Wood flooring installation experience/advice?

[Curt Harms]

Talk about scope creep:o. We started out looking for an open box of flooring for a few pieces to replace some wet/stained strips. A couple days later there are 17 boxes of 3/4" Bruce prefinished flooring stacked in the garage--enough to do the first floor of our Townhouse. The carpets are 15 years old and in need of replacement but oh my. We did get it for half off retail price ($2.00/square foot). Never having done wood strip flooring, I have a few questions.



This will be going over convention 2 X joists and 5/8" or 3/4" plywood subfloor. Some web sites show rosin paper over the subfloor. Is 15# rosin paper a good idea vs. nailing directly to the subfloor?
One guy where we got the flooring said to run the strips parallel to the joists. A web site said to run perpendicular to the joists. Perpendicular seems like a better idea--at least some of the fasteners would go into the joists.
Staples vs. Cleats. I bought a nailer that claims to do either. Any advantage either way?

Thanks in advance for any advice or experience you have had. I believe in learning from the mistakes of others. I'll never live long enough to make 'em all myself :p.

[David Helm]

First, get the wood out of your garage and into the house. The wood actually needs a couple of weeks to aclimate to its final location. That means coming to equilibrium moisture level. The rosin paper should be laid between the subfloor and finish floor. It is both a minor vapor barrier and a means of avoiding squeakiness in the floor. It doesn't matter a lot which direction you nail it, the nails won't be going into the joists. I wouldn't use staples, the serrated flooring nails hold much better. When doing layout, make sure that there are at least four rows between but ends lining up together. Looks much better that way. Have fun. Back at the near beginning of my building career I spent a couple of years installing wood floors (it's a bit hard on the back) but it is a very satisfying experience.

[Shawn Pixley]

Curt

Good luck with your project. I've always done the rosin paper and run perpendicular to the joists (coincident with the right look for the room. I use cleats rather than staples.

The best advise I can offer is level and prep you floor really well. Like most things, this makes the installation go more smoothly. Second tip, lay-out. Figure it out for the look you want. Assume nothing is straight and square, because it likely isn't. Third, back nailing into closets and alcoves has tricks of its own. This can take the most time. Fourth, cutting in another room is good, your great prep job is fouled with sawdust when you cut in the same room. Two trusted tape measures make things go more smoothly. I always end up leaving a single tape in the wrong room. Last and most important- get the best knée pads you can find. You only have one set on knees.

Good luck.

[Thomas love]

Will the base boards allow you to add shoe molding ?
Personally I would remove the base boards and install the flooring a 1/2 to 3/4 " from the bottom plate of the wall studs, if the Sheetrock is down to the floor cut it away 3/4" from the sub floor.

Around the door ways you will need to under cut the jambs and casing, a cheap flush cutting pull saw from you know where and a piece of 3/4 scrap to guide you at the correct height should work fine. You could also rent a jamb saw depending on your skill level, I have seen many door jambs cut to high with jamb saws.

If your sub floor is 5/8" go perpendicular or diagonal. 3/4" with 16" on center joist spacing it should not matter. I also prefer a shoe mold as it is flexible and will conform to the floors irregularities better than the base. Some do not like the look of it and use a thin bead of caulk. I do not recommend the caulk as it can possibly restrict expansion and contraction on solid wood flooring and yes I have seen floors buckle up in the center of rooms.

Good luck Curt and remember what the others posted.
tom

[Jason Roehl]

If you have a full 3/4" subfloor (you should), then joists have no bearing on which way the floor is laid. It will generally look best if the boards are run parallel to the long dimension of the room. Ideally, under a wood floor, the subfloor would be run diagonal to the joists, but to me, that is a very large increase in effort for not much gain in quality. (It's meant to keep the subfloor seams from coinciding with flooring seams and telegraphing through).

