Fine Tuning Dovetail Fit?

[Steve Branam]

I feel reasonably competent in the making of dovetails as functional joints, but I have problems fine tuning the fit. The advice you see everywhere is always along the lines "wherever it's tight, pare it down." That's pretty vague.

The problem I have is figuring out just where it's tight. In a joint with 4 or 5 tails, that's 8 or 10 mating surfaces. What I've been doing is fitting it as much as it will go, then sighting along the length of the tails and in between them to see where there's contact. I scribble with a pencil by what appear to be the high spots, then pull it apart and pare on them from various directions, trying to avoid crumbling and tearout.

While this mostly works, it invariably ends up with inconsistent gaps. Some of them can be ugly.

I'm looking for a procedure or strategy that will give me consistent gaps. Maybe it just comes down to more practice, but if I'm doing something wrong, I'd like to be able to correct it.

[geoff wood]

sometimes you can see where the fibers are starting to compress when you are hammering the board home, if it is too tight. also, if you are leaving lines on your pin-board(assuming you are cutting tails first) put the pin board in your vise with a sacrificial piece behind it and pare to the line with a wicked sharp chisel. also the same can be done to the tails before marking the pin board. use epoxy instead of wood-glue on tight fitting joinery, it acts as a sort of lubrication whilst the wood glue will cause the wood to swell.

[Larry Marshall]

I feel reasonably competent in the making of dovetails as functional joints, but I have problems fine tuning the fit. The advice you see everywhere is always along the lines "wherever it's tight, pare it down." That's pretty vague.

Steve, this is THE question that isn't addressed by those teaching dovetailing. Truth is, if you watch them, their 'secret' is that they are good at cutting to a line and don't use a lot of paring, if any, to fit their dovetails. It doesn't matter if you're watching Underhill, Klauz, or Cosman, they're methods are about sawing, not chiseling.

Lots of saw practice is required to achieve this skill level, of course, and practice isn't something that most woodworkers want to do. They seem to believe that 'they'll get better with experience' and that's certainly true. The question is what can one do to speed up the experience? If you draw 100s of lines on a scrap board and cut to each of them, your saw precision will increase much more quickly than simply relying upon the dozen or so cuts you make each time you want to cut dovetails. You'll even be able to see and feel your improvement.

You probably have thought about this but the problem with "fitting" dovetails is that fit isn't just about removing wood that prevents the joints going together. It's also about space between the surfaces. It's about the relationship between one dovetail and the other. And every bit of wood you remove by paring will change these two things as well as allowing the surface you pared to fit with its mate. And so, fitting by paring becomes a puzzle where removing a bit of wood has the potential to move the entire string of dovetails left/right and also to open a gap on the other side of the dovetail. You end up chasing your tail. I feel your pain :-)

Cheers --- Larry

[John Coloccia]

you can rub a little chalk on one side and see where it ends up on the other side. The bottom line, though, is the best way is to practice, practice and practice, saw to the lines, and chop away the waste precisely and accurately the first time. Going back and trimming to fit is by far the hardest way of doing it.

[Jon van der Linden]

I'd recommend either taking a class or picking up a good dvd for some tips on layout and cutting. While it is possible to "fine tune" errors, dovetail joints should be primarily sawcut to sawcut.

Some others might be able to provide good advice if you're more specific about the kinds of problems your having and what the source of the inaccuracy is.

[Jon van der Linden]

Yep, practice is very important, or rather perfect practice is important.

[Kari Hultman]

You can rub pencil on the sides of the pins. When you tap the joint together and pull it apart, the high spots on the tail board will have graphite on them so you know where to pare. As others have said, the shiny spots also reveal high spots.

[Tri Hoang]

Use a pencil to mark & examine for rubbing marks. It'd take forever if you've got a bunch of drawers to fit.

It's all about sawing straight/square & transferring layout lines. The ability to saw to a line is critical in hand tool work, not just dovetail. It's not difficult but it does require a lot of practice as other have said.

In the beginning, I was practicing with just a single board. Layout the lines, cut them, & examined my mistakes. Then I made practice joints...about 40 of them, once everyday. Now, I just use my hand saws whenever I have a chance instead of going for the miter/band saw. As I use hand saws more often, My sawing skill improves. I'm far from being an expert but I don't have to spend a lot of time fixing sawing mistakes either. I also learn to sharpen my own saws and that helps too.

