Motorized Router Lift

[Kevin Gagne]

Here (http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/powerlift.html)is a new product to add to your wish list. It looks very cool. I wonder what the price of it will be though.

[Van Huskey]

Here (http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/powerlift.html)is a new product to add to your wish list. It looks very cool. I wonder what the price of it will be though.

There is a thread here from a day or so ago talking about it. Intro price is a very resonable 369. You can pre-order next week.

[Kevin Gagne]

Sorry for the repost then. I didn't realize it was already being talked about.

[Howard Skillington]

I'm holding out for a fusion-powered router lift.

Pardon my sarcasm - I like my router table as much as the next guy, but have never regarded having to turn a little crank as an excessive amount of trouble.

[Van Huskey]

I'm holding out for a fusion-powered router lift.

Pardon my sarcasm - I like my router table as much as the next guy, but have never regarded having to turn a little crank as an excessive amount of trouble.


You are completely missing the major benefits of the lift, moving it under power is actually one of the secondary benefits.

[Peter Quinn]

You are completely missing the major benefits of the lift, moving it under power is actually one of the secondary benefits.

What exactly is the benefit? I'm scratching my head on this one. I fail completely to see the need to use a motor to lift a router that weights less than 30# and has less than 3" of total travel. On a wide belt, large shaper or planer I love the motorized lift features, but on a router? Most other machines with motorized lifts have a fine tune hand wheel somewhere in the mechanism to hit those last few thousands of adjustment, this one states there are no cranks or hand wheels anywhere as if that were a good thing? So I don't see this being a major step forward in accuracy versus my present lift which adjusts quite accurately.

Maybe it will come with a tee shirt that says "I spent over $1K and all I got was this silly router table". Lets see, $400 for the lift, $400 for the big PC router, $150 for a table, more for a stand....I'm thinking shaper at that price point.

[Van Huskey]

What exactly is the benefit? I'm scratching my head on this one. I fail completely to see the need to use a motor to lift a router that weights less than 30# and has less than 3" of total travel. On a wide belt, large shaper or planer I love the motorized lift features, but on a router? Most other machines with motorized lifts have a fine tune hand wheel somewhere in the mechanism to hit those last few thousands of adjustment, this one states there are no cranks or hand wheels anywhere as if that were a good thing? So I don't see this being a major step forward in accuracy versus my present lift which adjusts quite accurately.

.


There are tons of uses but I will start with the two that intrigue me.

1. ease and repeatablility of set up. There are people who own multiple routers and or shapers just to avoid the tedious setup for match fitting profiles, should be a breeze to reset profiles once you have it correct once. This can also be done with a DRO but a decent lift and DRO are about the same price.

2. this is the big one, try cutting any plunge function on a standard router table without three hands... a completely new capability for a router table

There are a ton more uses for a motorized/indexed lift it just requires that one think of this as a new tool as opposed to a simple convenience addition.


"Maybe it will come with a tee shirt that says "I spent over $1K and all I got was this silly router table". Lets see, $400 for the lift, $400 for the big PC router, $150 for a table, more for a stand....I'm thinking shaper at that price point"

I hear statements like this all the time and it would make excellent sense IF the shaper was a replacement for a router table, but it is not (except for the rare one with a high speed router spindle). There is an area of overlap between a router in a table and a shaper but the overlap is actually rather small, they are actually closer to apples and oranges than big apples and small apples.

[Bob Wingard]

You are completely missing the major benefits of the lift, moving it under power is actually one of the secondary benefits.

That would depend on your application/use of the lift. For me (DEEP loose tenon joinery) raising the router under power is the MAIN consideration.

[Mike Henderson]

That would depend on your application/use of the lift. For me (DEEP loose tenon joinery) raising the router under power is the MAIN consideration.
What this sounds like is using the router as a slot mortiser - but not as easy to use as a slot mortiser because you can't see the cut. If the router was mounted horizontally and you used a moving table, AND you could control the plunge with your foot, I can see using it for mortises. With that setup, you could see where you're plunging (because it's so much easier when you can see, instead of using stop blocks, or marks on the outside of the wood somehow), you can control the amount of plunge, and with the sliding table you can cut the mortise width.

While not cheap, I've found that I can use a Domino to make most of the mortises I need (and for real tenons, not loose tenons). For those I can't make with the Domino, I do by hand.

Mike

[Ed Labadie]

Hopefully it will be better quality than their router bits....

Ed

[Van Huskey]

Hopefully it will be better quality than their router bits....

Ed

Actually the Katana bits are quite good, that said I will still buy Whiteside first. Their Asian bits are well Asian bits, even though cheap they aren't worth the price if you care about your work.

