.

[Tom Scott]

Practice sawing and then go take a class. Everyone needs the practice to get good. As far as learning what to do, different people learn differently. For some, reading about it is enough. For others, watching a video is sufficient. And there are the hands-on people that learn by doing. Also, there is no real substitute for seeing someone do it in person, explaining as they go, and then pointing out tricks and subtleties to help you...even if you think you know.

[Jerome Hanby]

If so, I think I may be one of them. I have my LN saw, I have my chisels, I have my Cosman DVD and marker guide... I have practiced. I have everything a 19th century craftsman would ever need to make the most beautiful dovetails, but mine are absolutely awful. Have your four year old attempt dovetails and you will get the picture. I will not show pictures, my shame is too great.

I want to do this, I want to master this, but are there people who lack the genes to pull this off? It's a little far away, but I am considering the Philadelphia Furniture Workshop's two day dovetail class, but what if I am so stupid and unskilled I sit there for two days while all my classmates make great dovetails and I continue to suck? For the same price as the course I can buy a jig, cop out and route my way to soulless evenly spaced dovetails and never see a nice thin pin in my life.

Your post was written in well formed English, no words misspelled, and you conveyed your meaning clearly and succinctly. My conclusion is you are not dumb. Since I have similar "problems", I can only conclude that problems with dovetails must denote mental and genetic superiority! :p

[bob blakeborough]

It seems that way some times.
I had a student that couldn't cut to a line to save his life. then I read somewhere about some people having dominant hands and eyes that were different... I think it was Chris S.
He now leans a little further over his work and bingo! a straight line. first time too.


Try being visually impaired and doing it...very frustrating.

Well that explains a bit for me I think... I am right handed, but also blind in my right eye. I find I am always leaning right when I am praticing to try and use my left eye. Maybe I am going to have to try and learn how to saw left handed now. When I was a kid I taught myself to shoot a rifle left handed because I couldn't sight right handed, and now it is just second nature, so maybe sawing will be the same? I hope...

[John A. Callaway]

sawing is key...as many have stated with much longer replies... One thing that helps is to mark your cuts on both sides of the board with your marker. this will help you see where you are losing your cut to not drifting from plumb and level and side to side from your line...

I am a believer in the Cosman method. his sawing video is great. I imagine the video Chris schwarz and LN just released is as equally informative.

and dont be afraid to post pics... somebody might be able to help you by looking at your work.

I went from this
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2095.jpg

to this...
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2662.jpg

All it takes is practice. and patience.
( still havent attempted a half blind yet ... )

[Zach England]

Well that explains a bit for me I think... I am right handed, but also blind in my right eye. I find I am always leaning right when I am praticing to try and use my left eye. Maybe I am going to have to try and learn how to saw left handed now. When I was a kid I taught myself to shoot a rifle left handed because I couldn't sight right handed, and now it is just second nature, so maybe sawing will be the same? I hope...


I can't really say because I don't have that problem. My problem is low acuity (to the point of being legally blind). I have to outline my knife lines with pencil because I can only see them when I am very close (inches) from the workpiece. I can only see the pencil lines within about a foot and have to be even closer to watch the saw track, which makes for a very uncomfortable sawing stance. I'll get it someday.

[Prashun Patel]

Dan-
Can you post some pix? It might help us diagnose some specifics to work on.

I too am learning to handcut dovetails. One thing that's helped is the 'cut-one-dovetail-joint-a-day' practice. Unlike any other technique in woodworking, this technique is primarily about muscle memory. It's like learning an instrument or sport; you just have to practice.

You (meaning *I*) will gain confidence quicker by 'playing easier pieces': use pine (easy to cut and chop). Make the pieces thinner (1/2-5/8"). Make the tails and pins wide, and only do one or two per joint. This allows you to really focus on what yr weakness is (for me, it's cutting straight up and down) and to see easily how to fix it (I love rasps). If you do a multi-tail side, it gets overwhelming to diagnose and fix.

Another cheat trick I've found to help in pin marking (I'm tails-first), is to cut a 1/16-1/8" deep rabbet on the inside of the tail board that goes down to the tail bottom. This allows the pin board to seat in nice and tight when you go to mark it. It also makes cutting and paring the tails marginally easier.

Anyway, please post pix. MISERY LOVES COMPANY!!!

[John A. Callaway]

I found poplar way easier to work than pine....In my learning to cut tails thread every encouraged me to stay away from pine because is almost too soft...