[Sean Hughto]

Alright, time for some heresy. I'm about to get pounded by the "just learn to saw" crowd.

I will admit that sawing well is the best alternative, but who wants to wait until they can saw perfectly every time before making gap free dovetails? While you're getting there with the saw, you can adopt abother strategy, if you are willing to add another step or two to your dovetailing. First, spend some extra time in marking your dovetails with a knife line on every side and a wheel gauge at the bottom. Second, saw as close as you can to the line in the waste side. As you get better at sawing you will get to the point that you split the knife line most of the time along it's whole length and on both sides, but at the beginning, the back side may be out or the angle might be lost along it's length. Now just use the chisel to pare to the lines where necessary. Such paring is not that time consuming if you have sawn as well as you can. Indeed, paring the baseline areas, which even good sawers have to do takes as long or longer. These steps take some skill - skill in marking and skill in paring, but they offer an alternative while you work up to perfect sawing. Good luck.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3095/2864599314_7466bf3ac2_z.jpg?zz=1

[gary Zimmel]

Well said Sean.
For me there is always paring. But pretty much all of the time I do half blind joints. The better the sawing the less paring...
For me the layout has to be done with a good marking knife that will leave a crisp line. I use extra lights at my bench to help see the lines. Sharp tools, real sharp make the job a lot easier.
One other thing I do to help the tight joint go together is to pare the corners off the back side of the tails. Fine line between to loose and see gaps or make it too tight and split the joint.
I don't test fit my joints as I would do damage to the small pins taking it apart.

160456


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[Steve Branam]

Thanks for the all hints! Larry, you've hit the problem dead on, you adjust here and it all goes out of whack elsewhere, like trying to solve a Rubik's cube.

I think I can saw closer to the line. I've been following Roy Underhill's advice from the Woodwright's Apprentice. He doesn't stress the sawing so closely in that one, more the adjusting, so maybe I was taking too much liberty with the clearance.

I fully agree with the sawing practice. I like Tom Lie-Nielsen's video where he's sawing repeated lines as practice. This may also help with my mortise and tenon joints, where I have much the same problem.

I'm working on some dovetailed toolboxes, so they don't have to be perfect, but I was hoping to refine my technique on them. I have two more to go on the first box, so I'll try that this afternoon.

[Steve Branam]

Ok, here are some initial results. I had cut all the pins and two sets of tails yesterday. That left the tails on the two ends of one board for today.

My first tail end, I knifed the pin outlines (difficult to keep the pin board in place while getting a deep enough knife line) then knifed them across the edge with a small square. Then I concentrated on sawing JUST to the waste side of the knife lines. The result was pretty good except for two tails that needed some paring, and two pins that needed paring where they weren't sawn perfectly straight down from the edge. This still took a while before I could fit it with only moderate taps from the mallet. Still a bit of gappage, but at least I was able to identify the problem spots fairly easily.

The second tail end, I marked the pin outlines with pencil, then knifed across the end-grain with the square JUST to inside edge of the pencil lines (i.e. not the waste side). Then I used those as the kerf starts, so now I was cutting each tail side a pencil-line width's narrower. The result was a joint that fit together with hand pressure first try. Still roughly the same amount of gappage as the previous one, but without needing 30 minutes of fiddling to get there.

So I'll call that incremental progress. I'll do some more practice cutting to lines. Once I can get my cuts to be more consistent, I'll use this method (knifing just inside the pencil line) to control the tolerance until I can get a hand-pressure fit with smaller gaps.

[Sean Hughto]

That's what it's all about - finding what works for you.

One thing, different woods have different needs as far as fit. The softer woods are forgiving as they compress easily, The harder woods are much less forgiving.

[gary Zimmel]

If your tail board is sliding around try this.
I put a small ledge, with a skew block plane, on the back side of the tail board.
This is done before the tails are cut.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=106244&thumb=1&d=1231391123

This will keep the tail board from moving around while one is scribing the pins.
Very easy now to get clean scribe lines.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=106246&thumb=1&d=1231391673

I use my 4 1/2 as a block to hold the tail board up.


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[Brian Ward]

Another idea for supporting the tailboard is a block of wood with fairly fine-grit sandpaper glued to opposite faces.

