There's more than weeds growing in the lawn

[Rob Cunningham]

I found these little guys in the front yard yesterday afternoon. Guess I better watch where I drive the lawn tractor :eek:

[Dan Hintz]

Obviously quite tame and unafraid of humans... surprising. Where's the mother? If they were in my yard I'd feed them whenever possible to make 'em really friendly. I have a family that lives under the front porch (or at least visits there a lot), though a bit more skittish... I can get within about 10-12'. I throw them some lettuce or carrots from time to time, and in return they give me some good photo ops.

[Eric DeSilva]

I had a big fat one in my backyard. In this case "fat" because the little bugger ate all my tomatoes.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

Mine was named Stew.

[David Weaver]

Hasenpfeffer!

[Bryan Rocker]

I had a foolish couple build a next right next to the air conditioner in a small, very small valley, my lab found it.....I had to redirect her to keep her from havin a snack......

[Bob Rufener]

We used to have a number of rabbits around our house and they especially enjoyed the fruits of my labor in the garden until I put up a fence. Lately, we have been seeing red fox around the house and no rabbits. I think there is a connection...

[John alder]

We used to have more in past years in our back yard I think a red tail hawk is to blame. John

[Heather Thompson]

When I was little we had an above ground pool in the back yard, a mother bunnie made her nest by the first post. I would go out and say good morning to the nest each day, one morning when I came out the nieghbors cat was killing the last baby. :eek: I ran into my dads shop and got a 2x4 with nails in one end, the cat got over the chain link fence before I could get her. About a month later I was sitting at my desk and heard the cat in the neighbors yard, took out my Sheridan air rifle and opened the window, said meeeoow and the kitty dropped on the spot. Please do not get me wrong, I love animals, but if you kill something you eat it and respect it. There is a cat that lives down the street, he is named the Hunter by me, when he takes something down he leaves the bones on the side of my house, kind of like he knows how I feel.


Heather

[Brian Ashton]

When I was little we had an above ground pool in the back yard, a mother bunnie made her nest by the first post. I would go out and say good morning to the nest each day, one morning when I came out the nieghbors cat was killing the last baby. :eek: I ran into my dads shop and got a 2x4 with nails in one end, the cat got over the chain link fence before I could get her. About a month later I was sitting at my desk and heard the cat in the neighbors yard, took out my Sheridan air rifle and opened the window, said meeeoow and the kitty dropped on the spot. Please do not get me wrong, I love animals, but if you kill something you eat it and respect it. There is a cat that lives down the street, he is named the Hunter by me, when he takes something down he leaves the bones on the side of my house, kind of like he knows how I feel.


Heather


Not gettng you wrong in anyway... So you ate the cat then or just gave it respect, which one. Lets just say credibility is a bit lacking here. :mad:

[John Coloccia]

About a month later I was sitting at my desk and heard the cat in the neighbors yard, took out my Sheridan air rifle and opened the window, said meeeoow and the kitty dropped on the spot. Please do not get me wrong, I love animals, but if you kill something you eat it and respect it.

How'd the cat taste?

[Heather Thompson]

Not gettng you wrong in anyway... So you ate the cat then or just gave it respect, which one. Lets just say credibility is a bit lacking here. :mad:

Brian,

The neighbors cat was just killing the baby bunnies, they were all over the back yard, not being eaten. I hunt rabbit and squirrel every year, eat them all, also use the squirrel tails for fishing jigs. When I fish if I catch a trophy it gets back in the water right after the picture if there is a camera at hand. The cat that I shot was given respect, no I did not eat it but it grew some great tomatoes.

Heather

[John Coloccia]

I'd have trouble eating too with a young Heather trying to bludgeon me with a 2X4. LOL :p

[Dan Hintz]

brian,

the neighbors cat was just killing the baby bunnies, they were all over the back yard, not being eaten. I hunt rabbit and squirrel every year, eat them all, also use the squirrel tails for fishing jigs. When i fish if i catch a trophy it gets back in the water right after the picture if there is a camera at hand. The cat that i shot was given respect, no i did not eat it but it grew some great tomatoes.

Heather
lol :D :D :D

[Jim Becker]

Obviously quite tame and unafraid of humans... surprising.

When they are that young, they may not have learned to fear us yet. A few years ago, we had some groundhog pups that were the same way...ate out of our hands on the deck. (yes, we were careful...)

Rob, they are very cute little critters!

[Brian Ashton]

Brian,

The neighbors cat was just killing the baby bunnies, they were all over the back yard, not being eaten. I hunt rabbit and squirrel every year, eat them all, also use the squirrel tails for fishing jigs. When I fish if I catch a trophy it gets back in the water right after the picture if there is a camera at hand. The cat that I shot was given respect, no I did not eat it but it grew some great tomatoes.

Heather

I can only guess that you don't understand what you've said - or don't care... You were so disgusted in what the cat was doing it motivated you enough to go and needlessly kill it. YOU DID THE VERY THING YOU SUPPOSEDLY WERE REVILED BY. And by your last post it's all a joke to you. You have very twisted idea of respect. Have you ever heard the saying. As the dragon hunter you have to be careful not to become the dragon. Can't say anymore.

Don't even get me started about catch and release (deleted). Lets just say, can I come over and throw a piece of meat on a hook to your dog and drag it around by its face simply for my enjoyment. Honestly I promise to be kind and release it after - unharmed...

