Yet another thread on Combo Jointer/planer

[mreza Salav]

Currently I have a 6" jointer and a lunch box planer. I'd like to upgrade both (specially the screaming loud planer as my wife has forbidden me to use it while she is at home!). So far, I have been thinking about an 8" jointer and a 15" planer but given that I'm tight on space I am considering other options. Of course given that my workshop is in the basement adds a whole lot of complication on how to get them down there but I'm not going to talk about it at this point. My intention is either to dismantle them, like my ICS sawstop, and take down in pieces and put back together.

I have looked at several threads about J/P combos. At this point I'm not looking at which brand to get as I'm not convinced it's a good choice for me.
I am a firm believer that anything that is supposed to do multiple tasks isn't as good as a single dedicated version in any of them (so there is compromise in all).

To me, it seems the benefits of a 12" combo vs. an 8" jointer plus a 15" planer is:

1) getting a 12" jointer
2) save on space
3) can be cheaper overall

The downsides I see are:

1) I have to switch back and forth and sometimes changing the planer height can be a pain as I want to keep it where it is in case I want to plane one extra board that is needed (this might be solved by adding a digital gauge).

2) 12" planer vs. a 15" one

3) Jointer (and planer) beds are shorter (although shouldn't be a big problem).

I know there are many satisfied combo owners. What I'd like to hear is if there are any who are NOT happy with buying a combo or if they would like to go back to single purpose machines. Better yet, I'd like to hear from those who went from a combo back to a single purpose machines and what where the reasons? Was it the particular machine or was it the whole idea.
If money wasn't an issue, whould you still go with a combo?

Is there any combo machine which you don't have to change planer setting (i.e. height) to go back to jointer setting?

[Todd Bin]

Like you and probably most people I had a 6" jointer and bought the Woodmaster 18" planer with drum sanding option. Well when the time came to upgrade I bought the Felder 12" AD531. I find the switch over to take less than 5 min. The most time consuming part is figuring out where to put the jointer fence. When I bought this I converted the woodmaster over to its drum sander and have never changed to back to planer mode. I just havn't needed to plane anything wider than 12".

BTW, I have the 4 knife head with very quick blade change over. It leaves a very clean cut but it is very loud. If you want a quiet J/P then you should be looking at the Shelix heads.

~Todd

[Richard McComas]

I have a J/P. I like it very much because it does save space and was more cost effective over buying two machines.

That being said I wouldn't even consider a J/p without a motorized planer table lift and an accurate digital readout. Those two option is what makes it very easy to come back and remake a duplicate part if need be. Unfortunately I believe that puts you into higher cost machines. As far as I know Jet, Grizzly and most lower cost over seas machine don't offer those options.

Just my opinion.

[Rod Sheridan]

Mreza, in the case of the felder/Hammer/MiniMax combo's you're getting a better machine than the separates, unless you are comparing them to industrial Euro machines costing many times more.

I went from a General 8 " jointer and planer (General, not Generai International), to a Hammer A3-31 j/p.

You couldn't pay me to go back, I got machines that were as high or higher quality than the General, for a fraction of the cost and.........

- digital planer height gauge built in, makes that "oops I need one more piece" moment go away. Just set it to 20mm and you get a 20mm thick piece, exactly.

- infeed/outfeed table extensions for the jointer and planer increase its size past stand alone jointers
and planers
- tersa or quick change knives, change the knives in 5 minutes with an allen key, no adjusting and measuring

- changeover from jointer to planer is just over a minute.

- zero, zip, no snipe

- a 12" jointer for wide wood, or screwey grain so I can skew the piece slightly

- did I mention how fantastic it is to have a 12" jointer:D

- weight and electrical requirements that are an easy fit for a basement shop

- Euro bridge guard instead of that @&%$ pork chop contraption

- oh yeah, and a machine that is always large enough to do the largest job with clip on bed extensions, yet goes back to a small size for the 99% of the work that doesn't need a bowling alley length jointer.

A high quality combo machine isn't a compromise in performance, it's an optimization in price and space.

Regards, Rod

[mreza Salav]

Thanks for the positive comments.

I'm still waiting to hear from those who have some regrets from going with combo's or what they didn't like. There gotta be some who may wish to go back to single machines or have some critical views of these machines.

