LT18-3000 vs 514x2

[Andre Cormier]

So I thought I had my mind made up for the LT18-3000 but I'm not sure if it's worth the extra 600$ over the 514x2.

Sorry to start another which one to buy post, but you guys come up with great points that I wouldn't think of and I will probably end up with a better machine for my needs.

Has anyone seen the Asian Lagunas and Griz side by side, better yet used them?

The notable differences for the Laguna are the Guides, One more HP and 3 1/4" more resaw.

I've never owed a bandsaw and this is making my decision more difficult

Here are examples of questions I'm asking myself:

-Given the same blade and a properly tuned machine will they perform equally for rip cuts and Resaw.

-Is one more frustrating to use than the other

And lots more like that....

Thanks again

[Greg Roberts]

So I thought I had my mind made up for the LT18-3000 but I'm not sure if it's worth the extra 600$ over the 514x2.

Sorry to start another which one to buy post, but you guys come up with great points that I wouldn't think of and I will probably end up with a better machine for my needs.

Has anyone seen the Asian Lagunas and Griz side by side, better yet used them?

The notable differences for the Laguna are the Guides, One more HP and 3 1/4" more resaw.

I've never owed a bandsaw and this is making my decision more difficult

Here are examples of questions I'm asking myself:

-Given the same blade and a properly tuned machine will they perform equally for rip cuts and Resaw.

-Is one more frustrating to use than the other

And lots more like that....

Thanks again

I originally started out comparing equally priced machines from Grizzly and Laguna. That is the GO514X2 and the LT14SUV. In this comparison, I was leaning heavily to the Grizzly because the bigger size was just too much to ignore. My gut was telling me that the Laguna would be the higher quality machine.

I have now decided that the difference in price of $500 or so is going to be well worth getting the higher quality Laguna AND the larger size of the LT18/3000. I'm sorry I don't have specifics for you, but I agonized over this for weeks and finally just made the decision to go with the Laguna.

One of the things that really helped me make up my mind was watching ALL the Laguna bandsaw videos. My impression after watching the videos is that these people really know how to build a better quality bandsaw.

I've also read a couple of threads here at SMC where people had problems resawing with their Grizzly's, and I said AH HA! See, this is what would happen to me. I'd go for the lower price saw, figuring it had all the features and size I was looking for, and it certainly looks well made, but then when I actually go to put it to the test on resawing, it would turn out not so good.

Have you seen the videos of Torben slicing paper-thin veneer off a block of wood? Impressive. I have not seen such a video of a Grizzly doing the same thing.

Torben talks about the guides actually coming in contact with the blade, not just close to the blade. He talks about how that stabilizes the blade and keeps it from fluttering as it comes off the upper wheel. I don't know if this is true or not, but again, I'm impressed with his ability to convey these technical tidbits in a video. Other bandsaw makers should take note.

On the other hand, I'm a little leary about buying a Laguna product. A few months ago I placed an order through Laguna for an oscillating belt sander and a Pro 9' Sliding Panel Table Saw. The sander came in first, the saw was delayed. I took delivery of the sander and everything was fine until about a half hour into using the sander and the oscillating part broke. I cancelled my order for the saw. I'm still waiting for the part for the sander. Would you buy another Laguna product after that?

But my research into BS's points me in just a few directions, and one of them is Laguna. I'm hoping that the quality of their BS's is as good as so many of their users say they are. If that's true, there must be a big difference between the quality of their BS's and the cheap sander I bought from them.

Hope this information is helpful.

Greg

[Greg Roberts]

So I thought I had my mind made up for the LT18-3000 but I'm not sure if it's worth the extra 600$ over the 514x2.

Sorry to start another which one to buy post, but you guys come up with great points that I wouldn't think of and I will probably end up with a better machine for my needs.

Has anyone seen the Asian Lagunas and Griz side by side, better yet used them?

The notable differences for the Laguna are the Guides, One more HP and 3 1/4" more resaw.

I've never owed a bandsaw and this is making my decision more difficult

Here are examples of questions I'm asking myself:

-Given the same blade and a properly tuned machine will they perform equally for rip cuts and Resaw.