[Bill Cunningham]

Way back when my middle daughter had her 11th birthday party on our back deck, our Cat dragged a rabbit under the deck, and commenced to eating it while it screamed. Now, imagine a dozen 10,11,and 12 years old girls listening to this and reacting like little girls watching a bunny being eaten.. Not a particularly fun afternoon until I got the rabbit away from the cat (the Cat weighed 18 lbs, and was reluctant to give it up) When I got it away, it was dead, so I chased the cat out, and told them the rabbit got away. I think old Molson went back and finished eating it after the party.. We have been plagued by raccoons lately, so i went out and bought a cage type trap, set it up on the porch, and bingo.... I got my first Skunk:eek::eek: Dragged the cage to the back of the yard, flipped it over so the door would fall flat, and let it out.. Big stink, but no spray. I had to change my clothes anyway, it was kinda thick in the air.. I would hope to never hit one with a lawnmower :D

[Dan Hintz]

Bill,

I think that one was even better than Heather's :D

[George Sanders]

A neighbor once left a baby rabbit in a box on my doorstep. I don't know why he thought I could take care of it or why I would. Anyway it died that day; probably stressed out from captivity. When the neighbor asked a friend of mine who was visiting at the time how the rabbit was doing he said: "George said he'll take all them little rabbits you can find. He said it didn't make much gravy but it was real tender!" :D My neighbor went to his grave thinking I ate that baby rabbit! :eek:

[Harold Burrell]

I can only guess that you don't understand what you've said - or don't care... You were so disgusted in what the cat was doing it motivated you enough to go and needlessly kill it. YOU DID THE VERY THING YOU SUPPOSEDLY WERE REVILED BY. And by your last post it's all a joke to you. You have very twisted idea of respect. Have you ever heard the saying. As the dragon hunter you have to be careful not to become the dragon. Can't say anymore.

Don't even get me started about catch and release (deleted). Lets just say, can I come over and throw a piece of meat on a hook to your dog and drag it around by its face simply for my enjoyment. Honestly I promise to be kind and release it after - unharmed...

Dude...seriously...

[Heather Thompson]

Don't even get me started about catch and release deleted. Lets just say, can I come over and throw a piece of meat on a hook to your dog and drag it around by its face simply for my enjoyment. Honestly I promise to be kind and release it after - unharmed...[/QUOTE]

Brian,

I fish for meat, my favorite is walleye at about 2 1/2 lbs, if I happen to catch an 8 lb fish it is a thrill but it is always released. I am also a member of Trout Unlimited, there are many areas that are posted "Catch and Release", only non barbed hooks are permitted.

Folks that hunt and fish legally are stewards to the environmemt, the fees for licenses and memberships that we pay help to restore the natural system. Trout Unlimited has restored the Driftless area in Wisconsin to better than it was many years ago, considered one of the top 100 trout fishing areas in the US at this time.

If you eat beef, pork, poultry or fish I highly recommend that you watch a video called "Food, Inc", even if you are only in the produce section of your local store it will be an eye opener.

To make one thing clear, when the cat killed the baby bunnies I marched down to the owners house and explained what happened, advised that if I saw it in our yard again I would shoot it. After I shot the cat and dug it into the garden I went back to the neighbors and told them to not expect the kitty to come home. They were not happy but they did understand and accepted what I did, Frank, their son was still a good friend of mine.

Heather

[Dan Hintz]

To make one thing clear, when the cat killed the baby bunnies I marched down to the owners house and explained what happened, advised that if I saw it in our yard again I would shoot it. After I shot the cat and dug it into the garden I went back to the neighbors and told them to not expect the kitty to come home. They were not happy but they did understand and accepted what I did, Frank, their son was still a good friend of mine.
There are a few furry creatures in the area that do not appear to have caring owners (I call them "handlers" as they basically feed the animal and then let it outside for the rest of the time). They looove to leave claw marks on warm hoods. Do you accept bounties? :D

[Harold Burrell]

To make one thing clear, when the cat killed the baby bunnies I marched down to the owners house and explained what happened, advised that if I saw it in our yard again I would shoot it. After I shot the cat and dug it into the garden I went back to the neighbors and told them to not expect the kitty to come home. They were not happy but they did understand and accepted what I did, Frank, their son was still a good friend of mine.

Heather

Heather...if I were a girl...I would want to be you. :D

[Dan Hintz]

Harold,

You've got it all wrong... just marry someone like her. You can gloat to your friends :D

[Brian Ashton]

Dude...seriously...

I don't infuse emotion in the things I write, it's for the most part misunderstood in most circumstances. I leave it to the reader to interpret it anyway they choose. I can assure you though I was quite calm when I wrote that. Everything I said was rational and deliberate. The only place where anyone is wound up is in your head not mine, as that was the interpretation you attached to the post. So I'll give the pill back and say maybe you need it more than I.

Maybe you should try two if you're really feeling uptight.

[Brian Ashton]

Don't even get me started about catch and release. Lets just say, can I come over and throw a piece of meat on a hook to your dog and drag it around by its face simply for my enjoyment. Honestly I promise to be kind and release it after - unharmed...

Brian,

I fish for meat, my favorite is walleye at about 2 1/2 lbs, if I happen to catch an 8 lb fish it is a thrill but it is always released. I am also a member of Trout Unlimited, there are many areas that are posted "Catch and Release", only non barbed hooks are permitted.

Folks that hunt and fish legally are stewards to the environmemt, the fees for licenses and memberships that we pay help to restore the natural system. Trout Unlimited has restored the Driftless area in Wisconsin to better than it was many years ago, considered one of the top 100 trout fishing areas in the US at this time.

If you eat beef, pork, poultry or fish I highly recommend that you watch a video called "Food, Inc", even if you are only in the produce section of your local store it will be an eye opener.

To make one thing clear, when the cat killed the baby bunnies I marched down to the owners house and explained what happened, advised that if I saw it in our yard again I would shoot it. After I shot the cat and dug it into the garden I went back to the neighbors and told them to not expect the kitty to come home. They were not happy but they did understand and accepted what I did, Frank, their son was still a good friend of mine.

Heather[/QUOTE]

My point was extremely clear. You became what you "apparently" detest. Would you have killed your dog if it was the one killing the bunnies? Be honest! Ethics and or morals by convenience...

As for hunting and fishing - no one in any developed country needs to do it. They simply like the thrill of the hunt and killing something in the end nothing more. There are far too many alternatives to store bought animal products to justify that excuse. Again morals by convenience.

[Harold Burrell]

I don't infuse emotion in the things I write, it's for the most part misunderstood in most circumstances. I leave it to the reader to interpret it anyway they choose. I can assure you though I was quite calm when I wrote that. Everything I said was rational and deliberate. The only place where anyone is wound up is in your head not mine, as that was the interpretation you attached to the post. So I'll give the pill back and say maybe you need it more than I.

Maybe you should try two if you're really feeling uptight.

Oh, well...OK...I'll take the pill back. I live on those things.

Man, I wish I could be more like you. Calm, cool, collected...

I get stressed too easily, it seems.

Funny though...one thing that doesn't seem to bother me is somebody shooting a cat.

