IBC Replacement Blade (2") Review - Pics Heavy

[Tri Hoang]

Somehow the universe align and I ended up with a 2" IBC replacement blade for Lie Nielsen. I got this blade for another plane, not a Lie Nielsen, though.

It comes in a pretty fancy package - evidence of some marketing love. Here is how it comes off the package

[Tri Hoang]

The package claims that the blade has been lapped on a 1000x and 8000x and will pass the hair shaving test. Out of the box, this blade failed to shave any hair off my arm, though. The scratch patterns on both sides suggest somewhere between 220-800 grit lap. Here is how its back (face) and bevel look.

[Tri Hoang]

Compared to my Lie Nielsen A2 blade on the left that has been lapped on my Shapton Pro 12K the IBC blade looks pretty dull...The LN blade shows a nice reflection of the IBC blade on the right.

[Tri Hoang]

Compared to an out-of-box WoodRiver blade (#3, 1-3/4") the IBC blade show a coarser scratch pattern as well.

[Tri Hoang]

Where the rubber meets the road = heavy pushing. I put the IBC blade in my generic #5 smoother as-is without any sharpening and it is beyond dull. I managed a few shavings but it took a lot of effort. I'd have resharpened my own blades well before this point. This blade is no where near ready out of the box...worse than Veritas/Lie Nielsen and even WoodRiver blades out-of-box. I think this claim is pretty much bogus, at least with my blade.

[Tri Hoang]

I lapped the back of the IBC blade for about 9 minutes on my Shapton Pro 1500 before getting a consistent scratch pattern. During that time, I had to stop & flatten my stone once. As one could tell from the pic, the back of the blade has a high center and low sides.

The feedback on the Shapton is that of a firm, gritty, not too-muddy feel. I guess the blade hardness is comparable to average Hock/Lie Nielsen A2 but a little softer, just like the Veritas blades.

[Tri Hoang]

Another 4 minutes on my Shapton Pro 5K and Shapton Pro 12K and I've gotten a mirror polish on its back. So my overall time for lapping the back is about 13 minutes. I'd say that it's average compared to the Hock/Lie Nielsen A2 blades but way longer than most Vertias A2 blades. On most Veritas A2 blades that I've own, they took less than a minute on average to go through the 1500 stone.

[Tri Hoang]

So a few more minutes on the front bevel at 30* I've gotten a pretty sharp blade. I put it in a WoodRiver V3 #4 and it easily take full width/length shavings off a piece of Ash I have laying around. I don't think the digital caliper is very accurate but it's the only thing I have to give some measurement at this scale...Let's say it's between .5-1 thous. I have no idea how durable the edge on the IBC blade is until further testing.

[Asher Langton]

Thanks for the review and the pictures. I don't see why IBC puts a secondary bevel on the blade if it's not thoroughly honed. Seems like a waste of effort.

By the way, what do you think of the new WoodRiver planes? I help one briefly today at Woodcraft and it looked nice. Seemed well-made, with a thick, cleanly-ground iron, but I didn't have a reference surface to see how accurately it was machined.

[Shawn Stennett]

I bought the Rob Cosman version of the IBC blade and I had a much better results than you did. Mine would shave hair out of the package and was pretty flat and did not look as course on the back as yours. I am not very experienced with hand planes but was happy with my purchase for my number 5.

[Tri Hoang]

My initial thoughts on this 2" IBC blade:

- The blade is well-made. Sides are clean & polished. The back is reasonably flat. I have no scientific way of telling how hard/durable the blade is. My guess is based solely on the feedback received on my various stones. I think it's closer to RC 60...comparable to Veritas blades and a little softer than the LN/Hock A2 equivalent. Having replacement plane blades available at a local store for a large chunk of old/modern bench planes is a good selling point.

- Various IBC claims on their packaging are iffy at best such as:

* Lapping on 1000x & 8000x - not with the scratch patterns I've seen
* Out of box "shave hair" razor sharp - I tried really hard to the point of scrapping my skin but no hair fallen.

The rest of the claims such as double tempered, air harden, precision ground...are just marketing blobs.

I love using thick blades on old Stanleys so if I have a need and Woodcraft gives enough incentives at the same time, I may get another one.

I hope you find the review helpful & thanks for reading.

[Jim Koepke]

- Various IBC claims on their packaging are iffy at best such as:

* Lapping on 1000x & 8000x - not with the scratch patterns I've seen

Maybe the last 0s are just typos?