In the end the point of your post is the key. The price has me concerned, it is maybe too cheap only 40 to 70 dollars more than the best non-motorized lifts which gives me pause. I will be waiting for more feedback before I jump.

[Peter Quinn]

1. ease and repeatability of set up. There are people who own multiple routers and or shapers just to avoid the tedious setup for match fitting profiles, should be a breeze to reset profiles once you have it correct once. This can also be done with a DRO but a decent lift and DRO are about the same price.

2. this is the big one, try cutting any plunge function on a standard router table without three hands... a completely new capability for a router table



Maybe I'm a lunk head, but I don't see that repeatability feature at all. In the case of a shaper with a digital read out you drop the same cutter, possibly on the same dedicated spindle, that lands on said spindle at the same height every time and can thus be raised via digital mechanism to a consistent set up height every time within a few thousands. Simple and awesome.

But with a router bit you should NEVER bottom the cutter out in the collet, and that effects your height setting, so you have to sort of guess at your exact depth of bit shank versus collet bottom, and you cannot have a perfectly repeatable set up. A basic set of set up blocks and $5 calipers will save you roughly $400. It seems if you wanted to buy a separate router for each bit you could leave the cutters in place in the collet and have that repeatability, but how else would you get it exactly with this device?

On point number two, I guess you are saying this can function as a poor mans pin router? Either a decent over arm or under table pin router like an Onsrud will cost far more than this, so if it will replace one of those, thats great. But will it? An real pin router plunges very quickly to a very accurate depth and allows you to get moving and not burn the start of a cut or end of a cut. Will this actually give that functionality? Luckily a plunge router also actually makes a very good plunge router as well, and my best one costs less than that lift. I do have to use it above the table off course. I'm trying to imagine a real situation where I must use a router table to plunge a cut?

On the shaper versus router table argument, I'd argue that most of what most guys do on a router table is in fact shaping work best done on a shaper but more cheaply done on a router, and as long as it stays done more cheaply it makes sense to use the router table. There are certainly some things that can't be done with a shaper, but most of these things DON"T require a table mounted router either. Most of the things I do with a router are easier freehand or above table with a quick jig than on a table with some Rube Goldberg set up.

[Will Overton]

I'm holding out for a fusion-powered router lift.

Pardon my sarcasm - I like my router table as much as the next guy, but have never regarded having to turn a little crank as an excessive amount of trouble.

I'll bet I'm not alone in thinking that I used to feel that way about car windows. :D

[John Nixon]

What this sounds like is using the router as a slot mortiser - but not as easy to use as a slot mortiser because you can't see the cut.
Mike

Hi Mike,

It's definitely a shift in mindset to turn the slot mortising upside down, but I've found it works quite well.

Take a look at the third video in my pool table series which showcases the mortising operation using my motorized router lift.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B58-k3ntFSY

John

[Mike Henderson]

Hi Mike,

It's definitely a shift in mindset to turn the slot mortising upside down, but I've found it works quite well.

Take a look at the third video in my pool table series which showcases the mortising operation using my motorized router lift.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B58-k3ntFSY

John
There's no doubt that you can use a router to do mortises. People have been "dropping" their wood on a fixed router (in a table) for a long time. Being able to raise the bit into a piece of wood is a lot safer.

But compared to a slot mortiser, doing mortises on a router table is time consuming. You have to set up your cut accurately with stop blocks (or something). And usually you have to do at least one trial cut in scrap to make sure everything is set up correctly. On a slot mortiser I mark where I want my mortise. If I'm doing a 3/8" mortise in 3/4" material, I'll usually mark out one mortise, top and bottom, so I can set up the position of the bit. I move the bit to the wood and see how it fits between the lines. Then I take a small plunge to make sure it's cutting accurately between the lines.

I also lay out lines for the width of the mortise and when making the cuts, I just cut to those lines. If I'm doing multiple mortises in one piece, or if all my pieces are 3/4" I never have to check the centering of the cut again. All I have to do is mark the width and cut to that.

I can do all that because I can see the cut. When you use a router table, you lose that visibility and have to do a lot more setup for each mortise.

Now, a slot mortiser is an expensive machine and it takes room in the shop. What I've done is go to a Domino and use the 8 or 10mm cutter to cut the mortises. I can cut 28mm deep, and I can make the mortise as wide as I want because I can make multiple cuts side by side. I don't usually use loose tenon joinery - I use traditional tenons - but I can use loose tenon if I want to.

The Domino can't do everything a slot mortiser can do, but then, a slot mortiser can't do everything the Domino can do. And the Domino takes a lot less room and it portable.