I also prefer 15# roofing felt to rosin paper, and definitely use cleats appropriate for the nailer you use. Renting a nailer is not a bad option, but some people have also bought them new or used and then re-sold them for less of a difference than rental would have cost. Unless you've got huge arms, go with a pneumatic nailer. The manual nailers are much cheaper, but they are much more work.

[Van Huskey]

If you have a full 3/4" subfloor (you should), then joists have no bearing on which way the floor is laid. It will generally look best if the boards are run parallel to the long dimension of the room. Ideally, under a wood floor, the subfloor would be run diagonal to the joists, but to me, that is a very large increase in effort for not much gain in quality. (It's meant to keep the subfloor seams from coinciding with flooring seams and telegraphing through).

I also prefer 15# roofing felt to rosin paper, and definitely use cleats appropriate for the nailer you use. Renting a nailer is not a bad option, but some people have also bought them new or used and then re-sold them for less of a difference than rental would have cost. Unless you've got huge arms, go with a pneumatic nailer. The manual nailers are much cheaper, but they are much more work.

I had a post in mind BUT you already said everything exactly as I would.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Layout is really important. Consider what happens if/when you go around a corner/door/etc. If you go "around" a door, you may then have to change the direction you are laying the floor, which could require cutting a spline to fit two groves together.

As others said, nothing is square or parallel. Lay out on the floor exactly where the pieces will go. Consider if you will need to cut a tapered piece to fit against an out-of-square wall, where would that tapered piece be least visible?

Don't skimp on nails/cleats/staples. I did >1000 sqft of prefinished in my house, and there's a few places that now squeak because I don't think I used as many nails as I was supposed to.

As David Helm said, get it inside, open the boxes, and let it acclimate for several weeks. Again, in my house, there are a few gaps wider than I'd like to see that I suspect are because I didn't let the flooring adequately acclimate to the dry weather, here.

I think some shoe mouldings look tacky (if the baseboards are painted, for instance). If possible, pull the baseboard off and run the flooring underneath it.

When you get to the last few rows, your nailer will no longer fit between the flooring and the wall, so you'll need a 16ga nailer to face nail those last few pieces. This hurts so bad the first time :eek: , but just stand up, and you'll see that those holes are much less visible when you're not down on your knees ;)

[Curt Harms]

Porta-nail cleats seem to work very well in the 3-in-1 guns. I've only driven a few just to be sure they feed but they fit the magazine well and have fed okay so far. One source on a flooring forum recommended being very generous with air oil for jam free usage. I know the subfloor is plywood but it may be 5/8" rather than 3/4". I know there are a couple places where corners have lifted, they can be felt through the carpet. I think going perpendicular to the joists is probably the best idea.

We can install shoe mold but if we can get by without it I think it would look better. Cutting the sheetrock away is a nice idea. I have a Fein Multimaster which might finally earn its keep on this project.

We're doing 2 rooms, the long axis of which are perpendicular to one another. SWMBO is thinking run the flooring along the long axis of each room. This would involve one room's strips running parallel to the joists which might result in a wavy wood floor. Right now both rooms are carpeted which I'm sure doesn't show unevenness nearly like wood floors. We'll have to think about this.

[Bob Aquino]

Couple of points. Flooring should be laid in the same direction as the longest axis of the room. If you have two rooms that the axis is perpendicular, no biggie, your floor will just intersect the other at the doorway.

In larger rooms, it helps to lay the first course straight down the middle of the room, after you measure and snap a chalk line. Then you work toward that wall as normal. For the other side of the room, rip some thin ply like 1/4" as a substitute spline and glue that into the first course in the middle and then start laying the other half down so the tongues are pointed the other way toward the opposite wall. What this does is to even out the expansion that will occur in the floor.

When you pull up the carpeting have a good assessment of the current condition of the sub-floor. Check it for any squeaks and screw it down if necessary. If you can ID the joists, all that much the better. You could make pencil marks on the baseboards if necessary. When you get close to the wall, your last few courses will have to be face nailed since you wont have enough room to swing the hammer for the floor nailer. Having a 16 gauge finish nailer is a big help.