[mreza Salav]

hmmm.... I guess I should assume everybody who has them is quite happy and there's nobody with any regrets or comments/warnnings.

[Rod Sheridan]

My only warning would be to stick with MiniMax, hammer/Felder due to their lengthy experience with these sort of machines.

In addition, as the builder of the machines, they own the intellectual property and can supply parts in the future since they have possession of the drawings.

That may not be the case with re-badged machines.

Regards, Rod.

[Roger Jensen]

I have the Hammer. I would never go back to a dedicated jointer because one of equivalent width wouldn't fit in my shop.

Get a Hammer or MiniMax J/P and never worry about jointer planer issues again. I doubt you'll ever outgrow it.

[Don Buck]

I purchased a Makita 2030 planer/jointer at a woodworking show in 1982 and it is still in use in my shop. Probably not any quieter than your lunchbox but it works great. 12" planer and 6" jointer (59" bed), cast iron construction and very portable if on placed on a caster base. The planer is not a wood hog and can only surface about 1/16" per pass on an 8" board but the finish is very smooth. The knives are simple to install and set.
Only problem is they have been out of production for years. I do see one on eBay about every 30 days and they have been selling between $300 - $900. I will purchase a second for parts if I see one within 300 miles from my shop.

[Callan Campbell]

There are cheaper and lighter/smaller machines than the ones people have posted about. BUT, they're also not as capable or as easy to switch over their cutting modes. :rolleyes: If you want light enough to get a machine into your shop easily, the smaller ones work better for that, but once the machine is there, are you NOW unhappy with it? Which is what you're posting about.:)
You mentioned dismantling them into smaller pieces as possibility, so that's why I brought it up. Rod or someone else with a Felder, etc, would have to say how small or light you can easily go with the dismantle route for a basement shop. I truly feel you pain with that, as I too have looked into the combo machine process for MY basement shop, and my 6" jointer and 12" lunchbox planer. Some of the Combo's weigh in at more than my Unisaw easily, and that's the heaviest tool/machine I've moved down the steps yet.
The combo machines make the most sense for cramped quarters, allowing 2 machines to morph into one with a smaller footprint. This isn't news to you, to be sure. It seem to me the harder question is to limit yourself to a 12" planer, while getting a 12" jointer as a reward with one of these machines. Since I rarely have a board wider than 12" to plane, that's not a common problem. But, would I feel dumb if a good used 15" or 20" planer showed up on Craigslist a few months after buying a combo machine with a normal 12" limit.
Everyone here says you won't look back, and they had what we still do, a sep. planer and jointer. I think the bigger risk is getting a lower end price range machine, and not being supported by who ever makes it 5 years later. I don't think thats an issue with the Hammer/Felder price set as Rod S. pointed too. For me, given that these are unique machines, and not your dead common jointers and planers, that's where I'd do most of my worrying, who will be there years from now when I need a rather unique part to a combo machine?

[mreza Salav]

Thanks for comments so far. I know felder/MM make great machines but deciding the brand and how much I want to drop on it is a secondary question.
It seems in the lower combo's people are happy with the Jet 12" and the next step up costs 50-100% more than that (ouch!).


There are cheaper and lighter/smaller machines than the ones people have posted about. BUT, they're also not as capable or as easy to switch over their cutting modes. :rolleyes: If you want light enough to get a machine into your shop easily, the smaller ones work better for that, but once the machine is there, are you NOW unhappy with it? Which is what you're posting about.:)
You mentioned dismantling them into smaller pieces as possibility, so that's why I brought it up. Rod or someone else with a Felder, etc, would have to say how small or light you can easily go with the dismantle route for a basement shop. I truly feel you pain with that, as I too have looked into the combo machine process for MY basement shop, and my 6" jointer and 12" lunchbox planer. Some of the Combo's weigh in at more than my Unisaw easily, and that's the heaviest tool/machine I've moved down the steps yet.
The combo machines make the most sense for cramped quarters, allowing 2 machines to morph into one with a smaller footprint. This isn't news to you, to be sure. It seem to me the harder question is to limit yourself to a 12" planer, while getting a 12" jointer as a reward with one of these machines. Since I rarely have a board wider than 12" to plane, that's not a common problem. But, would I feel dumb if a good used 15" or 20" planer showed up on Craigslist a few months after buying a combo machine with a normal 12" limit.
Everyone here says you won't look back, and they had what we still do, a sep. planer and jointer. I think the bigger risk is getting a lower end price range machine, and not being supported by who ever makes it 5 years later. I don't think thats an issue with the Hammer/Felder price set as Rod S. pointed too. For me, given that these are unique machines, and not your dead common jointers and planers, that's where I'd do most of my worrying, who will be there years from now when I need a rather unique part to a combo machine?