Mike

[Van Huskey]

Maybe I'm a lunk head, but I don't see that repeatability feature at all. In the case of a shaper with a digital read out you drop the same cutter, possibly on the same dedicated spindle, that lands on said spindle at the same height every time and can thus be raised via digital mechanism to a consistent set up height every time within a few thousands. Simple and awesome.

But with a router bit you should NEVER bottom the cutter out in the collet, and that effects your height setting, so you have to sort of guess at your exact depth of bit shank versus collet bottom, and you cannot have a perfectly repeatable set up. A basic set of set up blocks and $5 calipers will save you roughly $400. It seems if you wanted to buy a separate router for each bit you could leave the cutters in place in the collet and have that repeatability, but how else would you get it exactly with this device?

On point number two, I guess you are saying this can function as a poor mans pin router? Either a decent over arm or under table pin router like an Onsrud will cost far more than this, so if it will replace one of those, thats great. But will it? An real pin router plunges very quickly to a very accurate depth and allows you to get moving and not burn the start of a cut or end of a cut. Will this actually give that functionality? Luckily a plunge router also actually makes a very good plunge router as well, and my best one costs less than that lift. I do have to use it above the table off course. I'm trying to imagine a real situation where I must use a router table to plunge a cut?

On the shaper versus router table argument, I'd argue that most of what most guys do on a router table is in fact shaping work best done on a shaper but more cheaply done on a router, and as long as it stays done more cheaply it makes sense to use the router table. There are certainly some things that can't be done with a shaper, but most of these things DON"T require a table mounted router either. Most of the things I do with a router are easier freehand or above table with a quick jig than on a table with some Rube Goldberg set up.

Repeatability would be a PITA if the lift in question did not have a zero function. The setup blocks and calipers would only save you money if you weren't looking to buy a lift, however we are yet to see if THIS lift can stand up to the 300-350 high end manual lifts currently available, if it can it will be just as cheap as a high end lift and a set of quality blocks and calipers.

Wasn't thinking of it as a pin router just something that could do stepped or stopped cuts easily.

I don't agree that most of what is done on a router table is shaper work but like I said they are apples and oranges if you try to get one to do all the tasks of the other you will be disapointed.

Further, think this is far from a Rube Golderg setup, in fact given what it does it is rather elegant. From a mechanical point of view it is more simple than many of the high end router tables with fine and course adjustment.

In the end this is not a product for everyone and depending on the quality/ruggedness of the lift it may not be for me either. I don't find it hard to think of a lot of doors it opens that are closed at present on the router table, but nothing this will do can't be done another way, BUT if it does those at a premium of a few dollars over a Woodpecker PRL and Wixey DRO it may well be worth the cost of admission for me and possibly others. Me, I don't see the advantage of an iPhone over my current semi-basic phone and I say this with my wife's old iPhone sitting in a drawer just waiting for my SIM card, others can't seem to get through the day without theirs.

[Will Blick]

This product is long over due, hard to imagine as hungry as all the router dealers are for sales in such a competitive environment, a product like this was not introduced long ago. Its a logical progression to router tables.

I too would be quite impressed if the build is good at the mentioned price point. My guess is, they picked a price point they felt it would sell at, and worked from there. Of course, like all new products, you have to hope it will be reliable and consistent... kudos to the enthusiastic young inventor, we need more people like him in America!

Shapers IMO begin to shine when you are hoggin out more wood, need a taller profile of a cut and production capacities with the addition of power feeders. Router tables have lots of precision accessories to make the cut accurate, so they excel at edge work and joinery...

[Van Huskey]

http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/ec100908.html


More info an pre-order.

This confirmed my fears, it does not fit the big production router motors. It is designed for the mid-range routers. The next lift I need is for a 7518 so I will probably just get the PRL 2. Maybe the next time I am in the market for a mid sized lift...

[Jerome Hanby]

http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/ec100908.html


More info an pre-order.

This confirmed my fears, it does not fit the big production router motors. It is designed for the mid-range routers. The next lift I need is for a 7518 so I will probably just get the PRL 2. Maybe the next time I am in the market for a mid sized lift...

Wow, that's a let down. I've already got the big PC router motor for my next router table project. Guess I'm back to building my own...

[Peter Quinn]

Si in my mind this link is the ultimate router table. Throw a fence on a pin router, retract the pin, you have a plunging table router. You also have a massive bill. I'm wondering how close to this performance the MLCS thing will come. I took a close look at their video a few times and have been thinking about the thing, not planning to get one, just a mental tool junky exercise. What can it allow me to do that I cannot do now?

http://www.cronsrud.com/video/video_inverted_web.html