Finally, do make sure you have at least 3/4 ply under the flooring. Less than that is not good. More is better. When I did the rooms in my current house, there was particle board on top of 1/2" ply. They called it a "silent floor". I ripped out all that particle board since it won't hold nails at all and replaced it with an additional layer of plywood. Been ten years and the floor has very few squeaks to this day.

Other tricks to think about are using some flooring as a picture frame around things that jut out such as fireplace hearths. Looks much better than just dead ending the boards at the edge of the brickwork. People also integrate tiling into the floor if they can get it so the heights are the same. Neat little touches like that will make the floor stand out. I did one room in a herringbone pattern (talk about a lot of extra work) but it does make for a striking appearance. Good Luck.

[Charlie Gummer]

Hi Curt,

I've nearly finished ~1000 sf of artisan floors prefinished maple in the upper story of our split level. This being my first attempt I performed an exhaustive bit of research. A few key points that helped me:

- Subfloor prep is key: industry standard for flatness (coplanar) is 1/8" in 6 feet and 3/16" in 10 feet. Focus on flat, not level.

- 3/4" is minimum subfloor thickness. We had 3/4" particle board over the joists to which I glued and screwed 1/2" cdx ply to nail to per the standard.

- I used aquabar type b asphalt impregnated paper as the underlayment between the plywood and floor.

- the debate between cleats and staples is endless. I commonly read that staples hold better initially but cleats loosen less over time. I used 2" staples.

- I glue and nail finish nails through the tongue for the rows closest to the wall.

- per the standard the cross grain expansion gap is to be the thickness of the material. Undercutting drywall is a big help if you don't want to be stuck using shoe moulding like we will.

Hope this helps.

Charlie

[Tom Jones III]

From my experience putting in more than 1,000 sq ft upstairs is to focus on the prep work as other have suggested. Spend a lot of time on flatness, I did and I don't regret a minute of it and maybe I should have spent another 1/2 day on it.

Don't be afraid to lay another layer of plywood over the floor if it is necessary. My floor just barely met the minimums so I did not lay down another layer of ply. Since then we put a treadmill on the floor and now I wish that I had made a stronger sub floor.

[Jim Andrew]

I prefer diagonal flooring, as it seems to make your rooms seem bigger. Also crosses the joists, and my floors have been squeak free since laying oak flooring. Think about how you can start to lay the whole floor if possible without changing directions. Although you can change if you just cut a spline and put it in the groove, and then lay the other way. Personally, I would use wood glue and put some in the grooves as I laid the flooring. That way if your floor wants to shrink, it makes the whole floor shrink in one piece, instead of gapping between boards. Acclimation is a must, but certain dry times of year will shrink your flooring.

[Jason Roehl]

No offense, Jim, but gluing all the boards of a wood floor is a bad idea. The floor won't move as a whole, but rather will "panelize". Gluing all the boards together will create a tug-of-war between the holding power of the nails and the expansion/contraction of the floor. The contraction periods will be the worst. What will happen is every few boards, the nails will hold and the glue will fail, so there will be "panels" 3-5 boards wide--with large gaps between them that may show the damage from the glue (or wood) failure. There's a reason it's not industry procedure.

[Scott T Smith]

No offense, Jim, but gluing all the boards of a wood floor is a bad idea. The floor won't move as a whole, but rather will "panelize". Gluing all the boards together will create a tug-of-war between the holding power of the nails and the expansion/contraction of the floor. The contraction periods will be the worst. What will happen is every few boards, the nails will hold and the glue will fail, so there will be "panels" 3-5 boards wide--with large gaps between them that may show the damage from the glue (or wood) failure. There's a reason it's not industry procedure.


Jason, there is a lot more that I don't know about wood floors versus what I do know, but I can say this...

The oak floors in my current home were laid in 1990 (2-1/2" wide white oak), with glue applied between the boards and below the T&G. I removed most of them in 2004 when I installed heart pine floors throughout the house, but kept the oak in portions of the upstairs.

