My first impressions of the Incra LS Super System.

[keith micinski]

So I finally got my sidetable built enough to try a few things on the Incra that has been sitting in my garage for 6 months dying to be used. I watched all of the Incra videos multiple times and read all of the manuals so I was ready to go. I bought this used and I had to go through and make sure that everything was put together right. There were a few minor issues but nothing all that big. Then it came time to get the Wonder fence all squared up with the table and the faces all aligned. I figured out really quickly why they call it the Wonder fence. It leaves you wondering how such a precision piece of machinery can be designed so poorly. The first problem I had was when I checked squareness to the table it was off enough to matter. No big deal I thought, with all of these adjustments it should only take a second to get this squared away. Wrong. Instead of having some sort of a screw design you have to undo 5 bolts take the thing apart and then use shims on the top side or the bottom depending on which way you go. This was absurd considering I had to take the thing apart 5 times for each side and keep trying to find things to use for different size shims and still only ended up getting it really close but not absolutely perfect which drives me crazy and almost made me rip my feeler gauge apart and start using that for shim stock. The worst part is that when you loosen the two bolts to slide the fence open or closed you have to be careful in how you hold the fence while you tighten it back up otherwise it will throw it out of square again by just a little. Now, I will admit it doesn't throw it out much but when I go through all of this trouble to really square this thing up nice I would really like it to stay square. I make enough mistakes on my own, I don't need an improperly set up tool compounding matters. My next complaint is only a small one. Having to turn a thumb screw to open a viewing port so that I can stick an allen wrench into the face of the fence two loosen two bolts so that I can adjust the opening seems way to much hassle. I have a bosch table and fence I am replacing and the fence slides open and closed by turning two thumb screws on top by hand and then tightening them back up again. Simple and easy to do and work's great. This could have easily been done on the Incra and would have made it much more user friendly in my opinion. So anyway after getting both of the fences "squared" up to the table I went ahead and aligned the faces. This is a feature that Incra brags about, being able to adjust these fence faces down to the thousandth or offset them. I really don't see why I would ever need to offset these fences but what ever. I go through the process of aligning the front of the faces and they are actually dead flat top to bottom which I actually worried about a little after all of the shimming. Unfortunately the back side of the fence is not perfectly flush. Normally this wouldn't matter but because the right angle fixture uses the back side of the fence as a reference any variation back there throws it off. Luckily it was only out a little and after a little filing I made it work good enough. This is my second biggest complaint. After much trial and error and watching videos again I have figured out that while the right angle fixture will "work" with the wonder fence it is no where near as accurate as just removing the wonder fence and using the basic fence for any kind of joinery. This stinks because the only accommodation for above table fence dust collection is built in to the Wonder fence and once you remove it there goes your above table dust collection. But without a doubt my biggest complaint of all and it isn't even close is that the Right angle fixture is a great idea that couldn't have been executed any more poorly if they tried. This fence has tracks and slides built into it for everything all over the place and for some reason they built the right angle fixture to ride on top of the fence rail and the only thing keeping it stable is three nylon screws. The screws have almost no area to ride against and even if they did you have to constantly keep tightening them because the smallest vibration from say, oh I don't know, a running router makes them back out which then makes the fixture have side to side motion in it. If you tighten them to much then it grabs and doesn't want to slide at all and it is a fine line between to tight and to loose. Another problem is that the screw's don't lock into anything so when you are trying to clamp a drawer side onto it, it is prone to lift off of the top of the fence because the three little nylon screws are only about an 8th of an inch from coming off at all time's anyway and cause problems. I read a bunch and watched a bunch of videos and I cant believe that no one else has complained about how terrible this right angle fixture is. It's one of the most poorly designed things I have ever used. So much so I am probably going to modify it somehow to make it work right and be accurate. I love the templates, I love the 32nd increments, I love the built in measuring, and I love the single pole mounting systems that allows me to easily and stably mount it to my out sidetable and then take it off in a matter of seconds. I'm sure with more practice and getting familiar with the fence I will get better at making dovetails. I learned a lot today in making my first test set and actually got pretty close to making them work on my first try. There are a bunch of trial and error test cuts you have to make to get everything setup and even though my test cuts looked like I had the bit set high enough I had it just a little to low apparently. I guess it is a testament to the system that I have never done anything with a dovetail before today and I almost made a perfect set on my first try. I do wonder though if a standard dovetail jig also would allow me to set it up and make a perfect set on the first try. All of that having been said I paid 225 for this thing in basically new condition from the first owner. I think as just a basic router fence it is going to do a really nice job. Had I have paid 400 for it new I would be sending it back because it just isn't worth that much. I am happy with it and see the potential but my first impressions are a little lower then what I thought they would be.