-Is one more frustrating to use than the other

And lots more like that....

Thanks again

This thread has some good information http://lumberjocks.com/topics/3093

Greg

[Scott T Smith]

I am not familiar with the saws, but I've dealt with customer service from both companies. My experiences with Laguna's customer service has been, and still is a disappointment; after multiple calls they still have not provided me with the answer to a simple question - the factory recommended thickness of the felt on a platen in a WBS.

Considering that this is a normal wear item, their lack of response is a disappointment.

Grizzly's customer service has been much more thorough and prompt, and has left me totally satisfied.

The Laguna product may be a higher quality one than the Grizzly, but if they do a poor job of supporting it you're still left in a bind.

[Dave Lehnert]

I would be interested to hear if the Asian Lagunas are in fact any better than Grizzly.
They say "You get what you pay for" But at times all you "Get" is less money in your pocket.
A band saw is the next item on my list to get. All info is welcome.

[Van Huskey]

I have used both saws but never side by side and not with the same blade so that is the salt you take along with it being an opinion.

The Laguna guides are great, the best I have ever used they support the blade very close to the work and are easy to adjust. Despite being Chinese made the saw is designed and built like a cousin to their Italian ACM built saws, the ergonomics and fit and finish are very good for the price point. The LT18 3000 has a foot brake, I am VERY big on foot brakes and far prefer them to motor brakes because they allow you to hands free stop the saw from anywhere around the table, not so with a footbrake. I consider the footbrake to be a requirement on a larger than 14" saw BUT this is just the way I work, but very logical to me.

The 514X2 is a GREAT saw for the money and has the foot brake that is one of my requirements. There is nothing wrong with this saw however if budget permitted I would get the LT18 3000 over it any day.

That said the real competition is not the 514x2 it is the G0636X which is priced basically the same as the Lt18 3000. This is a saw I have seen and toyed with on static display but never used. I must say this is a much closer race with the LT18 3000 and possibly wins by a hair even considering the Laguna guides. In the end I might buy the Laguna between the two because I know the guys at Laguna are more passionate about bandsaws than any other company I have dealt with.


As for CS, I have had nothing but good luck from either company. I have only seen one thread regarding the posters unhappiness with Grizzly CS not be satisfied by the end of the thread, so with SMC as a resource I 100% confidence in their CS. Based on posts here and other forums Laguna did seem to have a period where some people (who became very vocal) were not satisfied with their CS, it appears thay have made a honest effort to rectify the issues. I think Laguna had some of their issues from changing their product line from fully Euro machines (and their quality) to partially Asian machines, I think some people may have ordered the less expensive Asian machines expecting the Euro quality and neither they nor Laguna was prepared for the issues that presented. In any event I would not have any qualms about ordering a bandsaw from either company.

I will offer a different angle on your situation, since this will be your first bandsaw you might consider getting one of the many excellent 14" saws that are available and learning the machine there. When you decide you need more saw you will have a stronger personal basis to determine the correct upgrade path for yourself. They are easy to find used and inexpensive if you prefer new. When you do decide to upgrade you can either get a decent return on your purchase price OR keep the 14" saw for contour cutting and get a larger saw to dedicate to resawing.

In any event get Duginski's and/or Bird's book on bandsaws, both are excellent and cheap on Amazon.

[Van Huskey]

I would be interested to hear if the Asian Lagunas are in fact any better than Grizzly.
They say "You get what you pay for" But at times all you "Get" is less money in your pocket.
A band saw is the next item on my list to get. All info is welcome.

See my post above for the Asian vs Asian shootout.

BUT, save or spend the extra dough and get an Italian made Felder, MM, Laguna or Agazzani and remove the nagging question all together, in this lot the quality is far more level and consistent and you tend to get what you pay for although they aren't cheap. You rarely ever hear complaints about this group of machines.

[Van Huskey]

House renovations aren't getting any cheaper so I was exploring to see if I could lower my bandsaw budget a little. I keep looking on CL for Italian saws but nothing ever comes up. I see a few older Jet 18" for 900$ but reviews for those are not the best.