I'm not sure I want to delve into the original topic here. You want to aim for a perfect fit off the saw, but getting to that point can be elusive. I've mostly gotten there, but I don't know how it happened other than that I practiced.

[Derek A. Johnson]

I have been focusing on dovetails recently and trying to teach myself to saw a straight line consistently. I just today posted my experiences on another forum, but since it relates to your question I have copied it below. (What are you supposed to do in these situations? I always disliked seeing the same post across several sites, yet I doubt I am supposed to link to it...).

My suggestion is similar to others--practice sawing. It will not take forever. Major fine-tuning of dovetails is a drag to be avoided.

Derek




Copy of post below:

Everyone says to practice, but who would have thought that so much could go into learning to saw a straight line. I found that to judge my results accurately I had to saw a sliver of wood at the end of the board, cut it off at the baseline, and check the sawn surface with my square. My first problem was that my cuts weren't square to the face of the board (the heel of the saw moved left as it traveled downward). Once I fixed that, the second major problem was that the top of the saw tilted left as it moved downward. Both of these problems were much easier to detect when I cut away the wood to the right of the kerf so I could get a square on the surface. I check that the surface is 90 degrees to the face all the way down, then lay a ruler across the surface at the top of the kerf, slide the square up to it, and then check to see if the kerf went straight down.
How did I correct my sawing technique? First, I bought a Veritas dovetail saw (thank you Rob Lee). Second, after one project in white oak I found that the saw was taking more strokes to cut, so I sharpened it and the number of strokes dropped to half--less chance to screw up, it seems (thank you TFWW for the saw vise, and Mike Wenzloff/Port Townsend School of WW for the sharpening class). I started to hold the saw more lightly, using almost no downward force (thank you to whoever said "Imagine you are holding a tiny bird in your hand"). Then, I had to train myself to stiffen my wrist and cock it a bit to the right. The final major improvement came when I focused on long, smooth strokes. Other key items include index finger pointed forward on top of saw back; arm free to swing in a straight line; checking the saw for vertical with a square after establishing the kerf, but before continuing the cut; bracing the saw with my thumb at first after checking for square; putting my thumbnail in the knife line at the far side of the board to rest the saw plate against, then lowering the saw into the line as I cut; and holding most of the saw's weight off the wood went starting the cut.
The results? Well, I am making the school box from PWW magazine and have finished three of the dovetailed corners so far. All three of them have gone together without paring, straight from the saw (thank you Rob Cosman/Lie-Nielsen for the dovetail video, and for putting the idea in my head that this should be doable). I still live in fear that my consistency will disappear overnight, and so I make practice cuts just before the real thing.

[Sean Hughto]

So let's see, Derek, all you had to do was buy a new dovetail saw, a new sharpening vise, pay for a class with Mike Wenzloff, buy a Rob Cosman video, and practice a ton. You also assume that what worked for you will necessarily work for everyone. It's nice to be humble, but some folks have talents and aptitudes that allow skills to come to them more easily than to others.

It seems that the mantra that one must fit dovetails right off the saw is in many ways helpful to those who wish to sell saws, classes, and videos.

Most fitting in woodworking starts with removing waste to a line. Tools remove the waste. 'Lectric router dovetails fit right off the router! The jig or the markings are what determine whether something fits right off, not what tool you used to get to the marking.

I agree that sawing well saves time and is to be strived for. But I feel bad for struggling newbies when sawing is emphasized over marking by those who are already at the other side of the learning curve (no to mention those who want to sell stuff).

BTW, you can't rely on a saw much for half blinds. That's a lot of chiseling/paring to lines.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2378/2259241434_987e13762c.jpg

[Derek A. Johnson]

I found major fine-tuning of dovetails to be no fun at all. It was either continue to avoid dovetails, buy and learn to use a jig, or learn to saw better. I am enjoying handtools more and more, so I went that route. I was pleased to find that it seems to be possible, and yes, I am assuming it will work for others (I'm a teacher, and it is politically incorrect not to believe that everyone can learn...:)

I shared what I did in case it is helpful, but obviously there are many ways to proceed. While I would strongly recommend a decent saw, you can use a hacksaw if you wish. A homemade saw vise, sharpening instructions off the internet, and the search feature on forums can replace the other items. As a hobbyist with limited time, I enjoyed purchasing and learning to use these items, and the interaction with others at classes. I think woodworkers are lucky to have the quality products and instructors we have today, and would encourage anyone wanting to learn to saw better to spend $65 on a saw and $20 on a video. I feel bad for struggling newbies trying to cut dovetails with a low quality saw, then spending too much time messing with them only to get mediocre results. How discouraging.