Now, don't get me wrong. I love cats. They taste like chicken

[Harold Burrell]

As for hunting and fishing - no one in any developed country needs to do it. They simply like the thrill of the hunt and killing something in the end nothing more. There are far too many alternatives to store bought animal products to justify that excuse. Again morals by convenience.

You do realize that "store bought animal products" come from animals that did not die on their own, right? :rolleyes:

[Dan Hintz]

You do realize that "store bought animal products" come from animals that did not die on their own, right? :rolleyes:
Okay, now you've gone too far. You're ruining my rainbows and unicorns view of the world, Harold. All of this time I thought there were huge "retirement" fields of cows, pigs, etc. surrounded by golf courses, Denny's restaurants, and bingo parlors. When an animal finally kicked the bucket, someone would whisk it away to the slicing & dicing facility for its final rest.

Next you'll tell me the Tooth Fairy is a figment of my imagination or Santa Claus is just an out-of-work plumber in a suit owned by JC Penney's...

[Scott Shepherd]

As for hunting and fishing - no one in any developed country needs to do it. They simply like the thrill of the hunt and killing something in the end nothing more.

Having worked in some very poor areas of a couple of states, I can say without question that there are people that need to hunt and fish to live. I can also assure you these people get no pleasure out of killing an animal, they do it to survive and keep their families fed. Having spent time on a farm when I was a kid, with a very dirt poor grandparent, I can tell you he got no pleasure from living like that.

Not everyone lives in the city or has a walmart within miles, or has the ability to get a good education or a good job.

[Heather Thompson]

As for hunting and fishing - no one in any developed country needs to do it. They simply like the thrill of the hunt and killing something in the end nothing more. There are far too many alternatives to store bought animal products to justify that excuse. Again morals by convenience.[/QUOTE]

Brian,

"Morals by convenience", I really do suggest that you take a good look at the industrial production of beef, pork, poultry, fish and produce that supply your store bought products. I invited you to view "Food, Inc." but I guess you only respond to what is convenient to your viewpoint.

I live in the western suburbs of Chicago, the forest preserve close their property every year to cull the over population of deer, yes they shoot them and donate the meat to local food banks so the poor people that live in a developed country can eat.

I will never eat Purdue/Tyson chicken, Smithfield products or CAFO raised beef, look at where your store bought products come from and how it is produced!

I have always given respect to anything that I eat, from elk,deer,turkey, etc to produce, I am proud to be a person that can take care of herself and her family. The 93 year old woman that lives down the street loves that I bring her fresh rabbit and bushy tail in the fall.

If you are the kind of person that shops at Wall*art to save money, please PM Me, I will be happy to chat about this and other topics.

This has been a very civil thread and I think that is a good thing, it looks like this would be better taken offline. Please PM me if you would like to chat further.

Heather

PS Any public conversation is welcome.

[Rob Cunningham]

Wow, I was just posting the picture because I thought they were cute, I didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest :eek:

[Dan Hintz]

I will never eat Perdue/Tyson chicken...
Fixed that spellin' for ya :)

I received my Master's degree from Purdue University. The local Publix supermarket bakery provided the cake for my "leaving home" party, and mom asked them to put a little sign on it saying "This way to Purdue -->". Of course, being a supermarket they spelled it like the chicken company. So now it's an inside joke in the family that I went to Chicken U. :D

[Harold Burrell]

Fixed that spellin' for ya :)

I received my Master's degree from Purdue University. The local Publix supermarket bakery provided the cake for my "leaving home" party, and mom asked them to put a little sign on it saying "This way to Purdue -->". Of course, being a supermarket they spelled it like the chicken company. So now it's an inside joke in the family that I went to Chicken U. :D

I used to be a Correctional Officer in IN. I met a lot of chickens from Purdue.

:p

[Bill Cunningham]

Darn!!! Now I'm up to 2 squirrels and 3 skunks.. Darn good job they don't spray when their trapped in a cage.. :eek:
Anyone know how to keep skunks 'out' of a trap? I left the last one in for a full day figuring that by the time I released it, it would never want to enter a box like that again.. I know if you stuff a cat in a box, yer gonna lose a lot of skin trying to do it again!:D They, seem to learn. I hope skunks do too..

[Rod Sheridan]

They were cute, thanks for posting the photo..........Regards, Rod.

[Brian Ashton]

As for hunting and fishing - no one in any developed country needs to do it. They simply like the thrill of the hunt and killing something in the end nothing more. There are far too many alternatives to store bought animal products to justify that excuse. Again morals by convenience.

Brian,

"Morals by convenience", I really do suggest that you take a good look at the industrial production of beef, pork, poultry, fish and produce that supply your store bought products. I invited you to view "Food, Inc." but I guess you only respond to what is convenient to your viewpoint.

I live in the western suburbs of Chicago, the forest preserve close their property every year to cull the over population of deer, yes they shoot them and donate the meat to local food banks so the poor people that live in a developed country can eat.

I will never eat Purdue/Tyson chicken, Smithfield products or CAFO raised beef, look at where your store bought products come from and how it is produced!

I have always given respect to anything that I eat, from elk,deer,turkey, etc to produce, I am proud to be a person that can take care of herself and her family. The 93 year old woman that lives down the street loves that I bring her fresh rabbit and bushy tail in the fall.

If you are the kind of person that shops at Wall*art to save money, please PM Me, I will be happy to chat about this and other topics.

This has been a very civil thread and I think that is a good thing, it looks like this would be better taken offline. Please PM me if you would like to chat further.

Heather

PS Any public conversation is welcome.[/QUOTE]

I don't need to see the movie, I am far more aware of what goes on in the food industry than most. I didn't need to answer also because what's in food is completely irrelevant to the hunting and fishing position unless you plan to forage in the forest for the other 85 to 90% of your diet which is made up of foods manipulated and soaked in pesticides and herbicides by the food industry. So any health benefits derived from wild caught meat is completely lost. The taste is a weak argument also (you haven't mentioned that one but I thought I'd preempt you). Not many that eat meet that isn't in some way had it's taste altered, unless all you do is poach it in water and add nothing else including butter.