[keith micinski]

Another peeve is reading the directions you have to do a test cut in an extra piece of stock the same width as your drawer stock and then do a bunch of guess work on whether the stock is actually centered or not. After watching the video though the guy talks about an auto center template and sure enough there is one there. I can't find anywhere in the instruction manual where it tells me how to use it though. I did find that I was able to mark my center and then use my eye to center the fence on the bit close enough that when the pieces were put together you couldn't tell at all if there were perfectly centered or off by a 64th. The only reason to find the true center is so that the dovetails are perfectly even but if I get it close enough that you can't tell it by the eye then that seems good enough to me. If someone wants to get ruler out and start checking whether my Dovetails are off by a 64th then they are likely to find a lot of other things wrong to.

[Steven J Corpstein]

All of your peeves are exactly why I sold mine several years ago and bought a Jointech system. Much easier to use, less gizmos and built a lot more solidly.

[keith micinski]

Well if I sell mine I think I will probably just get a regular router fence. I don't know much out the jointech system but Dove tails have never really been that big of a concern for me. I don't do a lot of drawers and have been wanting to try a locking mitre bit anyway. The main reason I bought this was because I felt like I was getting a pretty good deal at 225 bucks.

[Rick Markham]

Thanks for the honest review. I will keep my Leigh D4R that doesn't get much use either. With all that fidgeting you could have learned, practiced and cut all of those by hand... Oops I am in the wrong forum again :D

[keith micinski]

I'll be honest with you. I couldn't have any less interest in cutting those by hand. All of the expensive chisels, saw's, marking gauges and a tormek later I would lose my mind. I am going to spend more time with the fence this week. This was just my first impression so hopefully after a little more use things will change for the better. I still never see me coming on board with the right angle fixture though.

[Rick Markham]

I don't blame ya Keith... for me it is just another excuse for more tools ;)

[Van Huskey]

I don't blame ya Keith... for me it is just another excuse for more tools ;)


The only reason I ever bothered to learn to cut dovetails by hand was so I would never have to admit I couldn't which makes defending all my expensive jigs, routers and bits all that much easier... though I seem to forget the only one I have to defend the purchase to is me. :o

[keith micinski]

For some reason as much as I love doing woodworking using chisels, hand planes, and saws is actually annoying. I usually don't admit that but when I see people carving and doing lots of handwork my reaction really is what a waste of time. I am probably in the minority on that though. Who knows, as frustrated as I felt over the Incra system afte one try maybe it's just dovetails in general I don't like. I am going to give it another shot this afternoon so we'll see.

[Rick Markham]

Keith, a great set of chisels, and some great planes would change your viewpoint. I'll take a razor sharp smoothing plane over a RO sander anyday ;)
I can see your viewpoint though, honestly there is nothing more frustrating than a lousy set of chisels, and a crappy plane. A well tuned/ sharpened plane is one of the nicest/ most pleasurable tools, to me. A crappy/ dull/ improperly tuned plane will make the most "gung ho" woodworker throw in the towel and write them off forever. Some refined bevel edged chisels razor sharp make quick work of some tasks that are impossible with a machine. Lousy chisels with bowed backs and bad steel just make you want to throw them across the room or in the trash.

I love all my tools powered and not, one thing I really get no satisfaction out of is using a handsaw to rip and cross cut. It's really something I would much rather spend time doing something else.