[Prashun Patel]

Structurally, perhaps. But for practice it's worked fine for me (knots notwithstanding). It pares and shapes easily. It speed up the 'tuning' part of the process for me, so I'm spending more time on saw practice. Anyway, there are better dovetailers (read, EVERYONE) than I; just sayin' what's worked f'me.


I found poplar way easier to work than pine....In my learning to cut tails thread every encouraged me to stay away from pine because is almost too soft...

[Mark Maleski]

Take the class and Mario or Alan will show you. I think it's a lot to ask of us to learn all these skills alone. This is certainly not our history. The guy in the 19th c was formally trained by a master craftsman who probably had 20 years of experience. ... Videos are good. Havng somebody watch you, correct your technique, and then watch you do that is worth every penny in my opinion.

Absolutely right, and I was going to say the same thing. I'll also add that I took a carving class from Mario Rodriguez at PFW a year ago. At times I fell behind the others in the class (I've never been worried about woodworking quickly) and he stepped in to provide additional guidance/training to help me with the element I was struggling with.

[Dan Karachio]

Thanks Jerome, I appreciate it! However, right now I am a little giddy that the MAN (the Cosman!) himself replied to my thread! :D

If you look at John A. Callaway's pic, that first one is mine. He certainly worked through it and his bench drawers must be a big source of pride.

I am now convinced I know what I have done wrong. I have tried to skip over really learning the fundamentals. I am going to saw to and split lines and try singles. I will NOT try something more advanced until I can do these basic tasks. Again, I think the musical instrument analogy is a good one here. If I fail, I will "seek professional help"! :-)

[Don Dorn]

Well, I've never met RC but it was nice of him to reply to your plight. I have called him a couple of times when stuck on something (once on skinny pins, once on sharpening) and he is always very nice, helpful and non-condescending.

I think I'm so used to another way, it's hard to change, but he is right in that persistance pays off. Call him when you discover a consistant roadblock. Even though you would think it impossible, he seems to understand what you're saying and can give the nudge necessary. I also always seem to pick up something else with another viewing of his videos.

Very anxious to watch and hear of your progression - there are allot of people rooting for you.

[geoff wood]

sawing to a line is obviously very important... but one must have very precise layout, if you are using a cheap combination square/bevel square from a box store, you'll be chasing mistakes around forever.

[Brian Vaughn]

Speaking as one of the ambi-ocular people, I can tell you it has it's strengths and weaknesses. I definately have a more dominant side on any given day, however it can change. One way I've found to help is to only wear one contact on whatever eye I want to be the dominant one. As a pistol shooter it really threw me the first time I figured that one out at the range. But shooting a rifle, being able to see both through the scope and through the other eye can be nice....sometimes.

But when I'm trying to follow a line, I do have to close or cover one eye because my brain will go with whatever eye gives me a clearer view. When I'm trying to look down the top of a saw, the clearer more complete view is the other eye looking at the side of things, so I've put more than my share of wandering lines to lumber. One way that's helped is to put a tinted lens on the left frame of my safety glasses. I still have a view of what's going on, but my brain invariably picks the light-colored eye for the reference view.

[Dan Karachio]

Just a follow up here. I never expected to have so many replies to this. Thanks! I have realized that while I have all the tools and instructional materials, I also have a pretty good idea of what to do, but what I have not used is patience. Last night I put out a few boards and practiced splitting lines, cutting to the inside or outside of the line... and I noticed an improvement in my abilities in a half hour. The LN saw sure helps. I think my chisel skills are also a problem, so that is next. The idea of a guide block to keep things straight/plumb was submitted to me and that is also very helpful in training my head and hands. I'm itching to get to some single pin practice pieces, but will "reward" myself with that once I feel better with cutting and chiseling. Who knows, some day I may post a pic of my dovetails! :)

[John A. Callaway]

It's all about keeping your upper arm and lower arm moving in a straight line perpendicular to your chest.... Stick that top finger out over the handle of the saw so it points down the back of the saw...

Practice keeping the saw plumb... straight up and down....and you will find that to be pretty easy if you keep your arm straight .... the tougher one is to make sure your saw stays straight horizontally ...i.e. left to right. This is the common area people mess up... this is why I recommend marking both sides of the board starting out... you will see that while you might go down the line on the front of the board... odds are you will drift away from the line across the back of the board as you work your way down to the line...

This where you fine tune your own method and practice it to establish a serious muscle memory.... and when you start cutting DTs in a piece that isn't practice... you take out a few scraps and you cut a set on those first.... then move on to your work... The first dovetail joint of the day should always be cut on a few pieces of scrap...