But to answer: my red meat comes from a small farm 2 hours south of me. I buy a half a cow at a time and it lasts about a year. It's raised in the traditional farming way - no feed lots, steroids... And I save about 30% in cost. My eggs, fruits and veggies come from the weekend markets. The eggs are free range from a hobby farm. I won't buy pork, chicken, or fish cause I can't control where or how they're raised. Can't do much about milk because pasteurising laws. I wouldn't eat rotten ronnies even if it were free...

I see you're not to keen to answer my questions...

Morals by convenience... Would you kill your pet for attacking and killing the rabbits. Would you drag your pet around by it's face for your enjoyment... Another question: Are you satisfied that between 10 and 15% of the fish you catch will die regardless of how "gentle" you are when you release them. If hunters were experiencing such ratios in that they left 10 to 15% of their kill to rot in the bush there would be an incredible outcry. So if it weren't morals by convenience you'd apply a consistent moral standard across the entire range. Especially when you say you respect them... In other words you wouldn't be dragging the fish around by its face for your enjoyment if you weren't prepared to do the same to you pet.

What I saw from your actions of killing the cat was a complete waste of a life. Unless you plan to eradicate every cat within 200 miles you've done absolutely nothing but perpetuate cruelty and satisfy your your need for "revenge". Even if you could wipe them all out you've still failed to do anything of lasting value because they will just be replaced by others... And the cycle of cruelty continues. And what's the worst, the young see these sorts of actions from adults and adopt it. And so the cycle continues... Does that mean you should then do nothing, of course not. It means that the answer isn't in acting like it's the wild west and pulling out the gun and getting revenge. There needs to be answers that are permanent and humane.

Humans are suppose to be superior with the ability to rationalise - to over rule instinct and reaction that governs most other animals...

[Brian Ashton]

Having worked in some very poor areas of a couple of states, I can say without question that there are people that need to hunt and fish to live. I can also assure you these people get no pleasure out of killing an animal, they do it to survive and keep their families fed. Having spent time on a farm when I was a kid, with a very dirt poor grandparent, I can tell you he got no pleasure from living like that.

Not everyone lives in the city or has a walmart within miles, or has the ability to get a good education or a good job.

There are always exceptions. Apparently there are now exceptions to one of the most fundamental law of physics, the fine structure constant... where will it all end.

I concede that there are those that do need to hunt. As you said most don't get a thrill out of it. But lets face it the vast majority aren't in that position. What's more the effort and resources spent by those in the city to hunt far out weight what they may kill in the bush.

These forums have to be kept to generalities, to get specific would take an entire book.

[Brian Ashton]

You do realize that "store bought animal products" come from animals that did not die on their own, right? :rolleyes:

Pretty much the only way to respond in to say: nothing like stating the obvious... :rolleyes:

[Scott Shepherd]

I concede that there are those that do need to hunt. As you said most don't get a thrill out of it. But lets face it the vast majority aren't in that position. What's more the effort and resources spent by those in the city to hunt far out weight what they may kill in the bush.

These forums have to be kept to generalities, to get specific would take an entire book.

I was only responding to your comments which said the following :


As for hunting and fishing - no one in any developed country needs to do it. They simply like the thrill of the hunt and killing something in the end nothing more.

You said "no one in any developed country needs to do it", then you said in the above post "I concede that there are those that do need to hunt".

My only issue was with you saying no one needed to, when there are people that live dirt poor that do need to in order to feed their families.

[Dan Hintz]

I respect my food... I respect the way it tastes, the way it sizzles on the grill, and I especially respect the way BORGs wrap the tastiest portions in Saran Wrap in convenient take-home sizes.

I'm at the top of the food chain, so I get to pick and choose what I want to eat of the lower lifeforms, and I don't much concern myself with what's involved in getting it to my dinner table. Just like I'm content with someone else picking up my garbage every week and disposing of it in an appropriate manner, I'm content with letting someone else bag and tag my food for easier consumption on my part.

[Brian Ashton]

I was only responding to your comments which said the following :



You said "no one in any developed country needs to do it", then you said in the above post "I concede that there are those that do need to hunt".

My only issue was with you saying no one needed to, when there are people that live dirt poor that do need to in order to feed their families.

You're arguing semantics. I suspect it's because you don't like my stance and not because you have anything of value to add, nothing more... My answer was more than adequate...

[David Weaver]

Brian,

Humans are suppose to be superior with the ability to rationalise - to over rule instinct and reaction that governs most other animals...

Sometimes that seems to go wrong and people can't enjoy anything - life is 100% analysis. Said folks spend all of their time worried about trying to be "right" half the time and the other half of the time, try to prove to everyone else about same.

[David Weaver]

I respect my food... I respect the way it tastes, the way it sizzles on the grill.

I enjoy mine. Sometimes I don't even respect it, I just make sure to enjoy it :)

[Chris Kennedy]

When I was little we had an above ground pool in the back yard, a mother bunnie made her nest by the first post. I would go out and say good morning to the nest each day, one morning when I came out the nieghbors cat was killing the last baby. :eek: I ran into my dads shop and got a 2x4 with nails in one end, the cat got over the chain link fence before I could get her. About a month later I was sitting at my desk and heard the cat in the neighbors yard, took out my Sheridan air rifle and opened the window, said meeeoow and the kitty dropped on the spot. Please do not get me wrong, I love animals, but if you kill something you eat it and respect it. There is a cat that lives down the street, he is named the Hunter by me, when he takes something down he leaves the bones on the side of my house, kind of like he knows how I feel.


Heather


lol :D :D :D


There are a few furry creatures in the area that do not appear to have caring owners (I call them "handlers" as they basically feed the animal and then let it outside for the rest of the time). They looove to leave claw marks on warm hoods. Do you accept bounties? :D

I haven't looked at this thread for the last couple of days, simply assuming the new posts were along the lines of "Awww . . . . they're cute.''

What I have now seen is truly appalling.

If you love to hunt -- great. If you enjoy the thrill of stalking, chasing -- whatever floats your boat. I assume that the beast doesn't go to waste in the case of a hunt, and I don't have a problem with catch and release. If you enjoy the meat you shoot/catch -- great. If you use it to feed your family -- all the more power to you. I have no problem with any of this.

But this is not about hunting.