My ICS sawstop with 52" fence was about 680 pounds and I had to break it down to get home and to the basement by myself. When I upgrade our house I'll certainly look for a different option of having a shop (either a 4 bay garage or a walk-out basement). But for now I have to do with what I have. Regardless of whether I go with single machines or a combo, getting that down to the basement is a challenge of its own. But I am thinking I should be able to brake it down into pieces each under 200 pound (that might be more difficult with a 12" jointer than a 12" combo as the 12" jointers have typically longer and heavier beds).

It certainly is easier to get one heavy machine down there than two heavy ones and I expect the price as well as the foot print of a 12" combo is smaller than an 12" J+15" planer (even a 8" J+15" planer).

As I have gone through upgrades of each of my machines a few times, my wife (as well as myself) tell me to get something to be the last upgrade you want to do. So I want to get this thing right this time.

[Van Huskey]

I have yet to see anyone go back from a J/P (a real one not the 8/10" Jets) to stand alone machines probably because they chose them for a reason and the do the job they were intended to do.

I am in the process of setting up a new shop and currently deciding on machines. I have decided on stand alone machines but that choice is not the best for everyone.

The J/P combo has its strengths in space and economy, if you don't have the space for stand alones then you don't really have much of a choice, if you need a wide jointer but funds are limited then you don't have a choice either (unless you go used).

The killers for me with a combo are the change over time, and although they can be very short they still exist, the short jointer infeed/outfeed tables and the aluminum fence.

The infeed/outfeed tables can be kludged but it doesn't satisfy me. I will spend a decent amount more on a 12" jointer and a 15" planer with helical heads than a Hammer 12" J/P even with the optional Shelix head. The quality of cut will be just as good either way and the accuracy of the 4 post planer will be more than adequate especially with a cheap DRO added.

Having talked to a bunch of J/P owners it seems clear if space and money were no object they would almost every person would have gotten stand alones, but some feel that would have required Euro machines which when stand alones are considered are VERY expensive.

If money and/or space is a consideration (like it is for most of us) you kinda have to choose your poison, I feel stand alone Asian jointers and planers are an excellent value and the accuracy of the well vetted ones are more than adequate for woodworking of the fine furniture nature. In the end you have to pick where you are willing to accept compromise unless you do not have restraints on money or space.

I do have a tipping point but no one makes that machine, if I could get a 16" J/P with a helical head from a European source in the $5,000 range that would be my choice. The two machines I would be completely happy with (also have long tables) would be the Felder AD741 and Minimax FS41, the cheaper of the two is $9,000. Given that I can get stand alones that are well reviewed and long term proven designs for less than $5,000 as a 12"/15" pair and having used both and being happy with their output and ease of use I don't see any valid reason to spend the extra money or settle (IMHO) for the Euro 12/12 versions or certainly the Asian J/Ps.

The bottom line is if you understand the compromise you are making with going either route then unless you are unlucky enough to get a rare lemon you will be happy with either route you take. I also must point out if money is a significant factor the Jet 12" J/P is on sale now for $1600 with straight knives and is an excellent bargain. The least expensive 12" jointer you are going to find is going to cost you $500 more shipped.

[Rod Sheridan]

You have to change your approach to getting stuff down the stairs.

My Hammer A3-31 and B3-Winner went down the stairs with one thumb (it may have been a finger I don't know, Diann was pushing the button on the winch).

You don't take them apart, you typically slide them down the stairs, held back by a come-along attached to a timber across a door frame or some equivalent method.

Regards, Rod.

P.S. Check out this thread

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=1393130#poststop

[Van Huskey]

You have to change your approach to getting stuff down the stairs.

