No Soup for You

[George Beck]

I have just been through one of the worst experiences I have ever had in woodworking. Almost two years ago I saw the saws of Andrew Lunn. I thought they were the best I had ever seen. I went to the Woodworking in America conference in Berea and tried every saw there. They were all good but I decided to pursue the Lunn saw. When I read about the saws in Popular Woodworking and saw the $250 price (twice the price of any other saw at the time), I decided to check this out. I was so excited when the Lie-Nielsen show came to Indianapolis and saw that Eccentric tools was there, I jumped at the chance to test the saw. It was great and Andrew was a nice fellow so I ordered 2 saws. I was told the price would not be $250 but was now $375. That gave me pause but I decided to go ahead. I was also informed that the fancy scalloped backs and engravings I liked were also no longer being done. I was disappointed but I went ahead. I was then told to wait 14 months for the saws, that seemed unreasonable but I agreed and offered to pay a deposit which Andrew refused. Eccentric tools announced 2 months later that Andrew was suspending orders to get caught up with back orders. I contacted Andrew who assured me that mine was one of the back orders. Then he announced a price increase to $500 in April. I had set aside money so I was afraid I might have to just settle for one saw. I wrote Andrew who assured me that my order was not affected by the price increase. He did not say I hope so. He said inequitably "NO". I continued to hold onto the money I set aside for this purchase, least I forget. So I have been waiting patiently for a little under a year. I was very excited to see an email from Andrew just before Labor Day hoping it was news about my saws. I was still hoping for Christmas which would be 14 months. Well the email was a mass mailing telling me how the saws were dreadfully under priced and he could not make a livable wage and all orders would only be done at the new price. I may have over reacted but it really pissed me off. I wrote a terse, although polite, email to Andrew questioning this action that he had specifically told me he would not do and this caused me to question if the quality and craftsmanship of the saw might have a change of heart as well and that I was very upset. Well, Andrew wrote me back saying he was sorry I felt the need to lash out at him and this "ends our business relationship". So I guess I cannot ever have one of these saws at whatever price and received the "No Soup for You!" response. I don't recall ever being so upset over anything with woodworking before. It is one thing if someone doesn't know how to run a business. I understand price increases and the difficulty in pricing one's work. I do not understand representing something as one thing and then changing terms after so much time. I also don't understand Not doing what you say you will do. I am sure I rustled Andrews feathers, but this was a clear renege. Folks can run their business any way they want, but I feel I am within my rights to cry foul. I never said I wouldn't pay the higher price I just objected to being told one thing and then reversed. I have lost patience with these boutique vendors who show one thing and then change their minds. I have been through that with Bridge City. Oh well, nothing I can do but suffer for not being willing to stay quiet while people treat me however they want. I will not be attending Woodworking in America and I will be canceling my subscription to Popular Woodworking and those who posture these guys next to reputable people like Lie-Nielsen, Tools for Working Wood and Ron Hock which gives the public the impression it is the same. I am just a woodworker. I am not a blogger, or a writer, or a self proclaimed expert. I just make things for folks out of wood. Buyer beware or no soup for you!

[Sean Hughto]

Mr. Lunn's behavior was very unprofessional. You are justified in your response.

I've never dealt with Bridge City or Lunn. I will say, however, that every other boutique maker of handtools that I have dealt with have been nothing short of excellent from Woodjoy to Blue Spruce to Bad Axe to various knife makers and on and on. I'm a strong believer in supporting these boutique folks. My experiences have been completely and totally great and satisfying. Do not let Lunn's poor business practices color your view of all boutiques.

Also, there are lots of great saws out there. Wenzloff, Gramercy, LN, Bad Axe, etc. etc. You don't need Lunn's.

[Jeff Hamilton Jr.]

I have to agree with Sean.

We all assume that the poster is telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth . . . if so, I'd never deal with Lunn either.

That said, I've seen posts like this before and when the other side is aired, it shades the complete story, well, a bit more completely.

If what you say happened in your case did in fact happen just that way, he won't be in business long; not just because he can't command the price he wants, but because his word is worthless.

In this (woodworking) very specific hobby (for most) that type of reputation is a quick death for your business.

Contrast with Rob Lee, whose business, reputation and customer service is second to none ... (no affiliation, just an example and a VERY satisfied repeat, repeat, repeat customer.)

[George Beck]

I agree Sean. I have support these folks too. I think I bought the first Bridge City Square and I was one of Ron Hock's very first customers. I should have bought the Wenzloff saw. I did buy a Grammercy saw. But that is my point, When you position someone in Mike's booth or next to Ron Hock it gives the impression that all are the same. Sadly, not the case. It is really a shame Andrew's saws are really excellent saws. I have just never been blacklisted before.

[Jonathan McCullough]

Hmm. I'm in the midst of my own saw project now and kind of sympathize with anyone making these by hand. But for enough money, it might be okay. So here's a deal George: Send me $800, the pictures of the saws you wanted, and their specifications, and I'll make them for you within a reasonable amount of time. I'll post the progress here on Sawmill creek to show what I did and how I did it. Deal?

[Jerome Hanby]

I am in no way defending how you were treated. One thing I noticed way back when I was doing technical support over the phone is that I had the irrational tendency to be thinking "how many time do I have to tell you that you have to supply DTR or the modem will not auto-answer". I completely realized that it was 10,000 different people with the same problem, not one person repeating the same error 10,000 times, but that wasn't how it felt. I wonder if you got the proverbial backhand slap because other customers had been heaping abuse on him. Of course from your narrative, he has a little abuse coming...

[George Beck]

I would be fine with that Jonathan so long as the price did not become $1,000 before delivery. As to the truth, I can only say the truth as I know it. I have run business for 35 years and I am currently a business owner. I understand the difficulty in making things by hand and making money. I do not have any disagreement with the price. But I also know that if you change your policy, customers may object and often do. People can run their business any way they please. They raise prices whenever they want. They can decide not to honor backorders if they wish. However, as a customer I have every right to cry foul and state my dissatisfaction. I might also state, under oath, that wrote another email to Andrew apologizing if I had stated my case too harshly, but reiterating my complaint which is I was told one thing and then that was reversed. I was fully expecting a "Sorry that your upset and I regret that prices have risen etc. etc." I was not expecting a "don't lash out at me go away!" I also freely admit, I am pretty jazzed up about this and it is not good for me. I am a heart attack patient. Anyway, sorry about the rant, I was made to feel unimportant, thats all.

