One Saw a Week: 22-inch Riverside Tool Company No. 6 panel saw (Disston No. 7), 12 TP

[Jonathan McCullough]

The Commencement

So, Daddy has a saw problem that looks like this:

http://i575.photobucket.com/albums/ss199/Jonathryn/One%20Saw%20a%20Week/Library-7840.jpg

And that’s really most of it. Honest. Besides the stuff that’s already cleaned up. It followed me home and lived in the garage for a while, and before I knew what was happening, it had a litter in a plastic BJ’s box. Now I’ve got a mess of Trade Marked Warranted Superior Taper Ground Extra Superfine London Select Extra Fancy Spring Steel uncoiling in the garage on to the walls, in cupboards, sproinging comically down the stairs, and generally getting out of hand. When my wife saw it, she too cast kittens, but has come to expect it of me.

Well it’s time to clean the rust off these, sharpen them up, fix the horns on the totes, put them into service, and figure out what to do with them. There’s no better way to familiarize yourself with a saw—or any other tool—than by cleaning it off and putting it to working order, and then using it. Occasionally I’ve seen some “what saw is this?” posts and I’d have to say that I’ve been pleasantly surprised by keeping an open mind. “Warranted Superior” doesn’t equate with “warranted inferior” by any stretch of the imagination. As I like to say, some of my best saws are Superior.

After a day of writing, while the weather holds up, I like to go outside and wait for the kids to get back from school, and given the half-hour leeway the bus company requires, I figure I could probably keep one eye cocked for the bus and another cleaning up old saws. By the time summer rolls around again, maybe I’ll have enough done to clear up the backlog, and by creating an online reference for oddball saw brands, maybe people will be less hesitant to buy up those old off-brand saws and keep them useful.

Here’s the first contestant: A 22-inch Riverside Tool Co. No. 6 panel saw. After eschewing anything less than a full he-man 26-inch hand saw size, I’ve been on a sort of panel saw kick—something big enough as a bench saw that will easily go clean through something thick like a 4 x 4 if necessary.

http://i575.photobucket.com/albums/ss199/Jonathryn/One%20Saw%20a%20Week/Library-7838.jpg

The handle does not appear to be original to the saw—there’s an alternative and non-corresponding hole pattern punched in the saw plate for a different set of saw bolts—nonetheless this beechwood handle is well suited, attractive, comfortable, and hangs well with the saw. The medallion nut was missing, but medallions for department- or hardware-store saws were usually “Warranted Superior” eagles, and I’ll try to find a donor saw with something that will suit. The rest of the saw nuts were of the raised, tapered shoulder variety. On closer inspection you’d find I fashioned a new upper horn. Everything about the saw plate and the handle screams Disston No. 7, from the somewhat slight taper grinding right down to the way the steel reacts to a file. The etch came up pretty well, and although etches are notoriously difficult to capture with a photograph, this one was fairly photogenic and has the standard language of the day:

RIVERSIDE TOOL CO. X WARRANTED CAST STEEL X TRADE MARK X R.T. CO. No. 6 X PATENT GROUND X NEW YORK

http://i575.photobucket.com/albums/ss199/Jonathryn/One%20Saw%20a%20Week/Library-7839.jpg

I’ve not been able to find a lot of information about the Riverside Tool Company of New York—the ubiquitous Worthpoint.com page pipes up with a comment about it being “an unusual label.” If anything, this is probably a turn of the century Disston product etched for an East Side Manhattan or Hudson River Department store. There appears to be a either a falls on the etch—maybe upstate, but there were a lot of sawmakers up there at the time--or it's been identified as an anvil. Beats me. If you know anything, do share.

It was pretty sharp but I knocked off the corrosion and inevitable tooth dings with a little minimal filing and it’s a pleasure to use. The 12 TPI cuts exceptionally smooth with a saw pattern on the kerf that could be mistaken for growth rings. It will make a nice toolbox saw or a nice handy benchtop panel saw. Kinda funny—the folks who sold it to me smiled and rolled their eyes when I picked it up. When I bought it they looked pleased as punch, as though they’d spun a rusty old saw into gold.