There are no separations, bulges, squeaks, etc from the oak floors, whatsoever. On the contrary, the heart pine floors (laid over 15lb felt paper) have seasonal contraction gaps in several places every winter.

Removing the old oak floors was an incredible pain in the tail too, because the glue that seeped out of the joints glued them to the subfloor.

I've also spoken with some custom flooring installers in the NE that glue down thin (5/16" - 3/8" thick) wide plank floors directly to the subfloors, and have for years. This is not a mainstream practice, but apparently as long as the combined strength in the cells of the flooring is less than the strength of the subfloor or adhesive, buckling and expansion is controlled.

I haven't tried the wide plank glue down personally yet, but intend to. As to the rest, I can personally attest to the strength and durability of the partially glued joints.

Hope that you don't mind my feedback; I really enjoy reading your posts.

Scott

[Mark Woodmark]

[QUOTE=Thomas love;1505630]Will the base boards allow you to add shoe molding ?
Personally I would remove the base boards and install the flooring a 1/2 to 3/4 " from the bottom plate of the wall studs, if the Sheetrock is down to the floor cut it away 3/4" from the sub floor.

Just curious, why cut the drywall back to get the floor tucked closer to the wall? I would just install new base board and base shoe. I too would use 15# felt paper as opposed to rosin. I feel it is easier to work with and eliminates squeaks better. As others have stated nailing the tongues is the way to go. I have not glued the floor to itself as others have mentioned. Seems like this would work though. Laminate floors are all installed this way. They either snap together or are glued to themselves. They are like a floating sheet on the subfloor that will expand and contract with the season. Definately do not nail and glue

[Thomas love]

Just curious, why cut the drywall back to get the floor tucked closer to the wall?


Hey Mark, to create more room for expansion and eliminate the need for shoe mould. If the Sheetrock is between the floor and framing then you need to standoff Ideally 3/4" off the s/rock, most standard base trim is 5/8 to 3/4" thick.

tom

[Shawn Pixley]

Some of us have dry wall that just dies into the floor. No base molding at all.

[Prashun Patel]

I did our sunroom a year or two back.

Here's my 2cents:

Use staples and an impact activated staple gun. The crowned staples are supposed to hold better than the cleats. I'd rent one. It might cost a hundred or two extra in the long run, but having the proper power is critical. You'll see that when you go to pull out yr first misfired fastener.

Start yr pattern in the middle of the room with the longest run. Use some jointed boards to establish the layout line; screw them down, then butt yr first course up to this and staple it down. Spline the grooved side, and then work out from both sides.

I did diagonal, and like it a lot; it's just a notch up visually, and not that much harder to do than straight across. The miters are all hidden under the shoe molding.

When working into corners or up against the wall, I decided to glue the last course or two to the tongue of the previous course. If you do it on the diagonal, you'll only have to do this in one small corner. Otherwise, it's impossible to get the nailer in there otherwise.

Buy extra planks and and mix up 3-4 boxes - or at least inspect them so that you minimize any color variation.

[Paul Steiner]

Here is what I have learned from putting hardwood flooring in my house, my mother-in-law's, house and several friend's homes.
1. Get a pneumatic crown stapler, a harbor frieght one is fine if you are not doing this professionally. It will probably be cheaper than renting one. You need the power air provides.
2. Floor prep. is everything.
3. The 2 or 3 days prior to removing the old floor or before wood is put down is a great time to paint your walls and ceiling.
4. Buy really good knee pads.
5. Buy mortin for your back.
6. Buy 2 to 3 extra boxes, you will find yourself looking for the right piece.
7. Keep your saw close, use a shopvac. At first I wanted to stay clean and cut outside. But you are wasting time if you walk more than 20 feet or up and down stairs.
8. If you are working alone, take your projected install time and double it.
Good luck, I really enjoyed doing my house once the wood started going down.