[bob blakeborough]

You are only as good as your word in business... If a promise was made, a promise should be kept at all reasonable costs. If a serious error was made during quoting and caught and corrected early it is one thing, but if someone has verified, reverified, and after over a year of communication and patience been told that they now going to have to pay more because the business feels that they just aren't making enough profit, well that is completely another story...

[Mike Zilis]

George,

I'm not sure this will make you feel better, but let me relate my own experience. I've been a drummer most of my life. I've bought and sold well over 100 individual drums and have even built a few myself. As woodworking seems to be experiencing a custom built hand tool renaissance, drum building went through a similar renaissance. There were several notable drum builders that created quite a buzz at drum shows and in national magazines with spectacular work. A few ended up as Lunn seems to have with too many orders and no way to realistically fill them. In my story, the sad fact is that many people lost their deposits all together as the builder went out of business or disappeared altogether. It's interesting to me that this same story has repeated itself in two industries.

I'm glad you didn't lose any money and I understand the frustration and anger you feel about this situation. It must be true that immense talent at crafting an instrument (or a tool) in no way translates to automatically being able to make a successful business out of it.

About the only thing I disagree with you on is how you are extrapolating your experience into blame/accountability to Popular Woodworking Magazine and Woodworking In America. This seems completely unreasonable.

If you had bought one of the Toyota cars that had accelerator problems would you blame the Chicago Auto Show, the television broadcasters that played their commercials or the magazines that ran their advertisements?

Still, I hope you continue to give small independent custom tool builders the opportunity to earn your future business.

Best of luck,

Mike

[Jim Koepke]

People can run their business any way they please.

When this was first scanned by my eyes, it looked like this:


People can ruin their business any way they please.

Funny just one letter different that happens to be an "I".

As in:
"I am not making enough profit."
"I don't need to satisfy my customers, my product is so great they will jump through hoops for me."
"I love back orders, it validates my business!"

And so on.

My mind just can not get wrapped around the idea that a saw can be worth that much. It is beyond my current means to justify a saw that costs $50 to $200, let alone a higher price. I have used some of the saws at the tool shows and they are fine saws. I have inexpensive rehabbed saws in my shop that cut just as true.

But if people are willing to spend so handsomely for a saw, maybe I should start making a few to supplement my income.

jim

[Jonathan McCullough]

I think there’s an “old saw” machinists used to say: “first you get good, then you get fast, then you get cranky.” Andrew Lunn’s first saws were featured on WK Fine Tools journal as a guy who just made some saws in his basement for the fun of it. I think someone contacted him asking for a saw and soon he started adding up the dollars, thinking, “this could add up to a boat payment!” Well one thing led up to another, and now all this. I sympathize with the guy, I really do, and I’ve been seeing some griping about not only him but other toolmakers who are behind on their orders. I have an order in for something from someone else I just don’t have the tools to make myself, that has been languishing since March I think. Maybe April. I’ve lost count. But I can’t hold it against anyone who makes tools for a living. I don’t know how the Wenzloffs do what they do at that, or any price. Lunn’s saw handles are really, really extraordinarily detailed and if anything, much more time consuming.

And Rob Lee and Lie Nielsen, they are blessed saints, dealing with the public the way they do. We should throw all the business we can toward them whenever someone new needs advice on some new hand tools, just as karma for what they’ve suffered from the inexperienced, or from ingrates with ridiculous expectations of the tools.

It does appear that Lunn ran afoul of the extraordinarily high generally accepted business practices for this industry. But it’s kind of funny isn’t it, that we would probably pay him with a credit card that can change the terms any time they want? And do? And never make mistakes that benefit you? I think it’s one of the interesting American cultural blind spots or contradictions that Lunn would be called on the carpet when there really is so much more going on around us these days that makes his transgression pale in comparison.

At any rate, I hope he learns from this and that he continues to practice his art in such a way that makes him and his customers happy. And George, if you’re serious, you can always PM me. If you do I’d be happy to document the build here on SMC.

[Dewald van Lamp]

Thanks for posting this.

I think your rant is justified on what I've read.

I'm awaiting the opposition reply.

I hope it is forthcoming...

[James Taglienti]

If a guy can't make a living selling backsaws for $500 a pop it makes me wonder where the money is going. Even after dropping the decoration (to me, 75% of the appeal of those saws) and jacking the price to that astronomical figure. He should be ashamed of himself for even asking $500 for a basic saw.

[Jerome Hanby]

If a guy can't make a living selling backsaws for $500 a pop it makes me wonder where the money is going. Even after dropping the decoration (to me, 75% of the appeal of those saws) and jacking the price to that astronomical figure. He should be ashamed of himself for even asking $500 for a basic saw.

I wonder if he doesn't really enjoy making the saws and has acquired such a backlog that he's trying to run off customers. If you are locked into a day job (for stability, insurance, whatever), I bet it could get down right depressing to have every second of free time you can generate swallowed. Making the first four or five saws would be a blast, number 200, not so much. He really should have eased into the business and just put saws up for bid as he finished them.

[Tony Shea]

It is such a great commodity to be able to rant to a bunch of WW's in order to clear your consiounce as well as keep a heads up to all of us who may have been planning a saw from the same fellow. I do feel terrible that Lunn is struggling to make good with his backorders and potentially his business. But there really is just no room to treat well paying customers who are willing to jump through so many hoops in order to believe they might recieve an item they've had their mind on for months. Trouble is that there are so many outfits out there that are producing a similar quality product and get nothing but praises while doing so. But I suppose this is the difference between businesses that succeed (ala Lie Nielsen, Wenzloff, etc.) and those that fail. IMO I think you lasted much longer than I would have and showed much patience and understanding, given the scenario is 100% truth. I think the point the price reached $375 I would have had a few civil words but may have agreed to wait. But then to hear the $375 price along with no fancy engravings and sloped back, I would have fallen off the wagon. Thanks for the post, was well worth the read.