Thanks for the review I enjoy having the information.



jim

[Sam Takeuchi]

Interesting. So basically if you wanted a thick A2 blade, wouldn't it be better to go with Lie Nielsen A2 blade (not the vintage replacement kind) for $0.01 more and be content that it'd be manufactured to a high standard? I'd be happy with a new blade wrapped in old newspaper and plastic blade guard if it was made to a high standard. This fancy packaging and half hearted lapping job really doesn't speak for quality at all. Not a good first impression, at least for me.

[scott spencer]

Thanks for the enlightening insights. I've been curious about these blades since their launch....not a great first report for an expensive premium product! It'd be interesting to hear their defense.

[David Weaver]

That's odd. i got two of them from WC right when they were coming out, and they were lapped and polished on the back. Not flat to my stones, so I had a couple of minutes of work to get them flat to my stones (and that could be me, and not them, never will know), but they were polished.

Sharp enough to shave hair out of the box, but not quite the same type of sharp you get used to if you sharpen with a 1 micron stone or stop with good stropping technique.

There was no large secondary bevel like that that I can recall.

The issue I see with having them polished and with no microbevel is that while a beginner will be able to throw them right in a plane in that condition, if they're at 25 degrees (not sure what they are), the honed edge will take a hike quickly or chipout, as the virgin edge of A2 blades sometimes do. I'd rather have the microbevel if they're polished. If they're not, they almost have to tell you what angle the secondary bevel was done so you can throw a tertiary bevel on it with a polishing stone.

They are good irons, but all of the replacement A2 irons are good irons. I don't know how hard they are, either, didn't test one, but I suspect they aren't harder than LN blades, which doesn't really mean much, because LN blades are 62 hardness, and there isn't a lot in the world of A2 that's harder than that.

I once sent an iron back to LN because I *imagined* that it wasn't hard, i guess because the first thing I subjected it to was something punishing, and because it honed easily on the stones. They humored me and tested it and said 61.5. Talk about feeling like a dunce! I apologlized to them, and they said "well, it's one of the older ones, but we'd be glad to send you a new one along with it if you're not satisfied" (it had the old style finish on the steel, but was still A2). Talk about trying to make a customer feel good - prove there's nothing wrong with the iron, and offer to send another one anyway. I felt really guilty and doofy after that. I should've just appreciated that it yielded to the stones easily and was still hard - that's a sought after trait that you pay money for if you're buying japanese tools.

I did not generally say anything about the IBC irons when I got them other than to mention that they were good irons and another choice that's just fine to use, because I didn't pay anything for them, but I also didn't get paid to look at them. As close as all of the A2 irons are in performance, there's no reason to pick favorites unless you're just picking on price to your doorstep, which is what I do.

At any rate, something has changed in the process. Maybe they've gotten feedback from the people who had the polished irons that led them to feel like it wasn't worth the expense. Packaging should be changed if that's the case.

I took a new LN iron (i had one unused on hand) and a new IBC iron and put them through their paces on a stroke count test until they wouldn't cut - on hard maple. Both fresh out of the box and then once after grinding a sixteenth or so off of them. One of them lasted 800 strokes and the other 1050, I won't say which, because they could've easily flip flopped results on the next test. In testing those, and in testing some of the other A2 irons for curiosity, the only thing I can really conclude is that all of them last an incredibly long time if you get one that does not chip out. The iron that first develops small chips (leaving lines among a mirror shine) is going to be the first one that fails completely 500 or so strokes later, regardless of which is harder if they are not worlds apart in hardness.

A couple of other things I figured out doing that, because I never let an iron get as dull as they got before they stopped cutting:
1) a lot of times when you start to get tired and think the iron is dulling, paraffin on the bottom of the plane will do miles more good than running to sharpen the iron. Especially worthwhile if you're not doing final smoothing and you're sharpening more often than you need to. If you're doing final smoothing, then depending on what you like, it's maybe worth putting the iron on the stones often to make sure everything gets a nice finish with no lines.
2) In real life use, I usually touch up the iron when it's around the 200 or 300 stroke range and you can tell that it's starting to lose its ability to leave a nice finish. The irons will cut for a very very long time after that if you're not taking tissue shavings. I determined my irons were no longer fit to cut when they weren't able to take a .002" shaving. The iron that lasted to 1050 was leaving a very interesting finish on the wood at that point, but still cutting. The surface left behind almost felt fuzzy.

Goes back to what george wilson says - it's the quality of the steel in the iron (assuming he means compact grain size and uniformity or lack of very large carbides).