[Prashun Patel]

IMHO (I'm sure you've experienced this): "Sharpening Skill" begets "Chisel Skills".

[David Keller NC]

Just a follow up here. I never expected to have so many replies to this. Thanks! I have realized that while I have all the tools and instructional materials, I also have a pretty good idea of what to do, but what I have not used is patience. Last night I put out a few boards and practiced splitting lines, cutting to the inside or outside of the line... and I noticed an improvement in my abilities in a half hour. The LN saw sure helps. I think my chisel skills are also a problem, so that is next. The idea of a guide block to keep things straight/plumb was submitted to me and that is also very helpful in training my head and hands. I'm itching to get to some single pin practice pieces, but will "reward" myself with that once I feel better with cutting and chiseling. Who knows, some day I may post a pic of my dovetails! :)

Dan - I'm one of those folks that has a dominant hand/dominant eye problem. Specifically, I saw right-handed but my vision is most definitely dominated by my left eye. What I'll say about this is that you don't have to saw left-handed, you just have to train yourself to use your left eye and your right hand. What helped me ENORMOUSLY is to buy a el-cheapo light on a stand at Home Depot, then to watch the line that I've laid out while I saw. That's not easy to do unless you've got brilliantly intense lighting on the line. Once you've done "mindful sawing" a few times where you're watching the line as you saw, your muscle coordination is trained, and it's no longer necessary to watch so carefully. But at the start, at least in my experience, it is necessary (to watch the line).

[john brenton]

That's right. I was a complete disaster when I first started plumbing. I couldn't cut pipe to size, I couldn't get angles right...etc etc. Then just one day you get it.

As they say: "The harder the battle, the sweeter the victory". Your first perfect dovetailed drawer or box is going to feel so awesome. Then you're going to screw up the next one...BUT at least you'll know you can do it.

[Tim Dorcas]

Lots of good stuff here. I like the Rob C. way of laying out and cutting dovetails. Two things stand out to me when making dovetails.

1) Sawing accurately to a line. Honestly I think with a bit of practice, most people can do this.

2) Laying out the tails to the pin board. I think this is where a lot of people fail. If the board isn't laid out correctly or it moves even a little, everything else is downhill.

Six months ago I saw a jig that would hold the tail and pin boards without you having to do anything. That eliminates both the layout issue as well as the boards moving. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find it since. I will update if I manage to locate the website.

Keep at it.

Tim

[Jacob Mac]

Also, and this probably is not worth mentioning, but your stock has to be milled perfectly, or as close as you can get to it. When I practice, I get lazy sometimes and do not mill my practice boards to tight enough tolerances. And it shows in the final product.

[Chris Griggs]

Practice sawing square and plumb, then practice dovetail cuts without cutting dovetails themselves.

Remember there are two types of saw cuts when dovetailing. There's the tail cut that NEEDs to be square across the end grain, but can be just about any angle in the other direction. Then there's the pin cut, which NEEDS to be plumb, but can be just about any angle across the end grain.

I cut tails first, and one of the biggest things that has helped me to improve was to focus on the squareness of the cuts and worry less about cutting the correct dovetail angle. Regardless of whether you do tails-first or pins-first, if you make those initial cuts DEAD square (or plumb if pins first), all the following steps come together much easier.

It's been said before, and I'll say it again. Making good dovetails is first and foremost about accurate sawing. So practice sawing... then practice some more. And once you can cut square and/or plumb, attempt another set of dovetails. They will improve...

[Chris Griggs]

( still havent attempted a half blind yet ... )

One thing that surprised me recently is that I find it's actually easier to get clean half-blind dovetails. They take longer to cut and clear out the waste, but there's half as much showing in the end, which gives you more room for error and more areas to undercut if needed.

Now, I'm far from an expert, but given how great your through dovetails look (definitely better then mine) , I'm guessing that your half-blinds would be just as good right off the bat.

[John A. Callaway]

One thing that surprised me recently is that I find it's actually easier to get clean half-blind dovetails. They take longer to cut and clear out the waste, but there's half as much showing in the end, which gives you more room for error and more areas to undercut if needed.

Now, I'm far from an expert, but given how great your through dovetails look (definitely better then mine) , I'm guessing that your half-blinds would be just as good right off the bat.


I will post a thread some time in the next week... I do plan to attempt them... Just hadn't got around to the practice session...