[John A. Callaway]

I have been really impressed with the Bad Axe line of saws. I hope to order my first one soon. Maybe you should give that fellow's website a look. He has received praise from all the big names in wood working.

[David Weaver]

Hmm. I'm in the midst of my own saw project now and kind of sympathize with anyone making these by hand. But for enough money, it might be okay. So here's a deal George: Send me $800, the pictures of the saws you wanted, and their specifications, and I'll make them for you within a reasonable amount of time. I'll post the progress here on Sawmill creek to show what I did and how I did it. Deal?

They are not as easy to make as they look, that's certain - especially to make an acceptable tote. But if you did it for a living, it's likely the things that are troubling you wouldn't be troubling you. The learning curve for making tools is steep at first, but much flatter later. There is some nice handwork in the lunn saws, but it's not like there is several days worth of it or something.

I'd be an extremely unhappy camper were I the OP, too. Saying you'll do something and then not doing it (especially after a long period of time) is not remotely close to acceptable - especially as you continue to back value out of the tool while raising prices by large amounts. Fortunately, there aren't too many makers like that in the hand tool world.

I've had an issue with a custom guitar maker that's similar, but even then, the maker was referred to as someone to avoid after I asked around.

[Jacob Mac]

There are so many great boutiques out there, I would not waste my time worrying about it. I have a Wenzloff panel saw, and it is wonderful. I had some technique issues to iron out at first (thanks SMC), but I have worked those out and now I love the saw. I hope to keep it working for me for the next 50 years.

[George Beck]

Well a lively discussion. I do want to be clear on this point. Andrew's saws are magnificent and worth the price. He actually, in my opinion, applying an eastern handmade philosophy to western saws. Hand hammered, hand set, carefully hand filed. I think this is fascinating. My only issue was I feel I deserved better treatment. I sincerely hope Andrew and his business make a great go of it. I felt a little understanding of the customer's point of view would have been nice and if a complaint over a renege is raised, albeit perhaps too strongly, a little empathy is in order. This whole thing could have been avoided with just a little assurance and understanding. I am not going to Woodworking in America because, well the whole trip would be ruined for me now. I am sure he will have many new saw products which will only make me think "Hey why didn't you make mine first!" I am just disappointed and pissed off.
Thanks for listening and thanks for the comments.
George

[Tony Zaffuto]

I seem to recall similar "testiness" in Mr. Lunn's response to some posts on Swartz's blog when the saws first hit the market (I know it got heated with the price increase from $250 to $350). I feel the OP has the right to be a bit burned since the price doubled, with features omitted with a placed order.

Many good saws on the market and many good saw guys out there to tweak what you buy into what you want. Maybe a new thin plate LN or Gramercy, tweaked by Daryl Weir or Mr. Bad Axe or Mike Wenzloff?

[george wilson]

I have googled Lunn saws. My opinion is that you are very lucky to not be getting one. Their handle designs are very poor,and the blade etchings are quite childish. I do not know him,but his work does not please me at all.

You would be very well advised to buy a LN or Wenzloff saw.

[David Christopher]

George, I thought you were beeing a little hard on Lunn saws, but I went to the website, you are correct, they do look like a 5th grader designed them.....I would get a Wenzloff

[george wilson]

I am strictly telling the truth,and have no horse in this race. You have eyes to see. Some do not.

[Gary Herrmann]

Give Mark at BadAxe a shout. I've bought from him and have been very pleased with the saw and the interaction with the man himself.

[Brent Smith]

Hi George,

I feel your pain. I ordered my saw so long ago I can't remember when that was, but it was at the first price with all the fancy doodads. Well, since then, Andrew has 3 times emailed me asking for my hand measurement and preference of handle wood along with a brief description of it's intended use. In each of these emails was a promise to start the saw within days. I just took it that this poor man is overly backed up and can't see his workbench for the shavings lol.

That was all fine and good till a 4th email demanding to know if I was still interested in a saw or not. Silly me, I thought the previous 3 conversations (email) we had had would have clarified, that yes I am interested. Next came the first price hike and dropping the embellishments.....still OK by me, but didn't hear anymore about my saw.

Like you, this week I received the $500 email...........at this point that email went into the round file. There are just too many good saws out there to keep this up any longer. I have saws from just about every other major maker out there, so at this point receiving an eccentric saw would do nothing to improve my kit.

[george wilson]

Well,Raney,I find it regretful when people get charged a load for something that just isn't worth it.

For example,I know intimately about a customer who got charged $30,000.00 for a silver bread basket. They took it to a leading silver company to get it appraised for insurance purposes. They were rightfully informed that the workmanship was so poor that the piece was worthless except for the scrap value of the metal. Do you think that's right?

Do you think it's incredibly distasteful that Consumer Reports evaluates all kinds of products,warning consumers about bad points? I subscribe to that magazine,and consult it before I buy any large purchase.

What I say is my opinion,but I am fully qualified to have one in this matter.

[Richard Niemiec]

I have googled Lunn saws. My opinion is that you are very lucky to not be getting one. Their handle designs are very poor,and the blade etchings are quite childish. I do not know him,but his work does not please me at all.

You would be very well advised to buy a LN or Wenzloff saw.

+1

George, you are right on target as far as I'm concerned.

[george wilson]

I guess Raney deleted his post. I do understand where he was coming from. I probably sound like I'm being arrogant,and really beating the guy up. My intention is honestly to be helpful to the folks who might be plunking down big bucks for a tool that I can see isn't worth it. I never charged that kind of money myself!! But,it's not the money anyway. It's what you are getting for it.

I've never criticized Holtey for charging HUGE prices for his planes. They are absolutely immaculate,and if someone wants to pay that price,so be it. Some might think that LN tools are very expensive. I think they are extremely well made,and I have purchased several of their planes.

[Raney Nelson]

I did delete my post, but in the interest of 'the record' what I said was that I always find it distasteful when one craftsman trashes another's work publicly. Especially when the other is not around to respond.

(and George - if Consumer Reports manufactured refrigerators, their refrigerator reviews would seem a bit different, no?)