In my experience, all of them are different if they aren't the same age, even within the same brand. Some feel harder than others, some chip a little when they're new and need to work back, and a really great iron doesn't do that, but I haven't had a brand of iron yet where all of them don't chip before the first regrind or two.

Back to the iron, you can always contact WC customer service and ask them what happened and why the iron isn't ready to use out of the box. The reaction you'll get at different stores varies by who is behind the counter, but if you go to WC corporate, they are very concerned about customer service IME.

[Casey Gooding]

I set up a plane for someone a few months ago with one of the Rob Cosman blade & chipbreaker kit. I had almost exactly the same experience as Tri. It was certainly no where near a fine edge out of the package and would not shave anything.
However, once I got the back and bevel polished, it produced 0.0005 shavings on an old Stanley.
My only real gripe is to either truly prep the blades like the packaging advertises, or stop making those claims.

[Tri Hoang]

I bought this blade retail. It's the only IBC blade I have so I can't say that all IBC blades are like that. Perhaps their QC has slipped? A2 blades have varying degrees of hardness, even with the LN/Hock/Veritas. The Hock A2 on my Stanley 5-1/2 is my best blade ever. I use it to hog off wood & it lasts a loooooong time. I've sent back a LN A2 blade one for replacement due to its softness.

[jerry nazard]

Tri,

Thank you for taking the time to share your photos and testing impressions. Feedback is one of the prime assets of this forum!

-Jerry

[Brian Rabinovitch]

Tri,

I would like to offer you a replacement blade. There was a lapping issue with some of the very first IBC/Pinnacle blades and that was quickly resolved. If you send the blade to the address posted on our website ibccan.com , I will send you a replacement and an IBC/Cosman blade chip breaker set at no cost to you, for your troubles.

Mark on the package : Attention of Customer Service - Return
Please include your full return address to ensure quick delivery.

Thank you for the feedback

Brian Rabinovitch
President/CEO
Industrial Blade

[Brian Rabinovitch]

Tri,

I would like to offer you a replacement blade. There was a lapping issue with some of the very first IBC/Pinnacle blades and that was quickly resolved. If you send the blade to the address posted on our website ibccan.com , I will send you a replacement and an IBC/Cosman blade chip breaker set at no cost to you, for your troubles.

Mark on the package : Attention of Customer Service - Return
Please include your full return address to ensure quick delivery.

Thank you for the feedback

Brian Rabinovitch
President/CEO
Industrial Blade
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/misc/progress.gif http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/buttons/edit.gif (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=1503304)

[Steve Branam]

Brian Rabinovitch
President/CEO
Industrial Blade

Yet another example of the excellent customer service that small tool companies have shown here! I've never tried any IBC products, but it's nice to see they stand behind them (it's also good to see they're vigilant in chasing down problems).

So all this brings up the question, for us non-metallurgists, how are we to judge? It sounds like there's enough variability in the manufacturing process that even high-quality vendors may have bad production runs that get to market (I'm not talking about lapping or other finishing, I'm referring to the metal composition). Is that true?

Can anybody point to any online references suitable to bring a newbie up to speed to understand the differences in grains, crystalline structure, heat and strengthening processes, edge life, carbon content, steel types, etc? "The Idiot's Guide to Blade Metallurgy"?

[David Weaver]

Ron hock has a book that's instructive, I hear. Schtoo has a short summary of steels, which includes other stuff that's not western-world tool steels, but it does have info on the western world stuff.

http://toolsfromjapan.com/index.php?pr=Steel_and_the_woodworker.

Brent Beach's sharpening page (google it) gives you a good idea of durability between the different types of steel, and a look at the edge after they've stopped cutting, so you get a very good idea of how they fail.

In reality, unless you're working on cocobolo and teak all the time, any premium iron will work extremely well. If you're working on cocobolo and teak or some other wood with a lot of silica, high speed steel blades (M2 and such) are worth looking at.

A good A2 iron with proper sharpening materials will smooth as well as a high carbon iron. One that fails by chipping instead of by wear may not be quite as good for a smoother, and require honing a little more often and at a steeper bevel if the lines bother you. No steel is totally exempt from chipout, though high carbon steel irons

Bottom line, buy a quality blade, something that sharpens it well, use it for a while and don't worry about the details too much until you see a fault you don't like.

[Jim Koepke]

Yet another example of the excellent customer service that small tool companies have shown here! I've never tried any IBC products, but it's nice to see they stand behind them (it's also good to see they're vigilant in chasing down problems).