The original question was about fitting dovetails. Minor paring to your carefully scribed knife lines is fine, and careful marking is critical. However, there are two steps--marking, then cutting to those marks. I agree with other posters that it is better and easier to fine tune your sawing than fine tune pins and tails.

Derek

[geoff wood]

i find i have better success sawing to a line when i don't try as hard, be relaxed. also it is safe practice to get out of your saw's way... it wants to cut straight, just let it. if i saw off my line when cutting tails(tails first) i will just leave it, just as long as my cut is square to the opposite side. if a few tails/pins are off 1/32" or so from one other (but wood is still touching wood) the eye will pickup that it is made by hand. i find a great practice is to try to saw a line/dovetail square in all dimensions just by eye.

[Steve Branam]

All these points are well-taken. I appreciate the fine details of sawing technique you guys are sharing, as well as the failure analysis to figure out what was going wrong. I believe some of these do apply in my case.

Of course no matter how good I get with sawing, mistakes are inevitable. If we didn't persevere in the face of mistakes, we'd never accomplish anything. So I need to know the same level of fine detail in how to recover from them. Those details then apply to making half-blind dovetails, since they can't be done by sawing alone.

I'm using a good saw, an LN dovetail saw, though I haven't sharpened it on my own yet. I use a home-made saw vise on my larger saws (though the DT saw is small enough to use my home-made scraper vise that looks similar to the one Tom Lie-Nielsen uses in his videos). I'm following the instructions in several different books, trying to glean nuggets of advice from the diversity of instructors.

Geoff's point about focusing on being square when cutting the tails and accepting a little error in the angle is good. The goal is to get the plane of the pin or tail face to be perfect in both dimensions (down and across), but it seems for each one there's a more critical dimension than the other that will affect the overall fit. Out-of-square tail cuts and out-of-perpendicular pin cuts will mean lots of adjusting just to get it to fit. Out-of-angle cuts in the other dimension may still mean adjusting, and will mean gaps, but things should at least go together more easily. That's my theory, anyway!

[Derek Cohen]

To answer the original question, that is, how to fine tune dovetails ...

1. When fitting the pin- and tail boards together, they will go together without further attention if the boards can be pushed together halfway (always chamfer the inside of the tails to avoid bruising the edges before pushing them together).

2. If they do not, you have to determine which pin-tail combination(s) need work. This is when you look for shiny surfaces, which are evidence of too much pressure at a point.

3. I have always used an extremely sharp chisel when tuning since you want to remove the finest of shavings. Always take off less - you cannot put the wood back if you take off too much. Observe the grain direction - paring with the grain is very risky. Pare across the grain instead.

4. Instead of a chisel you can use a file made of sandpaper glued to hardwood or a narrow width of scraper steel.

I include a link to an article I wrote on dovetails. There are many tips on improving accuracy: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/MakingBetter%20Dovetails.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jake Helmboldt]

Steve, this is THE question that isn't addressed by those teaching dovetailing. Truth is, if you watch them, their 'secret' is that they are good at cutting to a line and don't use a lot of paring, if any, to fit their dovetails. It doesn't matter if you're watching Underhill, Klauz, or Cosman, they're methods are about sawing, not chiseling.

Lots of saw practice is required to achieve this skill level, of course, and practice isn't something that most woodworkers want to do. They seem to believe that 'they'll get better with experience' and that's certainly true. The question is what can one do to speed up the experience? If you draw 100s of lines on a scrap board and cut to each of them, your saw precision will increase much more quickly than simply relying upon the dozen or so cuts you make each time you want to cut dovetails. You'll even be able to see and feel your improvement.

You probably have thought about this but the problem with "fitting" dovetails is that fit isn't just about removing wood that prevents the joints going together. It's also about space between the surfaces. It's about the relationship between one dovetail and the other. And every bit of wood you remove by paring will change these two things as well as allowing the surface you pared to fit with its mate. And so, fitting by paring becomes a puzzle where removing a bit of wood has the potential to move the entire string of dovetails left/right and also to open a gap on the other side of the dovetail. You end up chasing your tail. I feel your pain :-)

Cheers --- Larry

Larry, that might be the most insightful post I've seen on cutting DTs. From now on I'm not going to waste time trying to pare corrections, only to find other gaps.