A cat was killing baby bunnies. Yes, it is sad, and probably somewhat horrific to watch. But the cat is an animal, that while domesticated, still has hunting instincts. Plenty of house cats will "play" with rodents and are taught by their mothers to do so. Cats are not vegetarians -- I don't think they are even omnivores. Cats will turn feral and hunt. This cat was doing what cats do.

I can understand being appalled by what it was doing, and possibly being angry enough to chase after it with a 2 by 4 with nails in the heat of the moment. Killing it a month later is not in the heat of the moment.

Planning to kill it, announcing the intention to do so, and doing so is a clear sign of premeditation. Furthermore, there is a clear indication of taking pride in the kill, and humor that the corpse went into growing tomatoes. If killing something is a matter of pride, this isn't a matter of respect. This wasn't a hunt -- this was murder for one of pleasure, satisfaction, or revenge (I'm not certain which). An animal was killed for following its instincts.

This has nothing to do with every animal killed, hooked, baited, trapped , et cetera after the fact. Those animals have nothing to do with this.

The main thing that separates current homo sapiens from all other beasts is an ability of higher thought process (and possibly opposable thumbs). To say -- well, the animal did this (killed bunnies, left claw marks on my car) and so I responded by killing it (or paying a bounty for its hide) -- is just barbaric. This is taking pleasure in killing something because it did something you didn't like.

Trying to distract the argument by the merits and needs of hunting or fishing, the merits of catch and release, or the conditions of animal raising and slaughter for food have no bearing on this situation. None of them apply. The cat was not killed for any of those purposes, and the motive behind the killing is not related to those issues. This is not the same as hunting or fishing or food processing. Not by a long shot.

By the way, I think the bunnies look cute. And also, I really like the taste of wild rabbit.

Chris

[Joe Leigh]

Trying to distract the argument by the merits and needs of hunting or fishing, the merits of catch and release, or the conditions of animal raising and slaughter for food have no bearing on this situation. None of them apply. The cat was not killed for any of those purposes, and the motive behind the killing is not related to those issues.
Chris

This sums it all up.

[Dan Hintz]

Chris,

I feel my "lol" was quoted out of context in your post.

The cat that i shot was given respect, no i did not eat it but it grew some great tomatoes.
My amusement was about Heather's cute twist of words about not eating what she shot, but that it still served a purpose (fertilizer for tomatoes) and did not go to waste. I was not laughing at the fact that she actually shot the cat.

That said, I may have wasted the furry little bugger, too. Maybe not for killing rabbits, but there are usually plenty of other viable reasons, and I'm not about to fault Heather for choosing to protect the local woodland creatures over someone's unkempt pet. What if the bunnies were Heather's pets... would you have chided her for killing a neighbor's pet for killing her own? Tough to be sanctimonious when a small change in the situation gives it a whole new light.

I'm tired of people allowing their animals to roam freely because it's too much trouble to keep them indoors or take responsibility for their actions. If you want a pet, then treat it like one and take care of it. When you purposefully let it out and leave a dump in my yard larger than my head, like the horse-sized dog two doors down from us, come clean it up. When it uses my $50k car's hood for a space heater and thanks me by leaving claw marks down the hood as two cats fight for the right to stay warm, you had best be willing to pay for the damages and compensate me for the trouble. Failing that, I'm going to take steps to prevent it from happening myself.

[Scott Shepherd]

I had a neighbors cat that tore my car finish to pieces. Every night it would find my car and jump on it, it would jump and miss, it would slide down the hood, fenders and everywhere else. It literally ruined the paint on my car. I talked to the neighbor about it, they didn't seem to care, I called animal control, they told me that cats are not considered pets in our county, as they are capable of taking care of themselves, so there was nothing they could do.

So I couldn't sue the owners, and animal control told me there is nothing they can do, and nothing I could do. So I just ended up letting my paint get ruined by the cat.

I sprayed it with water (which the animal control person told me to do), and it made no difference, it would just come later in the evening when I wasn't watching for it.

Not sure how that's fair to me, but that's how it played out. They finally moved out, and of course, left the cat. I think over time, it decided there was better food somewhere else, since it's owners weren't there to put food out any longer.

[John Coloccia]

It occurs to me that there are a lot of people out there that have a very adversarial relationship with nature.

[Chris Kennedy]

When I made my post, it was not actually to be argumentative. I don't think that I am going to convince people to think other than the way they do. I posted what I did because I had read the thread, and I had to say _something_. We all have those issues that require us to speak up, and this was one in my case.

I has been suggested that I am being sanctimonious. To be sanctimonious requires being hypocritical -- sanctimony is a contradictory show of devotion, and I don't think I have said anything contradictory or hypocritical. But, to be on the safe side, I will let people know where I come from, and I will let everyone judge my hypocrisy.

When I was a toddler, riding my tricycle around the driveway, the German shepherd from two doors up got out of its yard, came running down the street and attacked me. Luckily for me, it was a cold day, and I was wearing a thick jacket/parka. The dog got the collar of my jacket and tore the back completely off. Had it not been for the thick collar, it would have had my neck. Thea took a second attempt at my neck, by which time my dad had come running and got the beast off of me. What exactly he did, I don't remember. Most of it was a blur. Dad was preparing one of the front flower beds, working it over with a pickaxe in preparation of going over with the rototiller. I don't remember if he hit Thea with the pickaxe, kicked the damn dog with his work boots, or whatever. All I remember was being curled up on the driveway trying to protect myself and screaming. Thea went scarpering back to her yard.

My dad went tearing up to the owner's house. They were two doors up from us, and the intermediary neighbor went with him. He had seen the attack, but he wanted to make certain that my dad didn't tear the owner limb from limb.

My dad told them if the dog went anywhere near any of his kids, he would have it destroyed (note: he would have it destroyed, not kill it a month later).

Thea's attack has left a permanent mark on me. I have small scars on the back of my neck from her second attempt, and to this day, I have a fear of dogs. From being a toddler to going away from college, that damn dog lived two houses away from me. I can remember the Newton's walking that dog on a leash, and as a kid, I would still run behind the fence and shut the gate despite Thea being leashed.

If anybody has a right to put a bullet into that dog, first in line is me, and second is my dad (and more practically the other way around since my dad is more accomplished with a rifle from his military days).

So, I have literally been in the same position as the baby bunnies in Ms. Thompson's post. To this day, I can remember Thea's teeth on my neck, and trust me, that isn't something you want to feel.