To me, that says more than any slick advertising or testimonial display.

Stand up for what you sell and it is better than anything where they just take the money and run.

jim

[jerry nazard]

To me, that says more than any slick advertising or testimonial display.

Stand up for what you sell and it is better than anything where they just take the money and run.

jim

Yep! Point well made, Jim. As more companies step up to the plate for us woodworkers (LN, Grizzly, LV, TFWW, etc....) the better it is for all concerned.

Best to you!

-Jerry

[Tri Hoang]

Tri,

I would like to offer you a replacement blade. There was a lapping issue with some of the very first IBC/Pinnacle blades and that was quickly resolved. If you send the blade to the address posted on our website ibccan.com , I will send you a replacement and an IBC/Cosman blade chip breaker set at no cost to you, for your troubles.

Brian Rabinovitch
President/CEO
Industrial Blade

Thanks for the offer, Brian. It shows that the manufacturer cares about product quality vs marketing. I don't suppose the person who QC the blade for razor-sharp/hair shaving test ran out of hair to test for this unfortunate batch :).

In any case, I'm happy with the blade after spending some time on it. I rather spend my time working wood than preparing another blade. More over, I don't really need the Rob Cosman's chip breaker. If an old Stanley can't handle a thick blade, I just pop in a new LN yoke. It's quick & I still have quite a few of them from my last order.

I think Woodcraft would have a real winner if it starts bundling the IBC blades with the new Wood River V3 planes. I had a few PM about these V3 planes so I'll try to do a quick review on them soon.

[Steve Branam]

Schtoo has a short summary of steels, which includes other stuff that's not western-world tool steels, but it does have info on the western world stuff.

http://toolsfromjapan.com/index.php?pr=Steel_and_the_woodworker.

Brent Beach's sharpening page (google it) gives you a good idea of durability between the different types of steel, and a look at the edge after they've stopped cutting, so you get a very good idea of how they fail.


Thanks, Schtoo's article is an excellent start! At least now I'm not completely ignorant. I've seen Brent's pages before, although I haven't been through all of them.

[Van Huskey]

Let me just say that although I am a POWER tool guy I am getting into the benefits of hand tools added to my machines and when the day comes to be adding blades to my growing collection of planes IBC will be at the top of my list. I appreciate great CS.

[Steve Branam]

I appreciate great CS.

Me too! So after following this and reading up a little on metallurgy and some other threads on cheap tools, I went ahead and ordered the Pinnacles for Stanley #4 and #6 from Woodcraft. I have 4, 5, and 6 of current Stanley consumer lines that I bought 4 years ago, and old 4, 6, and 7 with patent dates of 1910, 1902, and 1910, respectively. Since I use my 5 as a rough jack, I'm not looking for precision on that one, but the 4, 6, and 7 I want working as well as I can get them.

The CEO of the company showing up to defend his product and make it right is convincing. It's either clever marketing, or they really do care! I'll assume the latter (the goodwill benefit from Rob Lee appearing here rubs off). The rest is the luck of the draw to see what gets shipped out from the warehouse.

I'll hold them to a high standard and return them for exchange if they don't pass inspection, in order to give them the best shot.

[scott spencer]

Tri,

I would like to offer you a replacement blade. There was a lapping issue with some of the very first IBC/Pinnacle blades and that was quickly resolved....

Brian Rabinovitch
President/CEO
Industrial Blade

That's what I like to see in these situations!

[Richard Niemiec]

I'm sure IBC makes fine irons. What I don't understand is why folk expect not to have to sharpen a new iron a little bit, and flatten the back a little bit, on anybody's iron - notwithstanding any marketing spin. Sharpening is a small part of woodworking, and is to be expected. What I call 'fetish' sharpening, sharpening for sharpening's sake, turns this on its head and makes woodworking a small part of sharpening.

I subscribe to the Tag Frid school of sharpening, good enough to get the job done. Quick freehand for a minute or two and then back to the real work. No offense to anyone's choice in sharpening equipment, but I simply can't imagine why anyone would think they require a 12k stone for sharpening anything but scalpels for cardiac surgeons. Wild and tricky grain is less than 10% of woodworking (maybe even 5%), and if you have some, then get a little particular about sharpening.