My Hammer A3-31 and B3-Winner went down the stairs with one thumb (it may have been a finger I don't know, Diann was pushing the button on the winch).

You don't take them apart, you typically slide them down the stairs, held back by a come-along attached to a timber across a door frame or some equivalent method.

Regards, Rod.

This is true BUT you may need to add some vertical support in the middle of the stair runner depending on how the staircase was built, but this is as easy as cutting and nailing a couple of 2x4s.

[Rod Sheridan]

This is true BUT you may need to add some vertical support in the middle of the stair runner depending on how the staircase was built, but this is as easy as cutting and nailing a couple of 2x4s.

Very true Van, however I just C clamped them in place so that I could take them out again.

I don't think the combo machine weighes more than two guys with a cabinet saw that's had the wings, fence etc removed. And there sure have been a lot of cabinet saws moved down stairs that way.

Regards, Rod.

[mreza Salav]

Unfortunately our stairs have a 90 degree turn in the middle with no landing. So that makes the possibility of sliding them down on a straight line (or two segments) next to zero.

[Van Huskey]

however I just C clamped them in place so that I could take them out again.



Regards, Rod.


That is 'cause your smarter than me! :o

As for the steps I just don't want someone to get excited about the new machine or so concerned about controlling it they don't realize they have a problem until they have 1000lbs of people and machine laying on the basement floor! Plenty of steps will be fine, some won't though.

[Steve Rowe]

I went from a full combo machine back to separates except for the J/P. This combo makes perfect sense and as picky as I am about machinery performance, with the J/P combo there are no regrets.

[mreza Salav]

Good advice Van.
The real problem I have now is that my current shop is space limited and in the basement. I am fairly sure I'll upgrade our house within the next 5-6 years when I've paid off the current mortgage.
I will most likely get a bigger shop and then I might regret getting a combo.
So the dilemma is either I get a combo now and hope that i don't regret it when I'm not space constrained, or live with what I have now and upgrade later to stand alone machines.
Of course it seems hard to live with my current planer...

[Van Huskey]

Good advice Van.
The real problem I have know is that my current shop is space limited and in the basement. I am fairly sure I'll upgrade our house within the next 5-6 years when I've paid off the current mortgage.
I will most likely get a bigger shop and then I might regret getting a combo.
So the dilemma is either I get a combo now and hope that i don't regret it when I'm not space constrained, or live with what I have now and upgrade later to stand alone machines.
Of course it seems hard to live with my current planer...

Two more pieces to the puzzle. First, I am not gonna comment further on getting any machine into the basement since it means little without seeing the machine nor the stairs. I will say that where there is a will there is a way, though it may need to be a big will, or maybe two "American" football players NAMED Will!

I think if I were in your shoes I would get the Hammer. It is a fine machine, will hold its resell better than the Asians (though it still may have a higher cost to own for a specific period of time since it has a higher initial price) AND you are much more likely to fall completely in love and be happy to keep it later even if you have 2000 ft^2 of shop at your new home. Plus, even though it is a combo with a 90* trun in the stairs it may well be easier to get down than a 8" jointer with ~7ft tables with less disassembly. Maybe you could get a break on a "kit" so you could move it down and assemble it yourself the first time... :D

[John Morrison60]

Mreza

You will not be sorry you have a combination even if you move to a
new shop. It is definitely not a compromise (in jointing or planing),
as long as you get one of the brands mentioned.

One other nice feature of the combo is that if you change to a Shelix
head, you only have one head to change.

You will love working with this class of machinery, makes you feel good!

You can take them down a stairway easier if you take the tables off.
I can not speak for Hammer/Felder, but I took the tables off of my
minimax, tied it on to a "sled" and slid it down a 2x10 that was temporarily
fastened to my stairs. Worked slick. Never looked back.


Good Luck
John Morrison

[Jacob Mac]

Six years is a pretty significant period of time. I bet you could get the A3-31 and resell it after you move. In the end, you probably would have gotten your money's worth. And if you really like it, you get a six year head start.

But it is easy to spend other people's money. You could save significant money going with the Grizzly. I do not go into debt to buy tools. But if Felder offered financing, I am sure I would have an A3-31 in my basement.