And for the record, my issue is that the cat was killed a month later in a premeditated fashion, not in the immediate defense of the baby rabbits. Maybe I didn't convey that very well.

I have never killed Thea. My dad never did. We never enticed it in and put a projectile into her a week later, or a month later, or six months later, or years later. That damn dog died of old age or some old age ailment.

I very well may be sanctimonious and hypocritical. I'll take that hit. After all, I've been attacked by a German shepherd that literally left me crying in a ball trying to protect myself and to this day, the sight of most dogs causes adrenaline surges, and despite that fact, I always put myself between the dog and my toddler to protect him -- just in case -- after what I went through. I think I know what it means to live with an animal that has attacked me and in the cold light of day, I still don't think it is right to put a projectile into it a month later. It would no longer be defense, it would be vengeance. And yes, I think vengeance is _not_ a good side of us as human beings.

So, if I am a sanctimonious hypocrite, so be it.

And to be perfectly honest, I don't like cats.

Chris

[Bill Cunningham]

I would have shot the dog in a heartbeat and called the neighbor to come down and scrape it off my driveway with a shovel if need be.. But, that's just my nature I guess!

[Chris Kennedy]

I would have shot the dog in a heartbeat and called the neighbor to come down and scrape it off my driveway with a shovel if need be.. But, that's just my nature I guess!

My dad was digging up one of the garden beds in the front yard when it happened. In the heat of the moment, if my dad had a rifle in reach, he may very well have done that, except possibly that I was in the middle of the attack.

My dad literally went after the dog by himself. I was too young to remember exact details, but I remember my dad yelling and running over. I remember seeing a blur over my shoulder as Thea came in for the attack, and the back being ripped off my parka. I also remember coming off my trike as she hit again.

My dad came running. I think he kicked the dog or he may have hit it with the pickaxe he was using to dig up the garden bed. I'm not certain. The dog ran away. I remember that. I have been told that he had the pickaxe in hand when he confronted the neighbor, which is part of why the intermediary neighbor followed him to make certain my dad didn't do something irreversible.

I honestly think my dad would have been justified in killing Thea at the time, and he would have done it or have been mauled in the attempt if that damn dog hadn't run away.

Cheers,

Chris

[Phil Thien]

What I have now seen is truly appalling.

...

A cat was killing baby bunnies. Yes, it is sad, and probably somewhat horrific to watch. But the cat is an animal, that while domesticated, still has hunting instincts. Plenty of house cats will "play" with rodents and are taught by their mothers to do so. Cats are not vegetarians -- I don't think they are even omnivores. Cats will turn feral and hunt. This cat was doing what cats do.

I can understand being appalled by what it was doing, and possibly being angry enough to chase after it with a 2 by 4 with nails in the heat of the moment. Killing it a month later is not in the heat of the moment.

Planning to kill it, announcing the intention to do so, and doing so is a clear sign of premeditation. Furthermore, there is a clear indication of taking pride in the kill, and humor that the corpse went into growing tomatoes. If killing something is a matter of pride, this isn't a matter of respect. This wasn't a hunt -- this was murder for one of pleasure, satisfaction, or revenge (I'm not certain which). An animal was killed for following its instincts.


So how do you feel about ranchers shooting wolves or coyotes?

[Harold Burrell]

So how do you feel about ranchers shooting wolves or coyotes?

Or hunting down a mountain lion after it attacked your child?

[Phil Thien]

Or hunting down a mountain lion after it attacked your child?

When using the Socratic method, it is important not to jump ahead like that. :D

[Harold Burrell]

When using the Socratic method, it is important not to jump ahead like that. :D

Socrates would have shot the cat. :p

[Phil Thien]

Socrates would have shot the cat. :p

I was thinking more along the lines of a nice bowl of milk laced with hemlock.

[Harold Burrell]

I was thinking more along the lines of a nice bowl of milk laced with hemlock.

...or flintlock.

[Brian Ashton]

So how do you feel about ranchers shooting wolves or coyotes?


The last time they let the ranchers loose they completely wiped out many of the top predators from a great deal of America. Is that the answer you would like to see again but maybe this time wiped out completely - many ranchers think that wouldn't be such a bad thing...

Ranchers are often unwilling to realise that they moved into the wolves and other carnivores territory - not the other way round. And are even less able to understand that the carnivores are doing what comes naturally - trying to survive!

And if that weren't enough look what's happening in Yellowstone now! Since the reintroduction of the wolf riparian zones are transforming and being restored before "our" eyes. Why because on one simple thing, they brought back one of the apex predators. The beneficial spill on effect will be something to study for generations. Probably the best example of how bad a decision it was to simply get out the gun and try to wipe out predators...

We, as supposedly the more advanced animal, have an obligation to be smarter and work with the environment instead of simply grabbing the gun and or poison and wiping it out because it doesn't fit into our narrow minded perception(s) of how things should be. It is such a basic concept and blows me away on how hard it is for people to grasp it.

[Brian Ashton]

Or hunting down a mountain lion after it attacked your child?

Honest question: are you being a troll or asking a legitimate question?

I could ask others the same question in this thread but they're obviously playing the troll.

[Harold Burrell]

Honest question: are you being a troll...?

I am offended. Me? A troll???

Come on...

[Brian Ashton]

I am offended. Me? A troll???

Come on...

There appeared to be two possibilities and thus the question. To me the question had an obvious answer, unless you were trying to be difficult i.e. a troll, sh#$ disturber... There's a few here that are trying hard to be trolls so if I have you mistaken I am sorry.

The obvious answer I am talking about is if an individual predator has a specific taste for human flesh has to die... I.e. it specifically targets humans and therefore goes and finds humans to kill and eat. Does research support such a notion in mountain lions? I would suspect in the vast majority of cases, no. Mountain Lions are very shy and don't like to be anywhere near humans unless a specific lion is in dire straights and therefore must be dealt with accordingly. But there are exceptions. I remember a cougar (canadian for mountain lion) that attacked a child at a rural Vancouver Island elementary school. Obviously it had to be killed because it had discovered the elementary school was a "fertile" hunting ground of "easy" prey and had lost it's fear of human development. Trapping and relocation wasn't an option because of the likely hood of it seeking out another elementary school to hunt...