I spent 5 minutes resetting the bevel, flattening the back and freehanding the edge on a 50 year old stock Millers Falls block plane iron with the following results after putting it to some cherry:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4137/4936268054_1c2d071c8d_b.jpg



........using Norton "coarse" and "medium" crystolon oilstones, and a "fine" india oilstone, followed by stropping on some leather, and finish by stropping on a brown paper bag from the supermarket; I honestly don't even know what the oilstone grits are. My point is that one doesn't have to spend hundreds of dollars, and hours, to get good edges on your irons and chisels. That being said, I am just as certain that adding an iron from IBC (or Hock, or Woodriver, or LV or LN) to this old MF #17 would dramatically improve its performance, but the sharpening regimen would remain the same. Just saying it works for me.

[David Weaver]

Any method works.

The "fetish" sharpening may actually be quicker, though, unless taken to extremes.

I usually only use two stones - a 1K and a 15k. Why? No stropping of any type is needed off a 15k stone, because no wire edge persits, and it's much finer than a lot of other methods in less time. I got my 1k and 15k stone "on discount" and though I've gotten a lot of other stones since, they are still the fastest and finest way to hone something aside from turning on a power strop (if you powerstrop on something really fast long enough, you'll sling a tool or plane blade when you're tired), which has a real relaxing effect on the sphincter.

I think there is a false sense that using very fine stones means it takes a lot of time to sharpen. That's only true if you apply the progression required with oilstones to diamonds, ceramics and aluminum oxide stones. They cut so fast, that skipping grits is no big deal.

From time to time now that I finally have oilstones, I'll use them. A soft or hard arkansas, followed by a hard black arkansas followed by a chromium oxide hard strop. They feel nice and it's nice to mix it up sometimes. It takes longer, though. They also cost more than my bargain bin shaptons pair, but they are very large and very nice stones.

It's hard to spend a lot of time sharpening plane blades and chisels with any method unless you're doing unnecessary steps. Taking the plane apart and putting it back together takes more time than the sharpening.

That's just an alternative viewpoint. Fine is better than less fine, as long as it's still quick. Anything that's slow or tedious is bad because it'll encourage you to put off sharpening or let a pile of tools accumulate that require your attention for a half hour to get them all back to spec.

I also agree that I never expect to get anything that's not going to require at least a little work. Even if such an iron existed, after 10 minutes of vigorous work even on the best irons, you need to hone.

A lot of tools are advertised as coming "razor sharp", but I've never seen one that is (exception for expensive japanese toos). Closest I've seen is the IBC irons and the muji irons, which still are considerably sharper after you hone them than they were when they arrive. If muji ever decides to make an HSS version of their plane iron with the slot oriented so it works in a stanley plane, it'd be a popular item with everyone who has the means to sharpen it.

[Sam Takeuchi]

I don't think the issue was people not wanting to sharpen or expect a blade to come out ready out of the box. It was simply putting the producer's claim to the test. Even if blades came sharp, I think this is one of those things each and everyone wants their touch rather than someone else's before using it for any serious task. Originally, the blade and what was boasted on the package ware extremely contrary and blade having rough, really rough back didn't speak for quality. When it is advertised as lapped flat, I think people do expect a certain level of standard or in this sense, flatness, in the product. I don't think that's people being lazy or not wanting to do the prep work. That's just pointing out the false claim and saying so. But it was clarified and it's an isolated batch of defective products, I don't think people who will purchase these blade would have to be concerned about their choice.

[Steve Branam]

My IBC Pinnacle blades arrived Tuesday, a 2" for #4 plane and a 2 3/8" for #6 or 7.

The blades passed all home sharpness tests: shaving hair (though my left arm is almost bald from sharpening chisels a few days ago), edge against top of thumbnail, running thumbnail along edge, and taking cherry end-grain shavings while holding the blade by hand. The sides and faces were precisely machined. To the limited degree that I as a hobbyist can evaluate blade quality, they certainly appeared to be high quality. However, they were not lapped. The 2" had no additional scratch pattern at all, and the 2 3/8" looked identical to Tri's, with the scratch pattern looking like 800 grit at best. The packaging was identical to his, stating lapped on 1000 and 8000 grits.

I had been curious to see if I would get both lapped, one lapped and one like Tri's, or both like his. This was a further inconsistency. So what's going on here? I took some photos, spent 10 minutes on each one going through two cycles of 1000 and 8000 Norton waterstones to verify that they could indeed be lapped to near-mirror polish at the end, and took some more photos.