[george wilson]

You are a truffle rooting SAW PIG!!!:)

[Jonathan McCullough]

You ought to talk--in the late stages of the disorder these pupae will eventually metamorphose into Addis-flies. Now that's an infestation.

[David Weaver]

High demand brand name carving tools in need of rehab - is that the ultimate in unending "need that, too, don't have it yet" money spending and future time obligation?

[Jim Koepke]

And I thought I had a lot of saws laying around.

It must be an addiction. I still look for good ones when ever a bunch are up for sale.

Same with chisels, gouges, braces, auger bit, planes and too many other things.

jtk

[george wilson]

I seem to be a carving tool pig. Have about 350. But I can quit anytime I want to. Really!!

[David Weaver]

George, I once saw someone say that an experienced trade carver may have 400 carving tools.

Maybe it was you who said that?

If it wasn't, you have room for at least 50 more :) At today's prices for good carving tools, that'll cost a mint.

[george wilson]

Fortunately,I started going to the Pa. flea markets in 1970,when you could pick them up for a few dollars each. Once,I got a set of pre war Addis carving tools for $75.00,in their original roll. Never used. That was in the late 70's/early 80's,but still just $6.25 each. And,they were worth more in a matched set.

Now they want $40.00-$50.00 for a worn down,beat but not sweet gouge.

[David Weaver]

Imagine being in the position of most of us on here, George!

Until recently, I tried to avoid carving, but you can't forever, especially building tools.

I've spent way more than I ever wanted to already on carving tools, and the local supplier of tools for me (rockler):
1) doesn't really have anything in carving tools that I want or don't already have
2) the price of the two-cherries carving tools after their markup is obnoxious - like $60 or $70 for a gouge in some cases.

I like the pfeil tools a lot better, but they're not cheap, either. The addis and buck tools that I've found are nice, too, but it seems like there are WAY too many sellers on ebay who are starting to copy a couple of individuals who, in my opinion, are out to just find suckers listing tools at reprehensible prices. I wish ebay would go back to charging more for listing and less on final value to knock that stuff off.

Does anyone have an opinion on stubai tools? They seem to be a little less expensive, but they look like they have the nice trimmer profile and crisper lines that the pfeil tools do. I haven't been able to find them in person, though.

[Jonathan McCullough]

David, if you're trying to chide me, I resemble that remark.

Honestly, of all the tool-related disorders, it's one of the least expensive and most rewarding. Most of the saws in that plastic tub cost $3, some less when they come with a pile of other rusty "junque." I spoke to a toolmonger the other day who told me: "I had about a thousand of those. Couldn't give them away. So I threw them away." Makes you want to cry. There are a lot of savvy tool hunters around here (I call them The Vikings because they raid, rape, pillage, and lay waste to all the best stuff within a three hundred mile radius) and they'll pass on a lot of my saws because they just don't have the time or desire to sand, spray, polish, fix a handle, whatever.

Don't have experience with Stubai, or Addis even, but I do have and can recommend Dastra as well as Ashley Iles. They feel somewhat more substantial than their Pfeil counterparts, and despite using completely different types of steel, they take an excellent edge. I'm just wetting my feet in that madness.

[David Weaver]

I'm just wetting my feet in that madness.

Carving tools are an endless mind melter!!! (well, and wallet melter, too).

I have a couple of bargain saws (two of them are actually great no-names that look like disston 7s), but I have to admit that I have a couple that I gave $65 each for, too. I guess nobody should say that in public.

I did not enjoy saws until I stopped using the table saw, but they've grown on me, and now I have zero interest in turning on the tablesaw. I wish someone would pop up at my door with a pickup truck saying how much they wanted a table saw.