[David Weaver]

But,it's not the money anyway.

When it becomes all about the money to the point that you're backing up on customers and creating ill will, you have to wonder if the maker has decided it's not that fun to do it for a living.

I would never want to do it unless I was really hungry and that was the only way to get food.

Deadlines and dollars can take the fun out of a lot of things.

[george wilson]

The things I have said are to protect fellow creekers. The question here is are there two craftsmen involved here?

[george wilson]

David,your point is very true. This is why I'm not taking orders. I do custom work for a very limited few. Too many years of making stuff under deadlines,last minute orders from big shots who haven't the sense to give decent notice time,etc. I have lots of aches and pains and disabilities,and I've paid my dues.

Now,I want to do what I want to do. If I decide to sell something,I'll put it up for sale. It will be what I want to make,and how I want to make it,not a museum reproduction like I had to make for years,unless it is something so beautiful I just had to have one.

Raney,your remark about Consumer Reports is weak. They are very well known for being free of bias. When I read a report about a gun from "American Rifleman",I'll never see a gun they didn't like. Why? were they given a free gun? And,plenty of their guns are VERY UGLY,and made very stupidly.

[Mark Wyatt]

The paramount value of a site like sawmill creek is people like George Wilson willing to share their wisdom and experience. If George wants to give an opinion on any tool or toolmaker, you bet your a** I'm going to listen.

[Dave Anderson NH]

I'm happy to see that people rethought their posts and deleted them as inflammatory. People are behaving fairly well on this thread, but let me make a small warning. If you stick to the facts or alternately state that,"this is my opinion" you are on solid ground if things are kept polite. What I always worry about are statements that are careless and can be considered libelous should the subject of this thread show up and chose to read it.

[Joe Rogers]

Back in the day when I first got back into woodworking I found a vendor with a tool list on the web listing a thumb hole rip D100 IIRC for less than $50.00 . I watched the site for months before I emailed the vendor asking how to pay. ( I should add that I have had spectacular service from old tool vendors:D:D) Long story short when I got a return email from the seller he stated the saw was listed at the wrong price and wanted an extra $50.00 or $75.00 to ship the saw. :confused: I of course I declined and bought a fine saw from Sandy Moss. I asked all of my woodworking friends (and sellers) what they thought of this situation. To a man they said they would have honored the listing. The saw stayed listed until I stopped watching the site. Move on, it's easier on the constitution. ;)
Joe

[george wilson]

I am aware that things should be labeled "My opinion." Which is why I've stated such.

I have not said anything about how the saws WORK,just how their aesthetics look to me. I wonder if Chris Schwarz has tried many .015" dovetail saws. The most popular ones we made were .015. A lot of makers seem disinclined to make .015" blades. I think they're afraid of people kinking the thinner blades.

The thin .015" blades certainly WILL saw easier than a thicker one,by a marked amount. You are removing less wood. I'd like to see LN and some others offer a .015" saw.

[Roger Davis IN]

Oh, yes, he's tried them, George. See his blog posting:
http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/What+I+Think+About+Sawplate+Thickness.aspx

[Sean Hughto]

George, I appreciated your comments here. I can't imagine anyone more qualified to render such opinions.

I like my Gramercy's DT saw .018" plate - as it is nicely thin, but still seems plenty robust. I've used an old saw with a minor what I'd call bow (as opposed to severe kink) along a couple inches of its length and was surprised how little it seemed to matter to the saw - that is, the saw still seemed to cut and track well - perhaps because two thirds of its length was straight?

[george wilson]

I know he's tried the Lunn saws. I saw the write up.

About the Lunn dovetail saw,I would like it just fine WITHOUT the engraving,and the little scroll on the handle. I could live with the scroll,but would like it better without that detail. The work is carefully done,and the handle shape of the dovetail is very nice. It's the 'extras" like engraving I do not like ON THIS SAW. I think it is a step in the right direction if he stops offering those extras.

Re:the post above about Chris Schwarz's "kinked" dovetail saw; It isn't kinked. To me,a kink is sharp edged. The saw blade has slipped a bit in the saw back. All he needs to do to make it straight is to clamp the front edge of the saw blade in a vise,and tap the back of the saw towards the handle. It will pull the blade dead straight again. I have bought saws cheap that were like that. My closed handle Groves was like that. Took a few seconds to jerk it straight.

If the blade s going to slip loose,a little bead of Loctite applied where the blade enters the back,and wiped right off,will prevent it from happening again.

Thank you,Sean. I'm not the greatest saw expert,but I do have a good sense of aesthetics and design.

[Mark Maleski]

Taking this story at face value, it seems to be a clear case of a tool maker backing out of a deal fairly made - I'd be angry too, and would walk away from the dealer quickly. (Which is easy for me to say, as I've never liked the Eccentric Tools design aesthetic either). There are a couple of things about the original post that bother me, though:


I wrote a terse, although polite, email to Andrew questioning this action that he had specifically told me he would not do and this caused me to question if the quality and craftsmanship of the saw might have a change of heart as well and that I was very upset. Well, Andrew wrote me back saying he was sorry I felt the need to lash out at him and this "ends our business relationship".!

Because we haven't seen the original email that you sent, George, we can't judge whether your email was "terse, although polite." Since we're reading about this with only your side represented, we should certainly hold some reservation on the matter. After all, it was sufficient in causing Andrew to end the business relationship; maybe he was seeking an excuse to do that, or maybe your message to him gave him cause.


I will not be attending Woodworking in America and I will be canceling my subscription to Popular Woodworking and those who posture these guys next to reputable people like Lie-Nielsen, Tools for Working Wood and Ron Hock....

This was a deal made between 2 men: you and Andrew Lunn. Why in the world would you hold outside parties in contempt now that the deal went sour?

[David Weaver]

I did notice in Chris's blog that there is no link to eccentric toolworks.

I don't know if there ever was, but his blog listing is not short.

Keep in mind when Chris touted the saw, it was somewhere in the $185-$200 range, and I recall getting a lukewarm feeling from Chris's text after the price increase (like that's what he felt as conveyed through the text, not that I get a lukewarm feeling reading his blog). My recollection is sometimes like a kaleidoscope, but that's what I recall at least.