The backs before polishing:

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_6qAGOXP58V0/TIuHNZ6tPYI/AAAAAAAACIk/--ypZTw_7tI/s400/img_0761.jpg

And after (shiny metal surfaces are notoriously hard to photograph, so the reflection photo shows the result indirectly):

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_6qAGOXP58V0/TIuHOZm1LHI/AAAAAAAACIo/ffA34Qk2Fto/s400/img_0766.jpg

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_6qAGOXP58V0/TIuHPBhHA1I/AAAAAAAACIs/cL-FEwMO5tk/s400/img_0772.jpg

Since Brian Rabinovitch, President and CEO of IBC, had clearly demonstrated a willingness to engage with customers to work toward a satisfactory resolution when there was a problem, I wrote up an email with my findings Thursday night and sent it in to the IBC customer service address. I stated that I wanted to give them an opportunity to respond and thanked them for taking the time when some random customer demands attention. It's important to remember that behind every company name, there are people showing up for work every day to make a living, and they deserve a fair shake. At a small one like this, they usually care about doing a good job. You don't assault that lightly. I work at a small company myself as a software engineer, so I know.

Friday morning I got a polite email from Brian asking if he could call on the phone to discuss it rather than using email. I sent him my cell number.

He called after lunch, and we spent 39 minutes talking. First, I can tell you he is very passionate about his company and his products (on their website, you can see they make a variety of machine knives for industrail applications as well as plane blades). It's not just blind defense against criticism to protect the business. He really believes in them. He holds them to a high standard and has faith in their ability to meet it. He genuinely wants to put out a good product and is willing to discuss ways to make it better. He wanted to talk about his QC process and the standards they use for evaluating blades, as well as address the issue of lapping. I scribbled notes as we talked.

He said he's a metallurgist, not a woodworker, so he relies on experts like Rob Cosman and David Charlesworth for their opinions and feedback. He also relies on customers such as ourselves.

He said there are three things that define their blades: flatness, squareness of edges, and long lasting sharp edge. The A2 steel, hardening, and cryogenic treatment provide the edge life. The flatness and squareness they achieve through their manufacturing. They don't allow anything to compromise these. He said Rob Cosman told him that because the blades are so flat, they could be made ready for use in the plane with 35-60 seconds of work using Charlesworth's ruler trick. I realize that not everyone buys into the ruler trick, but it's certainly a fast technique for lapping just the area that counts.

He described their QC process, which involves placing a blade on a precision flat table (basically a reference plate), placing a precision square across the back, and pushing the square with a go/no-go gauge (and here I apologize, because my notes and memory fail me regarding gauge size - did he say this or did he say that? It's a detail I don't want to get wrong). If the gauge fits under it at any point, the blade is rejected and then they have to go see why that happened. It's important to understand the tolerance here. Literally, that means tolerance for some gap, but how much? The gauge defines how much can be tolerated. So if you place a machinist's square across the back and see a tiny bit of light, is that flat? Brian says he gets on his guys when they say things like "a tiny bit". How much, specifically? You need to gauge it to see if it's within tolerance. If lapping shows some unpolished areas, you have to put a precision square on it and gauge it before you call it out of flat. Brian said they've been thinking about making a video to show their QC process, so I hope they do. It would be very informative for us as consumers so that we have the right expectations.

He said that they originally lapped the blades, but discovered that the lapping process was affecting the flatness. Realize that they're a production operation, so any step they perform has to be done on a machine that can keep up with the volume. While a craftsman can spend 10 or 15 minutes hand-lapping an individual blade to high polish, that's just not feasible here. They have to have a machine that can do an acceptable job at the required production rate, and such a machine doesn't exist. Since they couldn't lap them acceptably and still maintain their flatness standard, they decided to stop lapping. Flatness rules.

However, they continued to use up their old packaging. So some of the packaging (and the Woodcraft website) still show 1000 and 8000 grit lapping. He said they removed that from their packaging, and didn't say it on their matched blade/chipbreaker set (I note that the Woodcraft listing for the matched set does not say it). So this is a case of the packaging and marketing not keeping up with process changes. Confusing, annoying? Yes, I can understand that. But I do see his point about flatness, and therefore being able to do blade preparation in under a minute using the ruler trick. A few more minutes prep gets a larger area lapped if you feel the need for that.

He said they're still debating whether or not to lap, but it depends on being able to find a machine that can do it while maintaining acceptable flatness. For now, they don't want to compromise flatness.