I'll let you know what I decide........If I ever get there

Thanks

The older model Jet was a poorly designed saw IMHO, the new traingle spine is quite decent for the price.

The 514 is gonna be about the bottom of the "new" range that includes a foot brake. It is just about impossible to squeeze a new machine price lower than Grizzly on about any machine for a given capacity.

If you decide on Laguna remember they are a boutique shop compared to Grizzly, and you have some room to squeeze. Free shipping right now so the machine price may not come down BUT you can look to breaks on blades. Also you could try calling about demo saws, they had a couple of 3000 series saws at IWF (not sure if they had a 18"), don't know if they sold them yet, don't think either was actually powered up, they were using a LT-24 for actual demos.

[Greg Roberts]

The older model Jet was a poorly designed saw IMHO, the new traingle spine is quite decent for the price.

The 514 is gonna be about the bottom of the "new" range that includes a foot brake. It is just about impossible to squeeze a new machine price lower than Grizzly on about any machine for a given capacity.

If you decide on Laguna remember they are a boutique shop compared to Grizzly, and you have some room to squeeze. Free shipping right now so the machine price may not come down BUT you can look to breaks on blades. Also you could try calling about demo saws, they had a couple of 3000 series saws at IWF (not sure if they had a 18"), don't know if they sold them yet, don't think either was actually powered up, they were using a LT-24 for actual demos.

From what I've been told, the next LT18/3000 saws are coming in September 20th.

I would say that my experience with Laguna CS has been good, but I have waited forever for the part for my sander. If I bought a Grizzly bandsaw and needed a part, I bet I'd have it in just a few days.

Such a tough decision, the Grizzly's look really nice. I'm just drawn to the Laguna for some reason. I keep going back to that video of the paper-thin wood floating to the floor, the guides, the heavier weight . . . .

Greg

[Greg Roberts]

See my post above for the Asian vs Asian shootout.

BUT, save or spend the extra dough and get an Italian made Felder, MM, Laguna or Agazzani and remove the nagging question all together, in this lot the quality is far more level and consistent and you tend to get what you pay for although they aren't cheap. You rarely ever hear complaints about this group of machines.

I'm not willing to buy a saw from a company that does not have good information on their products on a website for me to look at. Agazzani may be a good saw, but I'm not buying it.

Greg

[Andre Cormier]

Well I think It's going to be the Laguna. Placing the order tomorrow morning.

Greg, when did you find that information out about the LT18 coming on the 20th? I think they have one for me in the warehouse already as they called me to tell me it was ready for shipment a week ago. I had put some money down on one to secure a good deal they had going a few months back.

I'll post a review once I've had the chance to use it a bit

[Andre Cormier]

Well I don't know what I did but somehow my newest reply was in the middle of the pack, tried to delete it but deleted another one of my responses my mistake....oh well let's home this one makes it to the bottom of the list.

Decision made--Laguna, ordering tomorrow

Greg--when did you hear the 20th for the 18's to come in? I think they have one with my name on it in the warehouse as they called me last week to tell me it was ready for shipment. I had put some money on one a few months ago to secure a deal they had going on.

Did you decide to order one after all?

I'll post a review once I had a chance to use it a bit

[Van Huskey]

I'm not willing to buy a saw from a company that does not have good information on their products on a website for me to look at. Agazzani may be a good saw, but I'm not buying it.

Greg

I understand the sentiment and felt this way at first, the Agazzani seemed like a mythical beast from the hinterlands of a far off country. All I would say is if you are looking at the other Italian builts saws you owe it to yourself to give Jesse at Eagle Tools a call. Their CS and QC is somewhat legendary and the hands on QC they give their tools prior to packing the saw for shipment is a real rarity today. Their packing makes all the other machine manufacturers packaging that I have seen look like a joke. But I agree this is a machine you almost have to want to buy. In all honestly I would be happy with any of the Laguna (Italian), MM or Agazzani saws but I am drawn to the Agazzani and think the B-24 is possibly the best buy of any of the 18"+ Italian saws.