Chris is in sort of a thankless position. If he says something nice about tools (which can pretty much ruin the chance of getting something that's low production at a good price) and then the maker goes and doubles or triples the price, he's sort of stuck. I think he takes the high road, and who knows what his opinion is on this one, anyway. I haven't seen him touting a simple dovetail saw with a few artistic elements and a domestic hardwood handle for $500 as one of the true bargains to be had. I do recall him saying that it's got some extras in it and it's a nice saw, but that's likely true.

[Sean Hughto]

Has Chris weighed in on Cosman's corian handled saw?

[David Weaver]

Not sure, but he does have his blog indexed by topic, and one of the topics is "saws". Can't be *that* many to sort through.

[George Beck]

Well I will wrap this up as I just have nothing else to say on the matter. Mark, I was not obscene. I did question with so many changes and many new saws if the quality and make of the saw might also change. I stated I didn't think my business was important to him. I am also not claiming that he doesn't have the right to do what he did. I am saying I don't like it. I won't stand for it. The Woodworking in America trip would just be no fun for me now. I would want to stand by his booth and tell visitors "You don't really think you can get one of those do ya?" I just have no desire to read any recommendations from Popular Woodworking or their shows. I hope that will pass in the future. I think the biggest thing for me was such disappointment. I searched and researched this saw for 2 years. (I first saw it here by the way). When I read the multiple reviews and praise in Popular Woodworking I was more excited. As I said I went to the Indianapolis show specifically to meet Andrew Lunn and his saw. After a year of this is the deal, no this is the deal, no this is the deal I had just had it. I can be quite unreasonable especially when people do not keep a deal or request that I understand their situation with no consideration for mine. I think people should do what they say they are going to do. They do not have to, mind you. But I think they should and I don't want to have anything to do with people who do not or those who promote them. I am not asking anyone here to agree with me. Folks can think I am just a cranky old man. I have said all I have to say. I'm outta here.

[Joel Goodman]

I'd like to see LN and some others offer a .015" saw.


From LN -- "Our newest Dovetail Saw has a .015" saw plate" How's that for service!

[Mark Maleski]

I am also not claiming that he doesn't have the right to do what he did.

Oh, I think you have a right to claim that. Like I said above, I would've walked away from the "deal" the moment the terms changed after the deal had been made.


Folks can think I am just a cranky old man. I have said all I have to say. I'm outta here.

You're not the only cranky old man on this board. ;). I hope you stick around.

[David Weaver]

My recollection is sometimes like a kaleidoscope, but that's what I recall at least.


Wow...me and my kaleidoscope memory - just noticed that I said on the PW blog when it was known that the saws went to $500 that Mr. Lunn can charge whatever he wants.

Which is true.

I probably wouldn't have offered support had I known he was changing prices on people who had already put orders in, though.

At least you didn't pay up front! My experience with a custom guitar maker was not quite the same because they were playing the games, but they had my money while they were doing it, too, in the form of a personal check cashed months before. They did assure me that they were working on the guitar and it was ready to go out the next week every time I called (for months and months after the original date they said they were targeting), and when I finally got the guitar, i found it has a flaw that makes it unsaleable, so I'm stuck with it.

[Tony Zaffuto]

As I've already posted, there are many other good saw makers out there. For instance I had Mike Wenzloff build me two half back saws and a Disston #16 (my favorite saw-my originals and Mike's). The orders took a long time, but Mike was a real gentleman throughout the process, honoring his original pricing and communicating. But Mike is building saws as a business.

[george wilson]

I deleted my wish to see LN make a .015" saw. just after I wrote it,I found out they already did. Good news.

[Marv Werner]

Hello George,

I'm new here on Sawmill Creek. Was browsing around and your title "No Soup for You" caught my eye. I remember the Seinfeld episode.

I can understand your frustrations as a result of your experiences as you have so thoroughly described them. What I have a bit of a problem with is.... your going public with inflammatory rhetoric in an apparent attempt to do damage to someone who is trying to make a living with his craft. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm wondering, from a legal standpoint if what you have published could be considered libelous. You could very well be unintentionally effecting his livelihood. Mr. Lunn is new at being in business for himself. He has made some mistakes along the way. Good God man, who doesn't? I had my own business for many years before retiring and believe me, I made some pretty dumb mistakes. No business is easy. It appears from your post that you are not out any money. The situation between you and Mr. Lunn is just that and should not, in my opinion apply to anyone else. I suspect that if you were to give the man some slack and email him in a non-confrontational manner, you might be able to resolve any differences you may have with him. Keep in mind, having been in business for 35 years, as you say you have, you know how overwhelming things can get at certain times. It's a terrible thing to carry bad feelings around inside yourself. You are obviously very bothered by what has transpired between you and Mr. Lunn or you wouldn't have written in such detail about it. Plus the fact, you have decided to not attend the WIA. This is going to be your lose and will cause you to harbor all those negative thoughts for a long time. This is not a good thing for a heart patient. I'll bet that if you can bring yourself to a change of heart, so to speak, you just may very well turn things around and who knows, become best of friends with Mr. Lunn. If you are successful, it would be a wonderful thing for both of you. :)

[David Keller NC]

Sort of an interesting thread (just saw it today and read through the 4 pages). I don't have anything useful to add regarding Mr. Lunn that has not already been said. My own personal opinion is that you don't alter the charge on an order already taken, even if you are losing money by executing it at the agreed upon price, especially if you've taken an up-front deposit - the exception being if the customer significantly alters the original specifications. I've been the personal victim of this mistake many (too many) times when the cost of the required wood rises significantly in price and I badly under-estimate the amount of work that it takes to complete the piece.

Anyway, though, it would appear that Andrew is out of business for the interim (or perhaps permanantly) - his website address has been taken over by a phishing site.

[Ray Gardiner]

<snip>
Anyway, though, it would appear that Andrew is out of business for the interim (or perhaps permanantly) - his website address has been taken over by a phishing site.

