How do I make mullion/muttons

[Craig D Peltier]

Im going to be making some simple shaker style mullions and muttons . So they will be say 3/4 wide by 1/4 thick square edges. Going over a shaker framed door with glass center.
How do I make them?
I was thinking of milling say 5 inch wide board by the longest length I need and making dadoes so they lap joint over each other. I think that might be way to do it.
My main question is how do I attach to frame? Should I pin nail it at a 45 with some glue? It is paint grade but the client is doing milk paint so im not sure if you will be able to see joint lines or putty if I groove them into the frame on the top.

Thanks

[Rod Sheridan]

Muntins are often double mitred (to a point) and set into corresponding V shaped notches.

You could do a half lapped joint as you suggested where the muntins fross each other, then set them into mitred notches in the window frame.

Regards, Rod.

[Gordon Eyre]

The New Yankee Workshop features this in their latest TV spot. This just aired this weekend and gives a fairly good description of this process.

[Craig D Peltier]

Muntins are often double mitred (to a point) and set into corresponding V shaped notches.

You could do a half lapped joint as you suggested where the muntins fross each other, then set them into mitred notches in the window frame.

Regards, Rod.

So the mitered notches are visible on the front of the door frame?

[Jamie Buxton]

So the mitered notches are visible on the front of the door frame?

You're already planning for lap joints where the mullions cross. Why not use a lap joint where the mullions hit the door frame? It would look more consistent.

[Craig D Peltier]

You're already planning for lap joints where the mullions cross. Why not use a lap joint where the mullions hit the door frame? It would look more consistent.

That makes sense, so again there on the top? Are mullions and muttons usually flush with face of door frame for shaker style like this? or are thye inset a little? I understand others are shaped on a shaper but these are basic.

[Jamie Buxton]

... so again there on the top? ...

I don't understand what you mean by "top". Let's say the door is on the front of the cabinet. I'd say that at the lap joint at the door frame, the mullions are behind the door frame. You glue up the door frame, then run a rabbet around the opening. That rabbet is the same depth as the rabbets on the backs of the mullions. The mullion grid gets assembled separately, and then the whole grid gets inserted from the back of the door.

One advantage of making the mullion fronts flush with the front of the door frame is that you can sand the whole thing easily.

You might want to think ahead about how you're going to hold the glass lites in. There are about four zillion strategies. Maybe, because it is just paint grade, you just use glaziers points, and putty or caulk.

[Craig D Peltier]

I don't understand what you mean by "top". Let's say the door is on the front of the cabinet. I'd say that at the lap joint at the door frame, the mullions are behind the door frame. You glue up the door frame, then run a rabbet around the opening. That rabbet is the same depth as the rabbets on the backs of the mullions. The mullion grid gets assembled separately, and then the whole grid gets inserted from the back of the door.

One advantage of making the mullion fronts flush with the front of the door frame is that you can sand the whole thing easily.

You might want to think ahead about how you're going to hold the glass lites in. There are about four zillion strategies. Maybe, because it is just paint grade, you just use glaziers points, and putty or caulk.

I just wanted to put one whole pane behind the glass.
What you said about rabbet inside the back of frame will work and the mullions and muttons having the same depth of rabbett on ends it will drop in and be flush with the front.
Thanks

[Neal Clayton]

the 'old school' way would be to mortise each one, and have a back rabbet on each one to hold individual panes of glass.

the below are on a window not a door, but the principle is the same.

http://xayd.nbfl.net/muntin-bottom-topsash.jpg

http://xayd.nbfl.net/muntin-mortise-topsash.jpg

http://xayd.nbfl.net/outside-topsash.jpg

[Peter Quinn]

For SDL's (simulated divided lites) I'd make a sort of a half lap where the munton's meet the stiles and rails. Basically I'd take out a 3/8"X1/2" rabbit on the interior facing edge of each stile and rail, leaving a 1/4" thick rabbit ledge. I'd make the intersection of the two muntons a basic half lap, then form one half of a lap at the end of each munton. You will remove 1/2 the the thicknes of your bars, and it will be the half facing the exterior or show side.

You can form the receiving end of the half lap in the stiles with a simple jig made of MDF and a small 1/2" top bearing mortising bit like you might use for hinges. Whiteside makes a good one. A piece 1/2" thick MDF works well in a 1/2" glass rabbit. The width of this jig's opening will equal the width of your grates bars, and you should use them to make the template for accuracy. You will have to square the corners of these cuts with a chisel, and I would make them with a trim router. Make sense?

In the schetch up mock ups that follow, the first jpeg is the basic stile or rail half lap as viewed from the back, the second is a rough schetch of a basic jig to guide the receiving end of the half lap, and the third is a mock up of a basic munton.