[Roger Jensen]

I have found that 75%-80% of the time I'm using my Hammer for jointing, so it isn't like I'm constantly switching back and forth. Once I get my rough stock thickness planed I'm pretty much done planing for extended periods and I leave my unit in jointing mode all the time. Very nice to put a straight edge on material when ripping stock.

Also, with the Hammer's table extensions on both ends I feel very comfortable jointing 6-8 foot lengths, which is the longest pieces I joint. Most pieces (I'm building cabinets) get cut down to three feet before jointing anyway.

I can't see ever replacing my Hammer, even if I had the space. If I had gobs of money (unlikely) and extended my shop (just as unlikely) I'd just get a dedicated planer and keep the Hammer.

[Mark Woodmark]

I have a 15 inch J/P It does a good job. I slide the jointer fence all the way over to the front of the machine and leave it on the machine when planing. Although it doesnt take long to change from jointing to planing it seems like it does, especially cranking the planer table up. It appears that if it wasnt for the dust collection hood the planer could be on the side of the jointer and no change over would be required. My old Ryobi AH115 J/P was like that.

[Mike Konobeck]

The J/P combos are by far the best option for tight spaces. I would argue that they are a great value too. At least up to the Hammer A3-31 from a price perspective. If you go any bigger or higher end then you are likely in a production environment or just have the money to do so and value is not much of a concern. I just started using the A3-31 in June. A deal came up on a full combo so I sold it and upraded to a full Felder combo. I wouldn't have considered selling my Hammer for anything less. The 12" jointer was so nice to have that I found myself able to use it in more situations and successfully jointed/planed very figured woods. They are loud. Just the nature of knives. The Hammer/Felder lines now have Byrd heads as an option. Are they worth the money? Only 1 person can answer that and that is you I found. Lots of advice and opinions but there is only 1 that matters. You should go look at and use one to get a full appreciation of the things you like and don't like. For example, some people can't stand the time it takes to lift the planer table to height. Maybe a little annoying to me at times but I didn't find it to be a big deal. I have more time than money. If I was doing this for a living then the time may be worth it to upgrade to power.

I have a basement shop. It is very easy to get the machines up and down the steps. I have designed a full system to do so though and pulling the A3 up the stairs was a challenge. I found some flaws in my method that hopefully I have resolved before trying to put a 1000lbs piece down it. Rod was very creative in getting his machine downstairs and I used some of his concepts. If you want more info on how I did/am doing it then I would be happy to send drawings of each piece and pictures. Took me about 3 nights to build the sled, rails, and winch assembly. About $250-300 in materials including the winch. You could easily do without the power winch and get by with come-a-longs for about $100. Beats the $200/hr the rigging companies wanted and I have something I can reuse when I sell my house and need to get the machines out.

[mreza Salav]

Frankly, I've never seen a combo machine close (let alone using it).
The comment that these machines (with straight knives) are loud is the first I've heard. I have a straight knife jointer and, although not quiet, it certainly is nowhere near the screaming loud Dewalt planer I have and I can live with that.

I really would like to see a Hammer and a lower end combo like the Jet 12". I have seen only good reviews for Hammer A3-31 and almost all reviews for the Jet 12" combo are positive too (the only complain I've seen is with the fence). The Hammer must be a LOT better to justify 2.5X price tag on it (vs. the Jet). It's not that money is the big factor, but no-one has unlimited money. For me (as a hobbyist) the value must be there to justify the expense.

I have moved temporarily to US (Chicago) for 1 year. Does anybody know of a showroom/school/ or a creeker where I can go and see one of these machines (preferably in action)?

[Van Huskey]

I don't know about in action but Chi town has (3) Berlands, (2) Woodcrafts and a Rockler, one of them is bound to have a Jet. Hopefully you can find 2 Creekers that live side by side that have the Jet and the Hammer!

I would suggest you look at videos about both before you see them that way you know what you want to look at and feel. A couple of things I would suggest is pay attention to the fence and fence mount, everyone of the fences will deflect, you just have to SEE how much and if it is OK with you. Fence movment also. Do a full change over including moving the planer table all the way up then back out of the way of the dust chute. I have seen "changeovers" look much easier when the planer table was never raised to a "normal" planing depth after being down for jointing. Sure you may plane something 5" thick sometimes but usually you are going to be in the 3/4 to 5/4 range.