Hi David,

Funny, I thought the same when I ended up at the wrong site, but no, he has a new site http://eccentrictoolworks.com/

A friend of mine makes guitars, and he is notoriously difficult to deal with, people wait for years to get a guitar, underneath it all he is a really nice guy, he's just a perfectionist and doesn't pull any punches when he doesn't like something. Diplomacy is not his strong suit. But his work is exceptional, and those who persevere always end up happy with the results.

Maybe that's the same situation we have here.

Regards
Ray

[Joe McMahon]

Hello George,

I'm new here on Sawmill Creek. Was browsing around and your title "No Soup for You" caught my eye. I remember the Seinfeld episode.

I can understand your frustrations as a result of your experiences as you have so thoroughly described them. What I have a bit of a problem with is.... your going public with inflammatory rhetoric in an apparent attempt to do damage to someone who is trying to make a living with his craft. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm wondering, from a legal standpoint if what you have published could be considered libelous. ......

... It's a terrible thing to carry bad feelings around inside yourself. You are obviously very bothered by what has transpired between you and Mr. Lunn or you wouldn't have written in such detail about it. Plus the fact, you have decided to not attend the WIA. This is going to be your lose and will cause you to harbor all those negative thoughts for a long time. This is not a good thing for a heart patient..... :)


A written statement is libelous when it (or in this case the scrivener) knows or should know it to be untrue and it damages the object of the libel. To merely report the gory details, notwithstanding the fact that they may injure the object of the piece, cannot be libel since truth is an affirmative defense to a petition for libel.

An example might be all that was written about Tiger Woods single car auto accident near his home. Surely the publicity has injured him since he lost numerous sponsors and a corresponding huge amount of income
not to mention scaring off prospective contracts. It would appear further that his play has fallen off significantly since the reported incident, yet there has been no lawsuit. One can only surmise that the reason for no retaliation by Woods is because of certain truths involved in the incident as reported.

Finally, I wholeheartedly endorse your summation regarding the dilatory effects that anger and grudge holding have on a person. I too had an order with Mr. Lunn, mine from July of 09. I too received the mass mailing informing me that my order was summarily canceled. Could I sue? Probably. Would I be successful? I believe so. Why then did I not pursue it? Because a man's word should be his bond. I will have no truck with a person who is not good for his word. If in fact Mr. Lunn is unable or unwilling to complete his agreement and perform his part of the agreement at what he now claims is a less than desired price, I will not put another nail in his coffin. His actions may well have done that already. In hard economic times, there are few takers for a $500 dovetail saw from a potentially unreliable source.

To be certain, he makes a lovely saw that is excellent in performance, but no saw- no tool, no object is that necessary that you deal with a person whom you feel has wronged you, nor should it cloud your outlook on others. To miss WIA because of the acts of one seller is decision you may come to regret. The facts as reported about the saw are true, his saws are very good and the reports saying so are, in my opinion accurate. Why kill the messenger?

[George Clark]

Hello George,

I'm new here on Sawmill Creek. Was browsing around and your title "No Soup for You" caught my eye. I remember the Seinfeld episode.

I can understand your frustrations as a result of your experiences as you have so thoroughly described them. What I have a bit of a problem with is.... your going public with inflammatory rhetoric in an apparent attempt to do damage to someone who is trying to make a living with his craft. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm wondering, from a legal standpoint if what you have published could be considered libelous. You could very well be unintentionally effecting his livelihood. Mr. Lunn is new at being in business for himself. He has made some mistakes along the way. Good God man, who doesn't? I had my own business for many years before retiring and believe me, I made some pretty dumb mistakes. No business is easy. It appears from your post that you are not out any money. The situation between you and Mr. Lunn is just that and should not, in my opinion apply to anyone else. I suspect that if you were to give the man some slack and email him in a non-confrontational manner, you might be able to resolve any differences you may have with him. Keep in mind, having been in business for 35 years, as you say you have, you know how overwhelming things can get at certain times. It's a terrible thing to carry bad feelings around inside yourself. You are obviously very bothered by what has transpired between you and Mr. Lunn or you wouldn't have written in such detail about it. Plus the fact, you have decided to not attend the WIA. This is going to be your lose and will cause you to harbor all those negative thoughts for a long time. This is not a good thing for a heart patient. I'll bet that if you can bring yourself to a change of heart, so to speak, you just may very well turn things around and who knows, become best of friends with Mr. Lunn. If you are successful, it would be a wonderful thing for both of you. :)

Marve,

Welcome to the Creek.

I totally disagree with you. I believe Mr Beck has every right to vent his frustrations on this forum. I also don't think the truth is libelous. As you said you're not a lawyer. Are you a psychiatrist? I was involved is a custom frame shop with my wife for 28 years. Once we quoted a price, that was the price. If we made a math error we ate the error. About one of those meals is all it takes to to teach you check your math etc, etc. I believe every successful business person has learned that the customer really doesn't care about your problems, nor should they. The customer wants the product they purchased, at the price they agreed to, at the time promised and to be of the quality you're known for. It's really pretty simple.

Mr Beck was far more tolerent of Mr Lunn's devious business practices than I and a number of other Creekers would have been. I attended a seminar where Mr Lunn was one of the speakers. His manufacturing ideas were, in my opinion, a good bit different that the norm. The norm being four well respected, established hand tool manufacturers. Evidently his business practices are a bit far from the norm also.

George

[Paul Saffold]

I went to his website and invited Andrew to read this thread and make a comment. I think it only fair that he be given a chance to respond. There are often two (or more) sides to a story.

Paul

[george wilson]

There are many libelous(sp?) things said on forums. Like the punk who accused me of not having done the work I have posted. It was quickly deleted by the moderator,who has been in my shop. Am I going to pursue him in court clear to California? No,he's not worth it. Maybe it is sort of a compliment that he thinks my work is just too good to have been done by me.:)

I was going to suggest informing him. However,this thread may soon be locked if things get too hot.

[Bob Marino]

I am late in this game, but agree with the many like Joe M and George C, who find this type of behavior from the manufacturer unacceptable...to say the least. A man's word is his bond, and he hasn't kept it; changing prices and terms midstream is the quickest way to lose my business support...and the fact that you waiting the length of time you did, wow, way more patience than I would have.
Paul, yes, it's not a bad idea to have Mr. Lunn read and respond, but it looks like the OP's experience has been been echoed by Joe M.