Thanks!

[Andrew Gibson]

I learned how to cut dovetails from a book when I was about 15. I got the book from the local library, I have no idea what the title of the book was and I doubt I would be able to identify it if I saw it.
My first dovetail saw was a gents saw from sears. It had set wide enough to fill the grand canyon and was filed crosscut. Anyway I got the general idea. I built a tool chest then a chest of drawers.
A few years ago I bought a LN and attempted half blinds, they turned out fairly well.
This year I built a cabinet with 2 drawers, and again they turned out OK. For some reason I never had a problem with half blinds.
now my DT's are not perfect but every time I cut some I get better. I have been working on some small DT boxes for storing my waterstones, and I have been focusing on improving my DT's, finding where I made my mistakes and eliminating the problems. I finished up the third box today. All 4 joints fit from the saw, the only problem is that my chiseling at the bed line is a little messy. However my chisel goes from razor sharp to quite dull in about 2/3 tails. I need to invest in some good quality chisels and I think I will be just about there.
the key for me is to mark out front and back of the tails, always saw from the front, then touch up the back by pairing to the line if I don't hit it with the saw. Square tails make marking the pins easy.

[Jim Koepke]

The sawing is very important. If not square, then things are not going to fit together properly.

I usually do mine tails first. It really doesn't matter. Once the tails are cut and cleaned up to my liking, the pins are marked. After that point, all the paring is done to the pins. For me, if I go back and forth on the paring I lose my place and eventually nothing fits.

I also find if I do a bunch of dove tails, they tend to get better as I go. So the practice is good and maybe even do some practice dovetails just before cutting the finished dovetails.

I also find it is important to have a solid piece of scrap underneath the wood you are paring or chopping on or you can get some bad results.

jim

[Adam Cherubini]

Always look to the baseline first when fitting dts. A little extra material left in one will cause all adjacent joints to be tight.

Adam

[John Coloccia]

re: half blind dovetails
There's a lot of pairing, but the saw completely cuts the tails and the visible part of the pins

re: pairing, selling saws, and other stuff
The reason you want to fit the dovetails straight from the saw isn't to sell saws. It's because it's an order of magnitude EASIER for most people to learn to saw to a line than it is to learn to wield a chisel with the precision and judgement necessary to pair with satisfactory results. All you have to do to saw to a line is really just learn how to start the saw. The saw will cut and go straight all by itself. Guiding a chisel to take off wisps of wood, on the other hand, can be difficult even for experienced woodworkers. I certainly can't do it consistently. Ditto for cutting tenons. For me, trimming shoulders is a near impossible task but accurately sawing a shoulder just requires a little concentration and practice.

[Sean Hughto]

The word is pare, for what it's worth.

If you are ever inthe DC area, let me know and I'll show a you few things I've doped out about using chisels. They make perfect shoulders relatively easy.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3137/3106480658_70321f040f_z.jpg?zz=1
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3132/3116548915_f192b790a2_z.jpg?zz=1

[Larry Marshall]

Alright, time for some heresy. I'm about to get pounded by the "just learn to saw" crowd.

I will admit that sawing well is the best alternative, but who wants to wait until they can saw perfectly every time before making gap free dovetails? While you're getting there with the saw, you can adopt abother strategy, if you are willing to add another step or two to your dovetailing.


<grin>...Sean, it's unfortunate that forum discussions can never seem to work with the color "gray." We talk in black and white and you've just illustrated that. My response did too, because I wasn't more precise in my word usage.

In your post you start by donning fireproof underwear in the form of "the saw guys will get me" statement and then proceed to talk about an "alternative" which amounts to paying close attention to marking and sawing very close to (or removing) the line. What is 'learn to saw' if it's not that (grin)?

The problem with our language is that we use words like "paring" as though they mean something precise. They do not. Think about a lot of the responses here to proper post-saw paring of dovetails to achieve fit. The seasoned woodworkers emphasize identification of places to pare by shiny spots, or graphite transfers between parts THAT FIT TOGETHER. This can only happen if you're pretty good with a saw. When they're talking about 'paring' they're talking about removing a couple of thousandths here, a couple of thousandths there.