PS...if you really want to know about MUTTON you should check with a sheep farmer.:D

[rick sawyers]

Hi Craig,
I have made a few doors like this with exactly the same 3/4 inch by 1/4 inch stock. I make a grid out of that stock that is 1/4 inch thick. The grid holds the glass and I hide the edges of the glass on the back of the door with tiny mitred stock.
The simplest way to picture what I am saying is to draw a tic-tac-toe grid and then draw a square around it. That would be a 2 over 2 light. A 2 over 3 light is more common, but anyway you make a closed grid (of mullions) with half laps and dadoes and treat it like you would a panel in a shaker style door.
In other words, when making shaker style doors, I have a 1/4 inch deep and wide dado in the center of the thickness of my frame where a panel sits, and if I make a solid door I will slide the panel in the frame when I glue it up. When I make a glass door I slide the "grid" in the dado where the panel goes and glue it up.

I can apply the single piece of glass to the back side and hide the edge by making some small 1/2" by 3/8" trim--ell shaped in profile. It sits on the stiles and rails of the door and also slightly on the glass. I mitre this on and tack it with brass tacks--pre-drilling of course.
You can't see the trim from the front because the 3/4" grid hides it.
Applying the glass comes after it has been painted of course.
I also use a few very small dabs of silicone so that the glass doesn't rattle.
One IMPORTANT thing to remember is that if you are using euro hinges with big cup holes you need to make your stiles 2 and 1/4 inches wide and make sure your little trim that you use to hide the glass is back far enough from the hinges when you go to screw them on the inside of the door.

[Craig D Peltier]

Thanks for all the help. Alot of clarity was given :)

[J.R. Rutter]

Not to muddy the waters, but here's what I do. I think that the lap joint that Peter described is best quality, but I personally would rather not have to do any more measuring and precision cutting than absolutely necessary. The method below only requires a grid to fit the door opening, then put away the measuring tools.

Glue up door without a panel so that you have a cope/stick corner joint.
Rabbet out the back side of the door with a router.
Make the grid with dadoed lap joints to fit the opening in the face of the door exactly.
Glue it in with typical end grain treatment (two glue applications a minute or so apart).
Set up the drill press with a 3/8" forstner bit set for about 1/8 - 3/16" depth with a fence that positions the bit right over the intersection of the muntin/mullion and the door frame.
Bore shallow hole at each intersection.
Use thick super glue, accelerator, 3/8 dowels, and a flush cut saw to create inset disks that span the joint and reinforce it.

[Bill White]

It is MUNTINS!!!!! Mutton is sheep meat. :p
Bill

[kevin loftus]

It is MUNTINS!!!!! Mutton is sheep meat. :p
Bill

Mmmnn Mutton, traditional Irish Stew, Mmmnn tasty!:D

[Peter Quinn]

Not to muddy the waters, but here's what I do. I think that the lap joint that Peter described is best quality, but I personally would rather not have to do any more measuring and precision cutting than absolutely necessary. The method below only requires a grid to fit the door opening, then put away the measuring tools.

Glue up door without a panel so that you have a cope/stick corner joint.
Rabbet out the back side of the door with a router.
Make the grid with dadoed lap joints to fit the opening in the face of the door exactly.
Glue it in with typical end grain treatment (two glue applications a minute or so apart).
Set up the drill press with a 3/8" forstner bit set for about 1/8 - 3/16" depth with a fence that positions the bit right over the intersection of the muntin/mullion and the door frame.
Bore shallow hole at each intersection.
Use thick super glue, accelerator, 3/8 dowels, and a flush cut saw to create inset disks that span the joint and reinforce it.


JR, as usual, your method is brilliant and efficient. Its like a shop made Hoffman key!

We rarely make other than TDL sash frames, but when we do we make them as I described. There is not much measuring involved with installing the grills. You make a door sans panel as you described, you rabbit out for glass, you make the vertical and horizontal bars fit the height and width from rabbit to rabbit, you half lap the center, and use these grills to locate the jig. I dry fit the grills with a small clamp at the center. Make the half laps in the ends of the bars last. You sort of put the grill in the glass rabbit, place the jig, then pull the grill, route the lap, and so on. No measuring at all. It can be done by a blind man without a ruler, which nearly describes me! I use the actual muntin stock to form the quick MDF jig, so there is no measuring there either.

[J.R. Rutter]

use these grills to locate the jig.

Oh - that makes sense now. Slow brain day! Do you bother to square up the corners of the routed portion, or do you figure that it is covered either with silicone or a wooden retainer strip?

In the end, it makes sense to use the tools that you are most comfortable with and minimize opportunities for error.

[Peter Quinn]

Oh - that makes sense now. Slow brain day! Do you bother to square up the corners of the routed portion, or do you figure that it is covered either with silicone or a wooden retainer strip?

In the end, it makes sense to use the tools that you are most comfortable with and minimize opportunities for error.

I chop the corners square, though I imagine it could certainly be skipped just by clipping the corners of the laps. It is all blind after the stops are applied. True again on using what you're comfortable with. For me at work it's usually more a matter of doing what I'm told, though sometimes I am left to do things as I choose. And now from reading this post I have learned two new ways to do it!