[Stephen Cherry]

I'm not willing to buy a saw from a company that does not have good information on their products on a website for me to look at. Agazzani may be a good saw, but I'm not buying it.

Greg

This is information from a couple of years ago:
http://web.archive.org/web/20061206011209/eagle-tools.com/Pages/agazzani.html


I have the Agazzani 24, and have used a few other bandsaws, and read about peoples experiences on this site. I think the differences with the Italian saws is somewhat subjective-- it won't show up in the specs. I can tell you that the Agazzani cuts very well, and is a pleasure to use. No issues that I have read about where a blade does not track on the wheels, the saw can't tension the blade properly, etc. I can install any of my blades, and they cut the wood that is put in front of them. No weirdness that I have seen on other saws and read about.

Now, the question is why would anyone buy anything other than one of the Italian saws, particularly when they come up used at almost giveaway prices. I have seen some SCMI saws that are huge and cheap, and seem like they would suite the needs of a hobbyist or small scale production woodworker for a lifetime. It's a bandsaw; what makes one good will last a lot longer than the gloss in the paint.

[Van Huskey]

Just for reference the page that Stephen posted, as he mentioned, is a few years old. The specs of the saws Eagle imports has changed so you can't use it for info on the current saws.

[Andre Cormier]

I looked into the Aggi saws from recommendations on this site. For me they were a little out of my price range. I also had a difficult time with the lack of information on these saws. In today's world, I'm sorry but lack of a website with specs pictures etc is a little poor. I have full confidence that these are fantastic saws, in fact, probably much superior to the one I am getting but...

If I had more to budget on a bandsaw it would have been an italian made saw. but for now, the asian Laguna will have to do....

Cheers....

Andre

[Van Huskey]

I looked into the Aggi saws from recommendations on this site. For me they were a little out of my price range. I also had a difficult time with the lack of information on these saws. In today's world, I'm sorry but lack of a website with specs pictures etc is a little poor. I have full confidence that these are fantastic saws, in fact, probably much superior to the one I am getting but...

If I had more to budget on a bandsaw it would have been an italian made saw. but for now, the asian Laguna will have to do....

Cheers....

Andre


I don't claim to understand Eagle Tools business model but I guess it works for them, but they do need a better site. The closest thing they have to the LT18 3000 is the B-18 ~2,400 plus shipping (dunno what kinda deal you could make) it has 3HP and 13" resaw, the B18/18 is 4.8 hp and 18" resaw and priced right in line with the Laguna LT18.

[Greg Roberts]

Well I don't know what I did but somehow my newest reply was in the middle of the pack, tried to delete it but deleted another one of my responses my mistake....oh well let's home this one makes it to the bottom of the list.

Decision made--Laguna, ordering tomorrow

Greg--when did you hear the 20th for the 18's to come in? I think they have one with my name on it in the warehouse as they called me last week to tell me it was ready for shipment. I had put some money on one a few months ago to secure a deal they had going on.

Did you decide to order one after all?

I'll post a review once I had a chance to use it a bit

I have to say, the format of this forum website is a bit odd. Hard to tell which replies are to what post and they end up all through the thread.

I think since you put money on one a few months ago, they were probably holding it for you. They usually have them in stock, so holding one for you would not be a big deal. Maybe when I asked if he had one to sell me right now, they realized that they needed to hold that last one for you!

My information came from Steve at Laguna.

Yes I am ordering one. I'm getting a quote sent to me today. Trying to get the free shipping on top of the deal I made with them before the free shipping offer came out. We'll see. If it happens that way, it will be a very good package price I think.

I had a frank discussion with Steve about my experience with the sander. I told him that I'm really crossing my fingers that their bandsaws are built a lot better than that sander. He said they just started having problems with that sander model and they've taken it off their website. I guess they run into problems with inconsistent build quality from the Asian manufacturers.