I think you did well! The worst thing about it is the urge to clean each of them and reshape the teeth, it's hard on the file supply - especially on the older high quality saws that are hard. A $3 no-name rip saw that I found two weeks ago needed the teeth jointed to half height, and it ruined two unused nicholson files in the process of shaping the teeth. The files cost 3 times as much as the saw :(

And btw...not chiding you, but egging you on into carving tools, too. I should probably badmouth them all, though, until I have bought everything I can think of using :)

[Jonathan McCullough]

Those are my observations too, but I don't think there's any shame in paying $65 for a good new or vintage hand saw. Learning how to clean, fix, and sharpen these takes time, materials, and last but not least, some amount of skill; $65 sounds like a bargain when considering the work some of these lost pups need.


I wish someone would pop up at my door with a pickup truck saying how much they wanted a table saw.

No doubt. Mine is powerful, well tuned, has all sorts of doodads, and I hate it. Hate It. It's dangerous and spews out a choking cloud of microfine particles. It dominates the garage like a cast iron miasma of self reproach, with tendrils reaching out and stinking up the place with all sorts of jigs and crap that take up even more room.


The worst thing about it is the urge to clean each of them and reshape the teeth, it's hard on the file supply.

Try charging the files regularly with chalk, and cleaning the file with a file brush. It'll keep the steel from clogging the files and make them last a little longer.

[Ray Gardiner]

Hi Jonathan,

There are two Riverside Tool Companies listed in the EAIA directory,
Also Riverside was a brand used by Mongomery Ward on some of their tools.

The likely one of the two listed is this one...

Riverside Tool Co New York (R.T. Co in an anvil figure)

The EAIA also notes that they marked levels which appear to have been made by Stanley, so it's possible someone else made their saws as well. Disston is a fair guess.

Regards
Ray

[Jonathan McCullough]

Is there any other information on Riverside? Did they have an address or hometown? Manhattan (New York)?

[Ray Gardiner]

Hi Johnathan,

Yes, well.... funnily enough I have been searching in vain for exactly that... but did turn up some interesting conflicting and sometimes misleading information...

http://www.mjdtools.com/tools/list_1014/133466.htm shows a
"Draw Knife by Riverside Tool Co New York, with description that they were a New York City Hardware Dealer in the first quarter of the 19th century. "

I suspect that the above description is wrong in that your saw is more likely early 1900's rather than 1800's :)

Rose Antique Tools has a Riverside No 5 Backsaw, that is claimed to have been sold by Montgomery Ward. ???
http://www.roseantiquetools.com/store/page96.html

Here is an expanding auger bit by Riverside Tools, that just lists their location as New York..
http://www.mjdtools.com/tools/list_1261/168197.htm

http://www.backsaw.net/pics/168197_lg.jpg

Too many Riverside's ... from California to Illinois

Hope you have better luck...

Regards
Ray

[Rick Markham]

Now I am going to need carving tools... :eek: This tool building thing is getting expensive. David start looking at metal lathes and mills... The carving tools start to look reasonable. I'm gonna need to sell my house, find some shop space somewhere. It's ok, I can live out of my car ;)

[David Weaver]

I very briefly looked at mills and lathes while I was building my second plane. I would love to have one of each, but I can't yet justify them. I'm just going to have to be good with my hands and dream about doing the rough metalwork with the right tools.

The first three planes, I built with a belt sander (I used the drum on the end of it to hog metal) and a cordless drill, otherwise entirely hand tools, but I have a drill press now, so I feel like I'm far ahead!

Roughing the mouth of a plane with a 1/4" thick O1 bottom with a cordless drill was a pain, as was making a sacrificial guide to try to keep holes from on the steel from wandering with a cordless drill.

[Marv Werner]

Hi Jonathan,

Nice pile of saws you have there. Have done a few myself. I see lots of hours of labor in that pile.