I very much appreciated his taking the time to talk. It won't end the debate about whether the blades should be lapped or not, whether the packaging and marketing is misleading, whether the product justifies the price, whether you should buy these vs. another brand, or even whether you should expect to use a blade right out of the package without a little prep work (there will always be those who believe blades should be sold sharpened so they can be put to use in minimum time, and those who believe the buyer should be reponsible for sharpening to personal preference no matter what). I do believe IBC is making an honest effort to make a premium product, they're not deliberately trying to mislead, and they're a company worth supporting. They pay attention to detail.

[David Weaver]

My IBC Pinnacle blades arrived Tuesday, a 2" for #4 plane and a 2 3/8" for #6 or 7.

The blades passed all home sharpness tests: shaving hair (though my left arm is almost bald from sharpening chisels a few days ago), edge against top of thumbnail, running thumbnail along edge, and taking cherry end-grain shavings while holding the blade by hand. The sides and faces were precisely machined. To the limited degree that I as a hobbyist can evaluate blade quality, they certainly appeared to be high quality. However, they were not lapped. The 2" had no additional scratch pattern at all, and the 2 3/8" looked identical to Tri's, with the scratch pattern looking like 800 grit at best. The packaging was identical to his, stating lapped on 1000 and 8000 grits.

I had been curious to see if I would get both lapped, one lapped and one like Tri's, or both like his. This was a further inconsistency. So what's going on here? I took some photos, spent 10 minutes on each one going through two cycles of 1000 and 8000 Norton waterstones to verify that they could indeed be lapped to near-mirror polish at the end, and took some more photos.

The backs before polishing:

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_6qAGOXP58V0/TIuHNZ6tPYI/AAAAAAAACIk/--ypZTw_7tI/s400/img_0761.jpg

And after (shiny metal surfaces are notoriously hard to photograph, so the reflection photo shows the result indirectly):

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_6qAGOXP58V0/TIuHOZm1LHI/AAAAAAAACIo/ffA34Qk2Fto/s400/img_0766.jpg

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_6qAGOXP58V0/TIuHPBhHA1I/AAAAAAAACIs/cL-FEwMO5tk/s400/img_0772.jpg

Since Brian Rabinovitch, President and CEO of IBC, had clearly demonstrated a willingness to engage with customers to work toward a satisfactory resolution when there was a problem, I wrote up an email with my findings Thursday night and sent it in to the IBC customer service address. I stated that I wanted to give them an opportunity to respond and thanked them for taking the time when some random customer demands attention. It's important to remember that behind every company name, there are people showing up for work every day to make a living, and they deserve a fair shake. At a small one like this, they usually care about doing a good job. You don't assault that lightly. I work at a small company myself as a software engineer, so I know.

Friday morning I got a polite email from Brian asking if he could call on the phone to discuss it rather than using email. I sent him my cell number.

He called after lunch, and we spent 39 minutes talking. First, I can tell you he is very passionate about his company and his products (on their website, you can see they make a variety of machine knives for industrail applications as well as plane blades). It's not just blind defense against criticism to protect the business. He really believes in them. He holds them to a high standard and has faith in their ability to meet it. He genuinely wants to put out a good product and is willing to discuss ways to make it better. He wanted to talk about his QC process and the standards they use for evaluating blades, as well as address the issue of lapping. I scribbled notes as we talked.

He said he's a metallurgist, not a woodworker, so he relies on experts like Rob Cosman and David Charlesworth for their opinions and feedback. He also relies on customers such as ourselves.

He said there are three things that define their blades: flatness, squareness of edges, and long lasting sharp edge. The A2 steel, hardening, and cryogenic treatment provide the edge life. The flatness and squareness they achieve through their manufacturing. They don't allow anything to compromise these. He said Rob Cosman told him that because the blades are so flat, they could be made ready for use in the plane with 35-60 seconds of work using Charlesworth's ruler trick. I realize that not everyone buys into the ruler trick, but it's certainly a fast technique for lapping just the area that counts.

He described their QC process, which involves placing a blade on a precision flat table (basically a reference plate), placing a precision square across the back, and pushing the square with a go/no-go gauge (and here I apologize, because my notes and memory fail me regarding gauge size - did he say this or did he say that? It's a detail I don't want to get wrong). If the gauge fits under it at any point, the blade is rejected and then they have to go see why that happened. It's important to understand the tolerance here. Literally, that means tolerance for some gap, but how much? The gauge defines how much can be tolerated. So if you place a machinist's square across the back and see a tiny bit of light, is that flat? Brian says he gets on his guys when they say things like "a tiny bit". How much, specifically? You need to gauge it to see if it's within tolerance. If lapping shows some unpolished areas, you have to put a precision square on it and gauge it before you call it out of flat. Brian said they've been thinking about making a video to show their QC process, so I hope they do. It would be very informative for us as consumers so that we have the right expectations.