Greg

[Dan Hintz]

I have to say, the format of this forum website is a bit odd. Hard to tell which replies are to what post and they end up all through the thread.
Greg,

Near the top right of the screen (just under the thread page # selector) there is a box titled "Display mode"... select linear and it will all make sense again.

[Andre Cormier]

Greg,

Near the top right of the screen (just under the thread page # selector) there is a box titled "Display mode"... select linear and it will all make sense again.


Ah, Now did that ever make a world of difference. Everything back to normal. I didn't even know my setting were like that until I posted my reply the other day. Must of hit it by mistake.

Greg- PM On your way to your inbox

My Saw left California today so should be here in 4 or 5 days.

[Van Huskey]

Ah, Now did that ever make a world of difference. Everything back to normal. I didn't even know my setting were like that until I posted my reply the other day. Must of hit it by mistake.

Greg- PM On your way to your inbox

My Saw left California today so should be here in 4 or 5 days.


Pics and review when it comes in!

[Greg Roberts]

Greg,

Near the top right of the screen (just under the thread page # selector) there is a box titled "Display mode"... select linear and it will all make sense again.

Thank you! Much better.

Greg

[Greg Roberts]

My Saw left California today so should be here in 4 or 5 days.

Good deal. Now I can wait and see how it works out for you before I actually place my order! Mine isn't available until after the 20th.

When it arrives, without delay, please make sure to get it all set up with the RK blade and pass some tall wood through it to see how it works. ;)

Greg

[Greg Roberts]

Ah, Now did that ever make a world of difference. Everything back to normal. I didn't even know my setting were like that until I posted my reply the other day. Must of hit it by mistake.

Greg- PM On your way to your inbox

My Saw left California today so should be here in 4 or 5 days.

So?! Did you get it yet?

Greg

[Andre Cormier]

I did get it but unfortunately I am away on a business trip. So I won't have time to even take it out of the box until late next week. I also need to run electrical.

I'll let you know

[John Shuk]

I have to say, the format of this forum website is a bit odd. Hard to tell which replies are to what post and they end up all through the thread.

I think since you put money on one a few months ago, they were probably holding it for you. They usually have them in stock, so holding one for you would not be a big deal. Maybe when I asked if he had one to sell me right now, they realized that they needed to hold that last one for you!

My information came from Steve at Laguna.

Yes I am ordering one. I'm getting a quote sent to me today. Trying to get the free shipping on top of the deal I made with them before the free shipping offer came out. We'll see. If it happens that way, it will be a very good package price I think.

I had a frank discussion with Steve about my experience with the sander. I told him that I'm really crossing my fingers that their bandsaws are built a lot better than that sander. He said they just started having problems with that sander model and they've taken it off their website. I guess they run into problems with inconsistent build quality from the Asian manufacturers.

Greg

I bought an LT 16 bandsaw from them a few years back made in Bulgaria. It is/was not a good experience.
I'd buy Grizzly and not look back based on the experiences of lots of Creekers.

[Van Huskey]

I bought an LT 16 bandsaw from them a few years back made in Bulgaria. It is/was not a good experience.
I'd buy Grizzly and not look back based on the experiences of lots of Creekers.


He already bought the Laguna, watching over the years it is clear Laguna had some teething issues with CS as they expanded the company, not unlike Grizzly in an earlier time period. I think you bought during that time, Laguna has been making an effort to do better in that regard and they have based on what I have read. They are still one of the big 4 suppliers of high-end saws and the only one of the four that has made an effort to bring the price point of their innovations down with non-Italian built saws, this may have been a source of some of their issues if some of the people ordered non-Italian saws but expected Italian saw quality at non-Italian saw prices.

[Greg Roberts]

He already bought the Laguna, watching over the years it is clear Laguna had some teething issues with CS as they expanded the company, not unlike Grizzly in an earlier time period. I think you bought during that time, Laguna has been making an effort to do better in that regard and they have based on what I have read. They are still one of the big 4 suppliers of high-end saws and the only one of the four that has made an effort to bring the price point of their innovations down with non-Italian built saws, this may have been a source of some of their issues if some of the people ordered non-Italian saws but expected Italian saw quality at non-Italian saw prices.