The wanna-bee No.7 saw you pictured appears to have a No.7 handle from a larger saw. No.7 handles used on panel saws had only three saw screws including the medallion. Saws with 24" blades and shorter were in the panel saw category. Nice job on your horn repair. What did you use for the new wood? Not always having Beech for a repair, I've found that Maple matches up quite well. And what did you use to refinish the handle? Is that the original finish or did you strip it down to bare wood?

Hope you will post some pictures of some of the other saws you have there after you recondition them.

Marv

[Jonathan McCullough]

Hi Marv,

Good point you have there about the four screws, but the original also had four screws, so go figure. Just conjecture, but it seems that when the major saw manufacturers made saws for department stores, they found ways to distinguish their own (competing) saws from the store brands. Darryl Weir is selling a Keen Kutter K-88 that he identifies as being much like a Disston No. 16, but it has a skew back. Is it a No. 112 saw plate with a No. 16 handle? Maybe.

I'm using a variety of woods to put the horns back, sand the whole handle while waiting for the school bus, and just use several coats of very diluted Minwax Red Oak to blend in the colors, then some coats of shellac, then paste wax. A bit of sawdust and wood glue patches some holes and -- shhhh -- if I can't blend some things I use a magic marker. It actually works pretty well.

Some people are minimalist in their repairs, but I have no compunction whatever about using drastic measures to bring these old saws back from the brink, especially in consideration of the fact that they'd eventually just turn to moldy, rotten wood and piles of pitted rust scales if I hadn't bought and repaired them. I should take some "before" pictures when I do these.

[David Weaver]

Those are my observations too, but I don't think there's any shame in paying $65 for a good new or vintage hand saw.


they were #12s with everything but the etch and no tote damage at all, no broken teeth, no pitting, no kinks or bends and very full plates. An extravagance.

I would probably buy more of them if I could find them with full plates like that, but I would feel some shame again because I have no need for them, and they don't make me work any faster than I did with D8s and some atkins saws :o

[Marv Werner]

Jonathan

I work my saws pretty much the same as you do and feel the same way about doing some major fix'ns. However, I do tend to back off a bit when I encounter an obvious collector saw. Most anything made during the 20th century can easily end up on my list. Yes, a magic marker does quite well at times. I've done some of my best looking saw handles using leather dye. I don't like Minwax stains. Usually disappointing in some way or other. The dye soaks into the wood, while stains just lay on the surface.

Yes, before and after pictures are always interesting. I sometimes forget to take them, then wish I had.

I always file a saw that I recondition. I'd even refile a new saw. It is rare to find a saw that cuts as it should, at least as I think it should. Daryl Weir is one of the best, if not Thee best saw doctor around. I really admire his work. There are others who are very good at doing the handles, but Daryl does it all.

I'd post a picture of a before and after saw project but I don't find this site user friendly when it comes to posting pictures. Or I'm just dumb. I usually just upload directly from my picture files on my computer. They don't have URL,s as far as I know. Does this site consider a URL the same as a picture file name? To my knowledge, a URL comes from a website not directly from someone's computer files. Apples and oranges as far as I know, but I'm obviously not a computer geek. I have a lot of pictures in albums in the Google Picasa program. That might work.

Marv

[Marv Werner]

Ok, I think I might have figured it out.....lets see how much of a geek I actually am....:D

[Jonathan McCullough]

Very nice work. That extra wheat carving would definitely turn heads since you hardly ever see that on back saws. Nice to see it done so well, too.

David: Looking around at the market, $65 for a clean, sharp, full-size No. 12 in working order is a steal. I may have one lurking around under a very old Keen Kutter etch that has a No. 7 handle, but the taper grinding is much more pronounced, so I'm thinking it's really either a No. 12 or a No. 16. Personally, I'm not sold on the handles for No. 12's. They're kinda big, kinda further from the action, kinda I don't know what.