He said that they originally lapped the blades, but discovered that the lapping process was affecting the flatness. Realize that they're a production operation, so any step they perform has to be done on a machine that can keep up with the volume. While a craftsman can spend 10 or 15 minutes hand-lapping an individual blade to high polish, that's just not feasible here. They have to have a machine that can do an acceptable job at the required production rate, and such a machine doesn't exist. Since they couldn't lap them acceptably and still maintain their flatness standard, they decided to stop lapping. Flatness rules.

However, they continued to use up their old packaging. So some of the packaging (and the Woodcraft website) still show 1000 and 8000 grit lapping. He said they removed that from their packaging, and didn't say it on their matched blade/chipbreaker set (I note that the Woodcraft listing for the matched set does not say it). So this is a case of the packaging and marketing not keeping up with process changes. Confusing, annoying? Yes, I can understand that. But I do see his point about flatness, and therefore being able to do blade preparation in under a minute using the ruler trick. A few more minutes prep gets a larger area lapped if you feel the need for that.

He said they're still debating whether or not to lap, but it depends on being able to find a machine that can do it while maintaining acceptable flatness. For now, they don't want to compromise flatness.

I very much appreciated his taking the time to talk. It won't end the debate about whether the blades should be lapped or not, whether the packaging and marketing is misleading, whether the product justifies the price, whether you should buy these vs. another brand, or even whether you should expect to use a blade right out of the package without a little prep work (there will always be those who believe blades should be sold sharpened so they can be put to use in minimum time, and those who believe the buyer should be reponsible for sharpening to personal preference no matter what). I do believe IBC is making an honest effort to make a premium product, they're not deliberately trying to mislead, and they're a company worth supporting. They pay attention to detail.

They could do it with a horizontal grinder like lee valley does and stop at a finish that was right around one step below a final polish stone.

As I said in one of my previous posts, the polished iron wasn't quite flat to my stones (which are dressed for each sharpening), so I'm not surprised to hear that the lapping wast taking them out of flat a bit.

The whole sharp when you get it thing isn't really a wortwhile deal unless the iron has a microbevel and has some of the edge ground away, so it's better for them to be flat, like he says, than sharp with a polish and not flat.

[Jonathan McCullough]

He said he's a metallurgist, not a woodworker, so he relies on experts like Rob Cosman and David Charlesworth for their opinions and feedback. He also relies on customers such as ourselves.


If it were my business, I'd make it my business to come to an understanding of my products as much as the people for whom my products are intended. He outsourced expertise in his own products? Really? I mean seriously?



It's important to understand the tolerance here. Literally, that means tolerance for some gap, but how much?


Yes, it is important to understand tolerance here. As in, who cares? When your lever cap will in and of itself will deflect a blade enough to probably see a light gap.



He said that they originally lapped the blades, but discovered that the lapping process was affecting the flatness.


In machining, lapping and flatness are not mutually exclusive. Lapping is a process, flatness is a quality of a workpiece. To get something flat, you usually lap it. (The lapping process can also be used to seat two different, nonflat parts, like a valve and a valve seat).



However, they continued to use up their old packaging. So some of the packaging (and the Woodcraft website) still show 1000 and 8000 grit lapping. He said they removed that from their packaging, and didn't say it on their matched blade/chipbreaker set (I note that the Woodcraft listing for the matched set does not say it). So this is a case of the packaging and marketing not keeping up with process changes. Confusing, annoying? Yes, I can understand that.


No. Mislabeled. Flat-out incorrect. Not right. You can't label something "lapped to 8000 grit" and not lap it to 8000 grit. That's more than wrong.


It won't end the debate about whether the blades should be lapped or not, whether the packaging and marketing is misleading, whether the product justifies the price, whether you should buy these vs. another brand.


Sure ends "the debate" for me.

[Tri Hoang]

Thanks, Steve for a follow up review. I think you'll find the irons to be fine after the initial prep. However, I still think their original claim of having it ready out of the box isn't holding up. It's important because that is one of the most differentiation marketing factor for those blades. Of all the new blades that I have prepared, the closest ones to ready-out-of-the-box are those from Veritas.

As for those comments on sharpening stones/technique - to each his own. I have my system & I'm sticking with it. Free hand isn't necessary better/faster than using a jig...I do both. Ruler trick doesn't necessary save one's overall time spent sharpening... it depends.