I'm still wondering exactly what the differences are between an Italian Laguna and an Asian Laguna in build quality. I hear people talk about the differences, but I'm not sure I've got a good grasp of exactly what is better about the Italian ones. Is the steel frame thicker? Is the motor of better quality? Do they run smoother? Last longer? Cut straighter? I don't know. . . .

I've been looking real hard at the Laguna LT18 (Italian built) and comparing it to the Laguna LT18/3000 (Asian built), and I don't see much of a difference.

Compared with the Asian built one, the Italian built one has a 4.5hp Baldor motor instead of the 4hp Leeson motor, a bigger table by a few inches, takes a longer blade and can go 1/8" larger on the blade size, and has an additional 3 inches of re-saw (15" to 18", both are huge).

The Asian built one has all the same features otherwise, and actually weighs 15 lbs. more, so it's hard to say that the frame of the Italian one is thicker steel. If you buy the Asian one, you'll save $1,100 over the Italian one.

I'm having a hard time seeing where that $1,100 is going.

I talked to Steve at Laguna, and he said they've worked hard to get the quality of the Asian machines to be just like the European ones, and he thinks they are very close now.

Greg

[Greg Roberts]

I did get it but unfortunately I am away on a business trip. So I won't have time to even take it out of the box until late next week. I also need to run electrical.

I'll let you know

Please hurry! ;)

Greg

[Van Huskey]

I'm still wondering exactly what the differences are between an Italian Laguna and an Asian Laguna in build quality. I hear people talk about the differences, but I'm not sure I've got a good grasp of exactly what is better about the Italian ones. Is the steel frame thicker? Is the motor of better quality? Do they run smoother? Last longer? Cut straighter? I don't know. . . .

I've been looking real hard at the Laguna LT18 (Italian built) and comparing it to the Laguna LT18/3000 (Asian built), and I don't see much of a difference.

Compared with the Asian built one, the Italian built one has a 4.5hp Baldor motor instead of the 4hp Leeson motor, a bigger table by a few inches, takes a longer blade and can go 1/8" larger on the blade size, and has an additional 3 inches of re-saw (15" to 18", both are huge).

The Asian built one has all the same features otherwise, and actually weighs 15 lbs. more, so it's hard to say that the frame of the Italian one is thicker steel. If you buy the Asian one, you'll save $1,100 over the Italian one.

I'm having a hard time seeing where that $1,100 is going.

I talked to Steve at Laguna, and he said they've worked hard to get the quality of the Asian machines to be just like the European ones, and he thinks they are very close now.

Greg


First, I have no problem with Chiwanese machines but you do have to be more careful when buying them than European machines to make sure you are getting quality. Once the Asian market matures in any manufacturing process the difference become smaller and smaller. Look at automobiles the best Japanese cars are near the engineering level of the German counterparts and actually exceed them in quality ion many areas, and though often difficult to quantify the German cars often exceed the Japanese cars in very special ways, I say this as a long time and currect owner of both. The Italian saws have better fit and finish and in broad terms are better engineered than the Asian saws generally and specifically from Laguna. The Euro post WWII machine manufacturers followed the car manufacturers in steel/aluminum construction (unlike their US counterparts) and learned to make strong and light machines.

I think the best way to compare is see them both in one place and look at them both carefully, you will see the differences BUT one must ask themselves where the point of diminishing returns are for THEM. I have yet to actually use an Asian bandsaw that met the level of quality and useabilty that the Italian saws have the only one that I think might have a shot at them that I have not USED is the G0701 but in the showroom on static display the Italians have an edge in feel and fit and finish, though at least on the feel side is closer to the Italians than anything else.

The Laguna Asian saws are excellent and in my mind a good value and are engineered well but they are not the equal of their ACM built saws. If you are a "car guy" remember that the heaviest frames are not always the stiffest and engineering and assembly is as important as the brute strength of more metal if not more so.