[Marv Werner]

Jonathan,

Thanks for the compliments. You are right, Disston didn't wheat carve any of their backsaws that I'm aware of. In my opinion, Disston's wheat carving left a lot to be desired. Down right sloppy all during the 1900,s. Went from bad to worse to, I don't even want to look at that thing. I'm thinking about their latest D-23,s for example. Just some random gouges somewhere on the handle. :mad:

Here's a 1950,s Disston D-8 junker that got a complete make-over. Did some major reshaping on the handle. Hopefully these pictures are better resolution. My camera seems to have a mind of it's own at times. Sold this one on eBay for about 125$ If the pictures are blurry, just blink a few times and they might clear up. ;)

Marv

[Jonathan McCullough]

Let's do the math. (D-8) + 92 hours = D-100 = $125 + (S&H).

Given the work that you did on that and the condition it looks to be in, that seems like a pretty good deal for whoever bought it.

[David Weaver]

Marv - what's your seller's handle?

I have admired some of the saws on ebay that were redone, and your wheat carving is very tastefully done.

And you are right about Daryl Weir's saws. After I finish up a saw, I look down the row of teeth and think - are all of the gullets just perfect dead on exact same depth like daryl's? Not if they needed any serious tooth reshaping.

And then on the crosscuts, do I think I could slide a plain steel guitar string down through the middle of the teeth without it bumping around at all like it looks like you could on daryls? The answer to that one is always no.

Thankfully, that doesn't keep them from cutting well.

[David Weaver]

David: Looking around at the market, $65 for a clean, sharp, full-size No. 12 in working order is a steal. I may have one lurking around under a very old Keen Kutter etch that has a No. 7 handle, but the taper grinding is much more pronounced, so I'm thinking it's really either a No. 12 or a No. 16. Personally, I'm not sold on the handles for No. 12's. They're kinda big, kinda further from the action, kinda I don't know what.

Now that you bring it up, they do seem pretty substantial. Of the two #12s I have, I only use the rip saw a lot, and I usually hold a board to the top of my bench and saw it unconventially, so I don't notice the totes as much, but I do seem to recall thinking the tote on my #7 panel seemed kind of small.

Maybe I'll put one over the other and have a look at how different they are.

[Marv Werner]

Hi David,

My seller's user name is Marvco64. Thanks for asking.

I haven't been doing any selling for several months. Been doing quite a bit of custom work for individuals though. Some saws that I have, I recondition and sell to people. Others send me their saws to be done. Some I just sharpen and others get what some of my customers like to refer to as being Marvinized. That means a complete make-over where they allow me to have my way with their saw (s). Usually these kind of customers realize to a great extent what it actually takes to recondition or restore an old beat up handsaw and are willing to pay what it's worth. With eBay, ya never know. Depends on who is looking at any given time and what their wants or needs are.

Once in awhile I'll buy a real cheapy no-name backsaw on ebay merely to remodel it and resell it or maybe keep it. I just bought one just to get a blade to be used on an experimental backsaw I'm working on. The cost of a blade is cheaper that way compared to buying the raw stock in a small quantity from McMasters for instance.

Below is another make over no name backsaw that I recently did that I think I'll keep it unless someone makes me an offer I can't refuse. This cheapy junky saw had an extra thin handle so I laminated a thin piece of Mahogany on both sides of the handgrip, repaired the upper horn plus totally reshaping it. Kind of an over-kill that some people think isn't worth the effort. But I do it because it's fun and sometimes even challenging. This saw cuts as good or better than any similar saw on today's market.

Sorry, don't mean to gloat so much, but as I like to say..."if'n ya kain't gloat, it ain't worth do'n" :D

Before and after pics again...

[Chris Vandiver]

I own 3 saws that Marv restored. All are beautifully done and the sharpening is top notch, couldn't get much better.

[Marv Werner]

Hey Chris,

Good to see you, howz things go'n?

Is that customized No.4 still doing it's job? That was one of my favorite make-overs. I left that one laying around in the house for quite awhile so I could glance at it from time to time. ;)

Thanks for the compliments.....much appreciated :)

Marv

[rick carpenter]

"...or it's been identified as an anvil. Beats me." Niiiiice! (both the work and the words)