Unlike another cougar that was found hiding in the back of a small rural towns fire departments fire truck. It was tranquillised and relocated because it didn't pose a real threat to humans but in fact was desperate to get as far away as possible from people - so why kill it?

Another cougar that was found in the parking garage of the Empress hotel in Victoria BC. It had to be killed when it bolted from the garage and crashed through the living room window of a friend of mines apartment and proceeded to tear up the living room. The risk of it tearing a person apart was too great therefore it was killed (Un-benounced to the hunters that followed it in to the apartment, my friend had barricaded herself in the bathroom when she heard the crash of the window pane).

My brother lives in an area that is littered with black bears, cougars and wolves. He is constantly finding tracks throughout his property. Basically be smart and be cautious. He's lived there for over 13 years and has had no problems with them. But if some had there way they would all be wiped out because of idiotic irrational fears. Now if the bear(s) was always getting into everyones garbage cans should it be killed - of course not! Trap the bugger and relocate it to a very secluded area... What about a bear that is determined to get into a house - kill it! It's a clear danger to the people around.

Many different predators but only one criteria for determining whether it needs to be killed. Does it pose a real threat to people?

[Phil Thien]

Ranchers are often unwilling to realise that they moved into the wolves and other carnivores territory - not the other way round. And are even less able to understand that the carnivores are doing what comes naturally - trying to survive!

Your profile doesn't indicate where you live. Please let us know a general location, and whether it was ever populated by wolves or other carnivores.

Or did settlers show up and find it devoid of any predatory wildlife?


We, as supposedly the more advanced animal, have an obligation to be smarter and work with the environment instead of simply grabbing the gun and or poison and wiping it out because it doesn't fit into our narrow minded perception(s) of how things should be.

So your argument (distilled) is that this was a wild (feral) cat, doing what wild (feral) cats do, and shouldn't have been shot.

Would either of the following articles change your perspective?

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/09/0907_040907_feralcats.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_cat

SUMMARY of articles: Feral cats are a non-native species, preying on many native species. They are decimating our bird populations.


It is such a basic concept and blows me away on how hard it is for people to grasp it.

Indeed.

[Ronald Blue]

The trick is to throw a rug or blanket over the trap and the skunk stays calm. Although it wouldn't have had a happy ending here(for the skunk).

[Bill Cunningham]

The trick is to throw a rug or blanket over the trap and the skunk stays calm. Although it wouldn't have had a happy ending here(for the skunk).

I have found that skunks won't spray when in a live trap.. Up to five of them now, and got one of the raccoons that took up residence in the insulation under my work shop. There is not much I can do with the skunks, I just drag the trap to the back of the yard, roll it over so the door falls down, and stays open when I flip the latch and watch the skunk run off and under the neighbors shed. I had caught a Raccoon a few nights ago, but they have very useful 'fingers' and it managed to pull in the folding rear section of the trap, and escape. I wired the back section closed to prevent that from happening again. The Raccoon I got last night, stayed in the trap all night. In the morning I dropped the trap in the trunk of my car, and drove it about 10 miles away to a park area, and released it where it would be very unlikely to find it's way back.. 25 - 40 years ago, I would have saved the time & fuel, and simply shot them all and buried the remains so they wouldn't stink up the yard. Unfortunately, we now live in a subdivision. We didn't move here, every one else did. If I fire a gun in my back yard now, I risk a visit from the local over reactive swat team, who would show up with every single piece of equipment they own. They have to use it, or risk losing it.. Click the Name Jonathan Logan (http://www.lufa.ca/news/news_item.asp?NewsID=5747) and you'll know what I mean.

[Brian Ashton]

Your profile doesn't indicate where you live. Please let us know a general location, and whether it was ever populated by wolves or other carnivores.

Or did settlers show up and find it devoid of any predatory wildlife?



So your argument (distilled) is that this was a wild (feral) cat, doing what wild (feral) cats do, and shouldn't have been shot.

Would either of the following articles change your perspective?

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/09/0907_040907_feralcats.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_cat

SUMMARY of articles: Feral cats are a non-native species, preying on many native species. They are decimating our bird populations.



Indeed.

Personally I think you're nit picking with these questions, but I'll answer anyways.

I grew up on the out skirts of Kamloops BC where there are bears, wolves, cougars and lots of rattle snakes. Had a family of bears try and join use for dinner at Shuswap lake campground one night. I then moved to Vancouver Island and again was surrounded by black bear, and cougars. Probably wolves to but you never saw them. Probably was stalked by a few cougars on my many hikes in the bush. So for the first 40 yeas of my life I've been in fairly close proximity to the outdoors. At present I live in australia where the wild life to worry about is more of the human kind.

As if that sort of experience or any other actually matters... Intelligence is what's needed no matter where you live and that is severely lacking.

For the next question... You're leaving out what I had also said previously - was that deliberate? I'll paraphrase it for you here. I said if you're going to exterminate a "pest" then do it right. Kill every last one of them quickly, humanely and permanently (I didn't go into detail on this because I thought it was obvious when I said what comes next). Instead of perpetuating cruelty disguised as doing good for the environment or more accurately simply for revenge after the fact with absolutely no hope of accomplishing anything of value unless you are incredibly obtuse.

I'm all for eliminating introduced species but not by (insert your favourite adjective here) running around with guns and clubs getting off on it - cause that's all they're doing. As can be inferred by those making jokes about growing tomatoes with the carcass.

If what ever country I will be living in in the future outlaws cats as a pest I have no problem with that but as I said above it needs to be done properly. You also have to stop the idiots from owning them before you can have any hope of eradicating them (that's part of the intelligence that I inferring above and you agreed with "indeed") Any attempt to even control them without the former firmly in place is as futile and ill conceived as trying to pushing water up hill with a rake. But! you get the opportunity to teach your kids that senseless killing is perfectly alright. Noting like bonding with your youngins over a carcass...

So you seem to agree that there isn't much intelligence being exercised... as if it's me that isn't "Indeed" So my subtly condescending friend what's your suggestion on the subject?

[Dan Hintz]

I'd suggest killing all of the cats...

While we're at it, let's just take out the bunnies, too...

Of course, if we do that, we'll need to find something else for people to lambast each other with their personal opinion on what's right and what's wrong...