I have dealt with the Laguna sales staff in two capacities, one as salesmen and second as just another woodworker chatting, the second has always been at a show face to face. In the sales capacity if they see you as a Asian saw interested person they "sale" their 3000 line to you, if they see you as a Italian saw interested kinda guy they sale the ACM built line. In person they appreciate Jesse and Agazzani and the Minimax saws and wax poetic about how much they love the Italian saws, something they wouldn't do so openly with their sales hat on. They also discuss frankly the differences in their 3000 line.

In the end my take with the ACM vs Chinese saws is that the latter can get every near the cut quality of the former BUT one has to work harder to get it. If one feels like spending the money on an Italian bandsaw you will more than likely be happy, but if you have never used one then you will likely be just as happy with the better Asian saws just like if you have not driven a modern 911 a Corvette might feel like the ultimate driving car. If however you have used a tuned Italian saw you are less likely to be 100% happy with an Asian saw but again diminishing returns is the key.

I don't want to sound down on Asian saws, some of them are excellent like the Laguna 3000 line, but they just aren't as good as the Italian saws though the gap is MUCH closer than it was in the past.


OT: Greg you make some gorgeous horns! I have always been a Klipsch fan (heritage stuff not the new) but now only use them for HT, I find it bizarre that in the HT world so few have discovered the value of good horns, the macro-dynamics of a horn system alone makes it an excellent HT speaker. I find it funny when people are spending monster money on 500 wpc+ amps to drive low efficiency speakers to levels that match their subs... :eek: Ole Paul (RIP) could do it with a Walmart receiver volume wise that is. I am planning a new HT in the next couple of years and I really want to do 3 Jubilees across the front...

[Greg Roberts]

First, I have no problem with Chiwanese machines but you do have to be more careful when buying them than European machines to make sure you are getting quality. Once the Asian market matures in any manufacturing process the difference become smaller and smaller. Look at automobiles the best Japanese cars are near the engineering level of the German counterparts and actually exceed them in quality ion many areas, and though often difficult to quantify the German cars often exceed the Japanese cars in very special ways, I say this as a long time and currect owner of both. The Italian saws have better fit and finish and in broad terms are better engineered than the Asian saws generally and specifically from Laguna. The Euro post WWII machine manufacturers followed the car manufacturers in steel/aluminum construction (unlike their US counterparts) and learned to make strong and light machines.

I think the best way to compare is see them both in one place and look at them both carefully, you will see the differences BUT one must ask themselves where the point of diminishing returns are for THEM. I have yet to actually use an Asian bandsaw that met the level of quality and useabilty that the Italian saws have the only one that I think might have a shot at them that I have not USED is the G0701 but in the showroom on static display the Italians have an edge in feel and fit and finish, though at least on the feel side is closer to the Italians than anything else.

The Laguna Asian saws are excellent and in my mind a good value and are engineered well but they are not the equal of their ACM built saws. If you are a "car guy" remember that the heaviest frames are not always the stiffest and engineering and assembly is as important as the brute strength of more metal if not more so.

I have dealt with the Laguna sales staff in two capacities, one as salesmen and second as just another woodworker chatting, the second has always been at a show face to face. In the sales capacity if they see you as a Asian saw interested person they "sale" their 3000 line to you, if they see you as a Italian saw interested kinda guy they sale the ACM built line. In person they appreciate Jesse and Agazzani and the Minimax saws and wax poetic about how much they love the Italian saws, something they wouldn't do so openly with their sales hat on. They also discuss frankly the differences in their 3000 line.

In the end my take with the ACM vs Chinese saws is that the latter can get every near the cut quality of the former BUT one has to work harder to get it. If one feels like spending the money on an Italian bandsaw you will more than likely be happy, but if you have never used one then you will likely be just as happy with the better Asian saws just like if you have not driven a modern 911 a Corvette might feel like the ultimate driving car. If however you have used a tuned Italian saw you are less likely to be 100% happy with an Asian saw but again diminishing returns is the key.

I don't want to sound down on Asian saws, some of them are excellent like the Laguna 3000 line, but they just aren't as good as the Italian saws though the gap is MUCH closer than it was in the past.