But most newbies are looking at dovetails that don't fit together (because they haven't learned to saw) and their "paring" involves removing 1/32 here, 1/32 there. The gap between what most of us do to improve fit with a chisel and what a newbie is doing is huge and yet our language seems to prevent us from discussing it.

[Sean Hughto]

I dunno what's black and white about my statement. If one is in the Cosman sort of fit-perfectly-right-from-the-saw camp, you do indeed have to be able to hit your mark with the saw on every cheek cut for every tail and pin. I suppose that portions of the cut that will be hidden after assembly can be off a little, but not much, since those areas are what one uses to mark the opposite board. If you stray from the waste on any cut and get into the meat of the tail or pin, you have a gap. There is no room for error. You must always saw all the waste and only the waste. Do you disagree?

If you're telling me that when folks say "fit from the saw" they really mean: "I saw really close to the line and routinely pare fine sheets of cheek material to remove the last wisp of waste" then that's news to me. The difference between removing 1/32 or removing five thousands is merely that it takes a LOT longer to remove 1/32nd because you had better not take that off all at once. In both cases you are simply removing waste to a line (same with the saw, as I have said).

[David Weaver]

Fit from the saw is fit from the saw. Unless it's a museum piece, paring can get you in trouble. Tails first for me for no reason other than because it's easier for me to cut a vertical cut next to a mark than it is for me to cut a tail on the mark.

If we're talking about through dovetails, paring requires the room to pare, and that room isn't always wanted, not even minding the fact that paring is a pain to be avoided, and it's easier to do to a mark, which you may or may not have. Guessing on tight tails or pins and making a bad guess just makes things worse.

For halfblinds, you obviously can't avoid it, but there seems to be a lot of people who talk about paring through dovetails, pins (yikes) or tails.

I would rather have to shim a tail here or there than deal with paring all of those joints. Save that kind of repeated test fit stuff for dovetails in steel.

That's just yet another opinion to add to the pile.

[John Coloccia]

The word is pare, for what it's worth.


Tell that to the auto correct on my iPhone! ;)

[Prashun Patel]

FWIW, I've benefitted greatly from Sean's advice previously and didn't find his statement (or any previous posts) divisive.

Anyway, I'm learning how to cut dovetails too. My 2cents is that we should be spending more time on practicing cutting. If I were to attempt a perfect joint now, I'd need to spend about 90% of the time on paring. For me, it's more efficient to practice daily sawing a single joint, and not wasting time on the paring practice. I don't think there's any shortcutting it; you (I mean "I") need more muscle memory.

As for the paring, the 'trick' is to understand where the nonvisible faces are, like on the insides and bottoms of the tails and pins. Also, chamfer the insides of the tails to make accepting the pins easier (hat tipped to Derek Cohen).

Last, I'm a big fan of a good rasp or a tiny Microplane. These tools can remove stock in a very precise way and the learning curve is not steep.

[Steve Branam]

Shaun, I read over your presentation on M&T joints that these pics are from over on Derek's site, very nice, some of the fine details I was talking about! As I mentioned above, M&T fitting is my next challenge. (And Derek, thanks for the pointer to your dovetail tuning article!)

Now, you need to post a video of that fine paring. I'd like to watch as you go through that to get from rough sawn face to clean pared face, but I won't be in DC anytime soon. Static photos just don't capture enough.

These are the things that will help take me to the next level, from building stuff that just holds together, to stuff that looks good up close as well.

I should also note, I've been doing these pins-first, which means standing a long board on its pins to mark the tails (I do shoot the ends, so the 33" board stands on end by itself without support). That's tricky to get close, visible lines without bumping the pin board and shifting it. I'll do the next one tails-first, then I can clamp the pin board upright and rest the tail board flat on its end. That should be easier to manage.

And Jim, I like your suggestion of paring only on the pins (assuming I cut the tails square). I think that was part of what was driving me batty, was trying to figure do I pare the pin or do I pare the tail at each point.

[Jim Koepke]

And Jim, I like your suggestion of paring only on the pins (assuming I cut the tails square). I think that was part of what was driving me batty, was trying to figure do I pare the pin or do I pare the tail at each point.

Though my sawing is getting better at cutting square, the tails will get paring attention if required before the pins get marked.

jim