Bob

[Jake Helmboldt]

Hello George,

I'm new here on Sawmill Creek. Was browsing around and your title "No Soup for You" caught my eye. I remember the Seinfeld episode.

I can understand your frustrations as a result of your experiences as you have so thoroughly described them. What I have a bit of a problem with is.... your going public with inflammatory rhetoric in an apparent attempt to do damage to someone who is trying to make a living with his craft. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm wondering, from a legal standpoint if what you have published could be considered libelous. You could very well be unintentionally effecting his livelihood. Mr. Lunn is new at being in business for himself. He has made some mistakes along the way. Good God man, who doesn't? I had my own business for many years before retiring and believe me, I made some pretty dumb mistakes. No business is easy. It appears from your post that you are not out any money. The situation between you and Mr. Lunn is just that and should not, in my opinion apply to anyone else. I suspect that if you were to give the man some slack and email him in a non-confrontational manner, you might be able to resolve any differences you may have with him. Keep in mind, having been in business for 35 years, as you say you have, you know how overwhelming things can get at certain times. It's a terrible thing to carry bad feelings around inside yourself. You are obviously very bothered by what has transpired between you and Mr. Lunn or you wouldn't have written in such detail about it. Plus the fact, you have decided to not attend the WIA. This is going to be your lose and will cause you to harbor all those negative thoughts for a long time. This is not a good thing for a heart patient. I'll bet that if you can bring yourself to a change of heart, so to speak, you just may very well turn things around and who knows, become best of friends with Mr. Lunn. If you are successful, it would be a wonderful thing for both of you. :)

Geore has been more than kind in his posts, continuing to state his appreciation for the quality of the saw and even saying Lunn has the right to do what he has done. There appears to be nothing malicious or misrepresented by George. In fact, if there is any legal breach it is on the part of Andrew Lunn. George has only stated his disatisfaction with the failure to make good on a deal. Mr. Lunn is in breach of contract and in some states a verbal agreement is considered a contract.

I personally think George has been too gracious, and for that reason I don't doubt his side of the story. It hasn't been a tirade to trash Lunn, but to vent his disappointment. And I certainly think it is worthwhile to let fellow woodworkers know of the potential problems if they deal with Lunn. It has been corroborated by at least one other person in this thread.

[Derek Cohen]

I seem to recall similar "testiness" in Mr. Lunn's response to some posts on Swartz's blog when the saws first hit the market (I know it got heated with the price increase from $250 to $350). I feel the OP has the right to be a bit burned since the price doubled, with features omitted with a placed order.

Many good saws on the market and many good saw guys out there to tweak what you buy into what you want. Maybe a new thin plate LN or Gramercy, tweaked by Daryl Weir or Mr. Bad Axe or Mike Wenzloff?

Hi Tony

The heated discussion was, in fact, a response to a review I wrote on the Eccentric Works carcass saw and the discussion that followed at Knots. I'd supply a link, but I know crosslinking is not generally permitted here (pity - sometimes it is very pertinent), so just do a Search on "Andrew Lunn". I find it interesting that it was written 15 months ago. It seems so much further back in time.

Link - perhaps it will be left in: http://forums.finewoodworking.com/fine-woodworking-knots/hand-tools/eccentric-toolworks-carcase-saw

George (Beck, that is - there are a few Georges replying), for your information I am also blacklisted. That is, I emailed Andrew about 12 months ago to purchase a saw, but he did not reply. I believe that he chose not to reply.

With regard the work done and price offered by Andrew, I have stated in the past, and am not going to change my opinion, that he has every right to ask the price he believes his time is worth. Every person has that right. I also believe that many (most) custom toolmakers under charge for their work. When Andrew first raised his price from $160 to $250 my response was that he was still low. When the price got to $375 I stated that this was probably more realistic in terms of the time he expended on building a saw - but that it would take time for the buying public to come to terms with this. In fact, my knee-jerk reaction was to react emotionally as well - that is, the price was too high. My intellectual side dominates, however, and I still maintain that the price asked by Andrew is reasonable (if that is what he believes his time is worth constructing the saws as he does. It has little to do with whether others are prepared to pay what he asks. That is another matter altogether.

For reference, my review of the carcass saw: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/EccentricToolworksCarcaseSaw.html

George (Wilson this time), the plainer style of saw is my preference as well. I have a few saws made by Mike Wenzloff that are just wonderful. The original Independence Tools dovetail saw (itself a copy of a classic design, and now copied by many others), and the LN (although it is a machine-made version of the IT) - all of these have a classic simplicity. Andrew Lunn makes a first class blade. It is a work of art and the reason I purchased the saw in the first place. I really enjoy using the carcass saw I have. I have issues with the shape of the handle - aesthetically, that is. It is too chunky and ornate for my taste. That is just a personal comment. Others love the design. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Vive la difference.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

Yes,Derek. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion,but all opinions are not necessarily the correct ones.

[Marv Werner]

This is to George Beck,

I was in business for myself off and on during my working years prior to retirement. One of the best lessons I learned was to not respond to anything of importance until I allowed myself some think time. Even during a phone conversation, when I thought I had the right answer to a difficult question, I would attempt to give myself an hour if possible and get back to the caller. In so many cases, my response would be different. Even when writing something, I learned if I waited a day before sending it off, giving myself some time to reread it, I would usually make changes.

It is clear from your post that you are mainly upset about being denied more soup than you are about any of the other dissatisfaction's with your transaction. I'm not writing in defense of Mr. Lunn, however, having been in business for myself and wearing all the hats required to operate a small one man operation, I can easily sympathize with anyone wearing his shoes. Having said that, I can also understand where you are coming from.

To be fair to all concerned, those of us posting in response to your post, none of us have access to or knowledge of all that transpired between you and Mr. Lunn. I for one, do not feel that I can be specific about any one aspect of your dealings with him or he with you. I really don't have a dog in this fight because I have not purchased anything from him. It's only fair that I express what I think in general terms.