Maybe I'll just shoot the ellipses and be done with it^^^

[Phil Thien]

Personally I think you're nit picking with these questions, but I'll answer anyways.

Thanks for being a good sport.


...if you're going to exterminate a "pest" then do it right. Kill every last one of them quickly, humanely and permanently (I didn't go into detail on this because I thought it was obvious when I said what comes next)...

Do you have a suggestion for a good way to kill 70 million feral cats spread across fifty states, every last one of them quickly, and humanely?


I'm all for eliminating introduced species but not by (insert your favourite adjective here) running around with guns and clubs getting off on it - cause that's all they're doing. As can be inferred by those making jokes about growing tomatoes with the carcass.

If what ever country I will be living in in the future outlaws cats as a pest I have no problem with that but as I said above it needs to be done properly. You also have to stop the idiots from owning them before you can have any hope of eradicating them (that's part of the intelligence that I inferring above and you agreed with "indeed") Any attempt to even control them without the former firmly in place is as futile and ill conceived as trying to pushing water up hill with a rake. But! you get the opportunity to teach your kids that senseless killing is perfectly alright. Noting like bonding with your youngins over a carcass...

So you seem to agree that there isn't much intelligence being exercised... as if it's me that isn't "Indeed" So my subtly condescending friend what's your suggestion on the subject?

Suggestion on what subject?

Are you asking what I think motivates hunters/fishers other than "getting off?"

Or are you asking whether I think it was okay for Heather to shoot a feral cat before it killed more rabbits/birds?

Maybe you're asking what I think about other SMC members deriding her?

Or something else entirely?

[Dan Hintz]

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg144/DKaidian/humor/bunny-pancake.jpg

[Chris Kennedy]

So how do you feel about ranchers shooting wolves or coyotes?


Or hunting down a mountain lion after it attacked your child?

I am curious why the two of you want to know my answers to these questions. I can see two reasons. One is legitimate interest, and the other is a hope to trip me up and contradict myself. In light of the conversation so far, I cannot imagine another, though feel free to correct me. I see no harm in assuming it is the former.

How do I feel about ranchers shooting wolves or coyotes? If a pack of wolves or coyotes is an immediate threat, then the rancher has the right to shoot the predators in defense of his herd. By an immediate threat, I would define that as worrying the herd or worse. There may be different situations where a demonstrable immediate threat exists, but I will freely admit I lack a full knowledge of all possibilities.

As for hunting down a mountain lion after it attacked my child, my concern would be my child. Now, if the the appropriate authorities deemed there was a demonstrable public safety issue and that it was necessary to hunt the animal down, I would endorse it. If there was a reason to believe it was a "man-killer" (and I would like a zoologist who knows something about mountain lions to make that decision as a part of the appropriate authorities), that would constitute a demonstrable public safety issue. There very well may be others situations that would be deemed a public safety issue, but since my child has never been attacked by a mountain lion, I am working in a vacuum. Again, I don't have a full knowledge of all possibilities.

Now I have a question or two for the questioners.

All of this angst has stemmed from a particular, existent incident.

How are these situations applicable to the incident that I found appalling? The ranchers shooting wolves and coyotes are driven by a profit motive (I hope). Wolves and coyotes are a threat to their livelihood, and they are taking both a preemptive and active strike against that threat. Justified or not, I do not see how this is remotely akin to someone enticing an animal in and killing it a month after something the cat killed the shooter didn't have a profit motive in. Whether the rabbits lived or died had no bearing on her livelihood. They were not domestic rabbits being raised for food or income. They were wild animals.

As for the highly hypothetical mountain lion attacking my child scenario -- as I have said, I have never had my child attacked by a mountain lion, so I don't know my reaction. I do know my reaction to being attacked by an animal (okay -- it wasn't a mountain lion, and it wasn't a wild animal, but trust me, that really isn't any comfort. Teeth are teeth.) A person's child is not commensurate with wild rabbits under the deck.

It seems to me the issue overlooked in these scenarios is the revenge/vengeance aspect and the apparent pleasure taken in it (the latter is definitely missing). That is what I object to. No more, no less.

Chris

[Brian Ashton]

Thanks for being a good sport.



Do you have a suggestion for a good way to kill 70 million feral cats spread across fifty states, every last one of them quickly, and humanely?



Suggestion on what subject?

Are you asking what I think motivates hunters/fishers other than "getting off?"

Or are you asking whether I think it was okay for Heather to shoot a feral cat before it killed more rabbits/birds?

Maybe you're asking what I think about other SMC members deriding her?

Or something else entirely?

I already stated this... I think a good start is to ban them out right from anyone owning them. But since I've spent about 30 mins on the subject I'd say that I have reasonable confidence in intelligent people finding methods of dealing with the remaining cats in a humane and permanent fashion.


For the second question. I think the general direction of what we (meaning you and me) are talking about should give you a good indication - don't you think. Personally I don't think you have any idea how to even start with such a problem other than what I have suggested...

[Phil Thien]

Now I have a question or two for the questioners.

All of this angst has stemmed from a particular, existent incident.

How are these situations applicable to the incident that I found appalling? The ranchers shooting wolves and coyotes are driven by a profit motive (I hope). Wolves and coyotes are a threat to their livelihood, and they are taking both a preemptive and active strike against that threat. Justified or not, I do not see how this is remotely akin to someone enticing an animal in and killing it a month after something the cat killed the shooter didn't have a profit motive in. Whether the rabbits lived or died had no bearing on her livelihood. They were not domestic rabbits being raised for food or income. They were wild animals.


(1) You're saying Heather "enticed" the cat into her yard in order to shoot it?

Her exact words were "About a month later I was sitting at my desk and heard the cat in the neighbors yard, took out my Sheridan air rifle and opened the window, said meeeoow and the kitty dropped on the spot."

The distinction is important. The way you paint it with the word "enticed" is pretty unsavory.

It seems you mischaracterized what Heather said, why?

(2) So you're saying it is okay for a rancher to protect his profit by shooting a wolf, but that it isn't okay for an individual to kill a non-native species that is attacking one or more native species?

So you put profits above protection of the ecosystem?

[Bruce Page]

This thread has swayed far from the original posters intent. It has become argumentative with a touch of name calling thrown in.