I think you have identified the key, once you are set on a 12" J/P you have to decide if the jump to MM or Felder Group over Jet, Rikon and Grizzly are worth it to you.

[Roger Jensen]

Van,

Do you consider fence deflection a problem when jointing? Perhaps I'm missing something, but when I'm jointing and moving the board perpendicular to the cutting knives, a bit of deflection wouldn't seem to matter. It doesnt affect the cutting depth of the joint - maybe the cut marks aren't perfectly perpendicular to the length of the board, but they are going to be sanded out any way.

Maybe deflection is causing some warping/twisting of the fence so the cut isn't perpendicular? Is there something else?

Roger

[Van Huskey]

Van,

Do you consider fence deflection a problem when jointing? Perhaps I'm missing something, but when I'm jointing and moving the board perpendicular to the cutting knives, a bit of deflection wouldn't seem to matter. It doesnt affect the cutting depth of the joint - maybe the cut marks aren't perfectly perpendicular to the length of the board, but they are going to be sanded out any way.

Maybe deflection is causing some warping/twisting of the fence so the cut isn't perpendicular? Is there something else?

Roger

From a technical perspective it is not as it does not seem to impart any twist just lateral deflection. However, I am not alone when I say it bothers me. I am used to cast fences that are extremely solid and it really bugs me when the fence deflects, again not an issue but I have learned if you are not confident with a machine not only does it gnaw at you but it can effect your work. I just don't like it... :o

[Rod Sheridan]

Frankly, I've never seen a combo machine close (let alone using it).
The comment that these machines (with straight knives) are loud is the first I've heard. I have a straight knife jointer and, although not quiet, it certainly is nowhere near the screaming loud Dewalt planer I have and I can live with that.

I really would like to see a Hammer and a lower end combo like the Jet 12". I have seen only good reviews for Hammer A3-31 and almost all reviews for the Jet 12" combo are positive too (the only complain I've seen is with the fence). The Hammer must be a LOT better to justify 2.5X price tag on it (vs. the Jet). It's not that money is the big factor, but no-one has unlimited money. For me (as a hobbyist) the value must be there to justify the expense.

I have moved temporarily to US (Chicago) for 1 year. Does anybody know of a showroom/school/ or a creeker where I can go and see one of these machines (preferably in action)?

http://www.feldergroupusa.com/us-us/classes.html

Spend a day making furniture in the Felder workshop in Chicago........After that you'll have a better feel for the machine types.....Regards, Rod.

[Curt Harms]

It's different but I wouldn't say it's flimsy. The Jet J/P fence does seem sloppy when moving it but once tightened down it's solid. I modified my Jet fence so it would tilt 45 degrees both ways. Even with the longer supports it still seems solid. One thing with an aluminum extrusions vs. cast iron--aluminum doesn't warp. Remember the Delta cast iron jointer fence fiasco when they had to replace a bunch of 'em? Though I guess that's only an issue with new castings.

[Sam Babbage]

I have a Jet 12" J/P at home, for the money I have found it an excellent machine. At work I pretty much daily use dedicated SCM (the full-on industrial parent of Minimax) separates*, while the Jet obviously doesn't compare to these it does everything a machine of its class can be expected to do very well. Good results in both modes, fast change-overs and a good fence (I have no problems with mine, well, it's a little fiddly to lock, but that's a minor gripe.) The one feature I do wish it had is dual feed speeds.

* Stealth work-gloat, we just fitted a Shelix to our 15" SCM jointer... Phwoar! That thing is a beast.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

It appears that if it wasnt for the dust collection hood the planer could be on the side of the jointer and no change over would be required.

that's a fact.
I removed it on my old MiniMax

[Rod Sheridan]

I have a 15 inch J/P It does a good job. I slide the jointer fence all the way over to the front of the machine and leave it on the machine when planing. Although it doesnt take long to change from jointing to planing it seems like it does, especially cranking the planer table up. It appears that if it wasnt for the dust collection hood the planer could be on the side of the jointer and no change over would be required. My old Ryobi AH115 J/P was like that.

Mark, wouldn't you then need two 15 inch cutterheads and the machine would be somewhere aroun 36" wide?

Not much money or space savings if that's the case.........Rod.