Van, I agree. I like my jigs. They serve their purposes when I need them too. I'm making a chest of drawers now, and the idea of making 10 sets of half blind dovetails by hand doesn't thrill me. I'll save that time for something else "I'd rather be doing" by hand like building my infill smoother. :)

[keith micinski]

Ok I think you hit the nail on the head though. A great set of chisels would be nice but then they needed sharpened. I have no interest in buying a Tormek and learning the tedious process of sharpening. To me that's not woodworking. I will admit I have wanted to get a card scraper for a while and think it would be real handy but I have seen the process of putting a new edge on one from wood works and the wood whisperer and it just doesn't seem worth it. I still think I am goin to get one here and try it out. Who knows maybe I'll get bit by the sharpening bug also. I just hope the Incra jig goes a little better this afternoon.

[Rick Markham]

I wish ya luck Keith, I can't see how it wouldn't go any better. The more you get familiar with it the easier it should become right... In theory anyway. If ya do get a hankering down the road for some chisels and sharpening, don't be afraid it's far easier than it is made out to be ;) I for one am willing to describe what I do, and I know there are lots of others here that will do the same.

As far as the tormek/sharpening equipment, it can be as elaborate or as simple as we chose to make it.

[Jacob Mac]

I loved my Incra as a router fence. I did not like to it to cut DTs. I just hated screwing around with it all the time. So I ended up selling it. But I will say this, save your scraps as templates once you get it dialed in. That will greatly enhance your setup as time goes on.

Also, I did not like the right angle jig either. It was not that great, IMO.

[keith micinski]

Well things went much better this afternoon. I will agree with Jacob that now I have a height established with this bit I kept the cutoff and should be able to dial it in in two test cuts if not one. The main problem I was having was that I wasn't getting the bit up enough even though the joint seemed pretty tight in the test cut it just wasn't high enough. I will add that the router lift is invaluable in setting the height of the bit. I couldn't be happier with that purchase. All in all I could see that for the most part you would use one bit and one style of dovetail so the setup time would be greatly decreased. I really started getting familiar with the setup and movements after only a few cuts now. I also thing it would be easier to do larger pins to eliminate some of the error that can start to add up. I also found that the whole part about centering the bit in the manual is a waste of time. All you really have to do is eyeball it up and then use the self centering template that came with the Incra even though they make no mention of this template in the manual. I think this system is actually really easy to use as far as the templates and the sliding scales but that damn right angle sled is an absolute joke. It is so bad I almost have to wonder if there is something inherently wrong with mine because I can't fathom a company being so close to a good product and producing such a horrible piece to go along with it. The biggest problem I am having now is that I am going to buy a dovetail jig off of craigslist and try it out to compare the two. I have never had any interest in dovetails as I don't really do that many drawers but now I have to know which system is better and easier to use. Well, I think I already know the answer to that as the Dovetail jig only serves that one purpose and does it really well where as the Incra does a lot of stuff but not as well. I really want to see how much better the dovetail jig is now though. I think that if this test piece was a drawer I could probably live with it, at least on the back anyway.

[Rick Markham]

Looks like you are still getting a little bit of chip out. I'm thinking that aspect will change with a harder wood. Is that poplar your using? Is your dovetail bit a new sharp one? Maybe some others can chime in some ideas. It looks like your getting a good fit, I'm glad to hear it was easier this time around.

As far as buying a jig to compare, I think they are pretty variable as far as ease of set up, and use depending on what jig it is. Some are really really bad, some are really really good. My Leigh D4R does really nice work but can be a bit tedious to set up. If you take the time and record everything it is repeatable for through dovetails. Half blind dovetails require fidgeting everytime you set it up (if I remember correctly) but it is a trade off for being able to choose your spacing etc. I think the Akeda jig seems to have a pretty die hard following around here for ease of use, but I know nothing about it personally. One Jig is enough for me, like I said it doesn't see a vast amount of use. Though I should pull it out and play a bit with it soon.

[keith micinski]

Yes it was poplar because I ran out of my maple scraps. The bit was a new one but it is a cheap bit I got just to try it out. I am going to get the good Freud Dovetail bit set the next time I see it on sale. I think the chip out was partially my fault for getting a little carried away and going to fast. I am going to try a larger pin setup tomorrow and I think I will have even more success.