OT: Greg you make some gorgeous horns! I have always been a Klipsch fan (heritage stuff not the new) but now only use them for HT, I find it bizarre that in the HT world so few have discovered the value of good horns, the macro-dynamics of a horn system alone makes it an excellent HT speaker. I find it funny when people are spending monster money on 500 wpc+ amps to drive low efficiency speakers to levels that match their subs... :eek: Ole Paul (RIP) could do it with a Walmart receiver volume wise that is. I am planning a new HT in the next couple of years and I really want to do 3 Jubilees across the front...

Thanks for that in-depth analysis. I get what you're saying. I can't bring myself to spend $1,100 more on the Laguna LT18 just because it's Italian. After studying pictures for hours, I cannot see enough of a difference. But that doesn't mean I am not considering a different brand Italian saw. Still looking . . . . Still think I'm going to end up with the LT18/3000.

Sure wish I could go to a webpage and look at the Agazzani saws! I know, I know, just call Eagle Tools. I like to look at things before I buy them. I don't know, just funny that way. ;)

Another Klipschophile eh? I own a pair of Klipsch Jubilees and they are awesome speakers. At first, I couldn't keep them into my living room for very long (the only real good listening room I have) because of the WAF. Now they don't stay in the living room very long because of what I've been able to do with the sound of my Khorns. The Jubilees are more powerful, but the modified Khorns are much more musical. In fact, I've got my system to the point now, that most of the time I'm listening to pure music floating in front of me, not listening to the equipment. This is something I could not get with the Jubilees.

Thank you for the kind words.

Greg

[Greg Roberts]

Ok, I emailed Eagle Tools.

Greg

[Van Huskey]

Thanks for that in-depth analysis. I get what you're saying. I can't bring myself to spend $1,100 more on the Laguna LT18 just because it's Italian. After studying pictures for hours, I cannot see enough of a difference. But that doesn't mean I am not considering a different brand Italian saw. Still looking . . . . Still think I'm going to end up with the LT18/3000.

Sure wish I could go to a webpage and look at the Agazzani saws! I know, I know, just call Eagle Tools. I like to look at things before I buy them. I don't know, just funny that way. ;)

Another Klipschophile eh? I own a pair of Klipsch Jubilees and they are awesome speakers. At first, I couldn't keep them into my living room for very long (the only real good listening room I have) because of the WAF. Now they don't stay in the living room very long because of what I've been able to do with the sound of my Khorns. The Jubilees are more powerful, but the modified Khorns are much more musical. In fact, I've got my system to the point now, that most of the time I'm listening to pure music floating in front of me, not listening to the equipment. This is something I could not get with the Jubilees.

Thank you for the kind words.

Greg


PM me your email address and I will forward emails re the Agazzani saws if you are interested, has a decent number of pictures. But frankly in pictures all the Italian saws look very similar. I was set on an Agazzani until I stumbled on a deal for a like new Minimax MM20 that I could not pass up. You might try looking at the MM site and view the video on the MM16 it has a lot of good info (not the setup video the "sales" video). The LT18 3000 is an excellent saw and much farther from the point of diminishing returns than any of the Italian saws.


The center Jubilee will be behind a acoustically transparent screen and the L&R will be behind acoustic cloth so on SAP to deal with. I have moved away from horns for two channel, my pet peeve is imaging and I have grown fond of mini-monitors, right now I have a pair of Totem Mani 2s that image like lasers. We are at our vacation home now so only a HT system, Paradigm based so my 2 channel is Studio 20s V3 fed by a Denon receiver with a bluray disc front end... :( When I build my shop/garage here I am closing in the attached garage for a HT room but I am thinking about using the (hopefully) excellent acoustics to set up a 2 channel also, maybe KEF Reference, Dynaudio, JM Lab or maybe just maybe some Bose... (joke obviously). Or maybe take the time to build a set based on Scan-Speak drivers that I have been bangin' around in my head for a while.

[mreza Salav]

So did any one of you get the LT18-3000? Any comments on that particular machine?
I'm seriously thinking of buying one.