If I had purchased a saw from him and he changed our original purchase agreement and I was not in agreement with the change, I would simply cancel my order. In your case, you were ok with the price change and you were ok with other changes he made later on. You were quite understanding, according to your post. Then, for some reason, unknown to us, he decided "no more soup for you".

If that is your main upset, it just makes sense for you to give the whole situation some thought, calm down, give yourself some time and then approach the issue from a different direction. It stands to reason that Mr. Lunn just wants to make saws and to end up with some pennies in his pocket to buy milk and bread and make sure his time is well spent. You want a saw and he wants to make saws. I see no reason why two sensible intelligent individuals can't come to terms that are satisfactory for both.

Try to move forward and release yourself from the tension and stress that has built up over this thing. If you step out in front of the fray and make an effort toward a resolution and no resolution comes about, you can then feel that you took the higher road. I'm speaking from experience and know that when I took the initiative, I was always rewarded with peace of mind. :)

One more thought.....we all should try to look at the bigger picture with these kind of situations and not jump to conclusions. We are all quite capable of making a bad decision. Some of us might make more than others. Few, if any of us are in a rightful position to accurately judge someone else's decision, whether bad or good. We rarely have all the facts and even when we do, only a small percentage of people seem to be able to fully understand an individual's inner feelings and why they do what they do or say. No, I'm not a psychiatrist, but I have spent a lot of my working years in middle and upper management and have had to get things done through other people's efforts. In order to do this, one must realize that each person is unique and must be treated as such. This post is already too long, so I'll suspend my diatribe here.

Marv

[David Weaver]

Marv - when you were in business, how many times did you enter into agreements, verbal or otherwise, and then try to change terms substantially in the middle after you said you wouldn't do it?

Your situation isn't the same in terms of timing and balancing, you were, as you say, working while you had a primary job.

Sometimes when someone is dissatisfied for a very valid reason, it's best to let them decide what they think for themselves, and it's instructive for the rest of us to know the issues.

[George Clark]

This post is to Marve Werner.

Marve, again I disagree with you. It is wonderful for you to point out, based on your life experiences, how you would have handled this situation. My disagreement lies with wondering where in the world you get the right to assume someone else, with their life experiences, should behave the same as you would, in a given situation? Did someone die and put you in charge of right and wrong?

I don't believe George B was asking for advice on how to alter his personality on even how one of us would handled the situation. I believe he was simple venting his frustration and pointing out what, to him, were very poor business practices. I propose we let him vent without trying to "fix" him. Is that to much to ask?.

I offer him my thank you for making the post and pointing out someone I might want to investigate further before entering into a business agreement.:D

George

[Marv Werner]

Marv - when you were in business, how many times did you enter into agreements, verbal or otherwise, and then try to change terms substantially in the middle after you said you wouldn't do it? During my early years in business, in my twenties, I did in fact have to reverse a few of my commitments with customers. I was totally inexperienced and made some terrible decisions. I was lucky at the time to be dealing with some reasonable and forgiving people. Luck does in fact play a large part in our successes, or bad luck in our failures. A famous poet, can't remember her name once said...."when we know better, we do better".

Your situation isn't the same in terms of timing and balancing, you were, as you say, working while you had a primary job. You are so right. My situation wasn't the same. In my opinion, there are no two situations the same.

Sometimes when someone is dissatisfied for a very valid reason, it's best to let them decide what they think for themselves, and it's instructive for the rest of us to know the issues. I cannot argue your point. Actually we cannot prevent someone from thinking for themselves. I would never attempt to do that. Sometimes though, when we are presented a little different slant on an issue, it can totally redirect our thinking and our actions. This is always a possibility when we discuss a difficult issue while doing our best to see the bigger picture. There is no way for any of us to know in any great detail what might be going on in Mr. Lunn's life, both on a business level and personal level. Having experienced some of what I can only imagine he is dealing with, he is probably in turmoil to some degree. When in that state of mind, if he is, decision making cannot be at it's best. When your hair is on fire, your main focus is going to be to put out the fire. If at the same time, you are involved with five other fires, things are going to get just a bit muddled when trying to make decisions that address all the problems at the same time. That's pretty much what a one man business entails. This is often the case even with years of experience. We never have full control of everything, hardly anything for that matter. Most everything we contend with involves other people and events. Forces unknown to us are at work this very moment that will have an effect on us days or weeks or months from now. Just when we think we have control of something, we find to our surprise, we don't. Hopefully, Mr. Lunn will get through this series of unfortunate events and will still be making those wonderful tools available to us ten years from now.

[Marv Werner]

This post is to Marve Werner.

Marve, again I disagree with you. It is wonderful for you to point out, based on your life experiences, how you would have handled this situation. My disagreement lies with wondering where in the world you get the right to assume someone else, with their life experiences, should behave exactly the same as you would, in a given situation? Did someone die and put you in charge of right and wrong? Actually, after someone dies, they can't put anyone in charge of anything. So the answer to your question is...no. I'm sorry my post came off in such a dictatorial way. I intended it only as a suggestion as to how he might turn a negative into a positive for himself and Mr. Lunn. Don't you think that is better than what exists now? Can we at least agree on that point?

I don't believe George B was asking for advice on how to alter his personality on even how one of us would handled the situation. I believe he was simple venting his frustration and pointing out what, to him, were very poor business practices. I propose we let him vent without trying to "fix" him. Is that to much to ask?. I went back and reread my post you refer to. Yeah, I can see how you might think I'm trying to "fix" him. However, perhaps if you can read what I wrote with more of an open mind, you might realize I was attempting to offer some constructive suggestions. I don't understand why you feel a need to respond to my post with in such a snarky and negative way. Is your manner of responding typical of what I can expect here on this forum? I hope not. You are giving me the impression that you want to disagree with me merely to be disagreeable. :D

I offer him my thank you for making the post and pointing out someone I might want to investigate further before entering into a business agreement.:D

George

This being my first experience here on the Sawmill Creek forum has been an interesting experience.

Marv

[Joel Goodman]

All of this discussion makes me appreciate two vendors that I've had very happy experiences with -- LN and LV; they seem to always go the extra mile to treat the customer right. I know there are many others that I haven't dealt with yet who are also terrific.

[Bruce Page]

I think this thread has run its course.