Hock Iron ?

[Bob Warfield]

Some time back I bought a Hock iron for my #4. While it works very well and holds a good edge, it took forever to get the back flat. This weekend I bought a Hock iron for my 60 1/2. I wanted to try the IBC but my local Woodcraft was out of stock. Anyway I now have no less than 3 hours in it trying to get the back flat. There is about a 3/16" triangle shaped area just opposite the cutting edge in one corner that still is visibly not changing. I started with 180 grit paper on a granite surface plate after seeing that my 250 King waterstone wasn't going to do the job. I thought the 180 did the trick untill I went back to the 250 and then 1,000 stones.
Is this normal for an expensive blade or did I just get 2 bad ones?
Thanks,
Bob Warfield

[Don Dorn]

Can only speak for myself obviously, but the two I purchased came flat - not polished, but flat. I have a granite plate with ledges and just put a narrow piece of 600 wet/dry near one long edge and clamped it. I put a little water on it, kept the blade very flat and then just brought it back to me about 25 - 45 times and I had a polished surface. I have to force myself to do this slowly to ensure the blade stays perfectly flat.

Is it remotely possible that you are rolling the blade when you place it on or take it off your stone or paper? I did it for awhile without realizing it until a friend pointed it out. It can certainly compound your problem. You'll probably also get advise on the ruler trick, but with a quality blade like you have (along with LV & LN), I don't bother in that you polish it once and your done for life of the blade. Anyway, my .02.

[Ryan Griffey]

I just flattened a blade for a Bailey #7. I spent about ten minutes to get it flat. In addition, I have flattened about five of the Krenov style blades. All of them without much sweat.

I would send them back.

[Joel Goodman]

I have only one Hock iron (for a #6) and it was a bear to flatten. I ended up using the ruler trick as I lost patience. I figure as I use it I'll get rid of the dubbed corner. Not so with Lie Nielsen, Lee Valley or a Ray Iles carbon steel iron from Tools for Working Wood; they were all either flat or easy to flatten. Mine was carbon steel -- is your Hock carbon or A2? I was wondering if there was a difference in terms of flatness of the backs. One note on your block plane iron -- I believe the LN and LV block plane irons are a full 1/8th -- I think the Hocks are thinner.

[David Weaver]

make a stick out of a 2x4 and put two bolts through it about an inch and a half or two apart (through the face and not the edge) - bolts with heads big enough hold on your iron against the 2x4. Pick a fairly straight 2x4.

Do whatever you need to do to waste away most of the ends to make handles on it, and bolt the iron to the 2x4 and use that as a means to apply a lot of pressure while flattening.

You will have no problem flattening anything after that, and your triceps will be sore instead of your fingers.

Sometimes Hocks have milling marks (or sanding or something) that go toward the edge, and sometimes they don't. With the above-mentioned nasty flattening jig, I would have one of the hard to work types ready for the medium stone in 10 minutes at the most, likely much less, and then work through the remaining stones in less than five.

LNs were like that at one point when they first started hand lapping near the edge - they look like they were done with sandpaper and the scratches were deep and they were a bear to remove sometimes - harder than dealing with an iron off the milling machine, but the last one I did took five minutes and was better than the first one that had marks in it.

The IBC irons are pretty close to flat, at least the two I have. You may find they aren't quite flat to your stones and that you want to do a little to them if you're not a ruler tricker (they should go right out of the box if you use the ruler trick).

But the flattest I've seen every single time are the full-length lapped LVs. They can be mirror polished on a polish stone right out of the box without starting at a lower grit.

[Zach England]

I have purchased several Hok irons in a2 and have never had a problem. I'd send it back.


Hocks are pretty good, but I now swear by the Ray Iles from TFWW.

[Sandy Stanford]

Some time back I bought a Hock iron for my #4. While it works very well and holds a good edge, it took forever to get the back flat. This weekend I bought a Hock iron for my 60 1/2. I wanted to try the IBC but my local Woodcraft was out of stock. Anyway I now have no less than 3 hours in it trying to get the back flat. There is about a 3/16" triangle shaped area just opposite the cutting edge in one corner that still is visibly not changing. I started with 180 grit paper on a granite surface plate after seeing that my 250 King waterstone wasn't going to do the job. I thought the 180 did the trick untill I went back to the 250 and then 1,000 stones.
Is this normal for an expensive blade or did I just get 2 bad ones?
Thanks,
Bob Warfield

I thought I read somewhere that Ron had thrown in the towel on flat backs and was just recommending David Charlesworth's Ruler Trick to back-bevel the iron right at the cutting edge.

[Jon van der Linden]

There is about a 3/16" triangle shaped area just opposite the cutting edge in one corner that still is visibly not changing.

Not sure what you mean by "opposite the cutting edge." There's only one edge that I would interpret as opposite the cutting edge, which is the other end of the blade. Not relevant for sharpening or flattening. Adding the qualifier "just" makes it even more vague to me. Maybe I'm missing something here.

[David Weaver]

Not sure what you mean by "opposite the cutting edge." There's only one edge that I would interpret as opposite the cutting edge, which is the other end of the blade. Not relevant for sharpening or flattening. Adding the qualifier "just" makes it even more vague to me. Maybe I'm missing something here.

I'm guessing he just means on the back of the iron, opposite of the bevel.

I've never seen one that was that far out of flat, it may be worth the exchange for another one, but making something to hold the iron for future purposes will save you a lot of time and finger soreness, and prevent a little issue you'll find if you use diamonds or aggressive stones - a situation where you inadvertantly rub skin off of your fingers when you're sharpening, only to find out you did that when you're nearly done.

Such an iron holder opens the world of mild and moderately pitted or poorly sharpened old double irons, which are really not worth rehabilitating with finger pressure only.

I don't know how many irons and old wide chisels I've re-done with loose 120 grit diamonds on a kanaban, but it's a whole lot of them (quite a few that I ran across for free or near free that most people would've thrown out), and I would guess I've used probably $5-$10 worth of diamonds and $1 worth of WD40 - or less - and an $18 kanaban. The holder for the iron cost $0 since it was a 2x4 cutoff, and two salvage bolts. Even if you only use the holder one time for an iron that's not perfect, it still takes much less time to build the holder and use it than it would take to flatten the iron without it, and that includes if you "ruler tricked" only, which does no good on a moderately pitted iron.

[Ken Werner]

David, I'm having a hard time visualizing your jig. Can you post a photo? How do the bolts hold the iron without getting in the way?

[Jon van der Linden]

I'm guessing he just means on the back of the iron, opposite of the bevel.

If that's the case then it only matters if that's where the cap holds the iron, and even then that small an area probably won't affect performance. After all, this is for a block plane, and if mine are any reference, there's a significant difference in width between the cap and iron.

[Ashwini Kaul]

I don't know how many irons and old wide chisels I've re-done with loose 120 grit diamonds on a kanaban, but it's a whole lot of them (quite a few that I ran across for free or near free that most people would've thrown out), and I would guess I've used probably $5-$10 worth of diamonds and $1 worth of WD40 - or less - and an $18 kanaban. The holder for the iron cost $0 since it was a 2x4 cutoff, and two salvage bolts. Even if you only use the holder one time for an iron that's not perfect, it still takes much less time to build the holder and use it than it would take to flatten the iron without it, and that includes if you "ruler tricked" only, which does no good on a moderately pitted iron.

David,
Are you referring to this or something liek this?: http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-SFP200&Category_Code=THW

Which diamond paste have you used with most success and what size?
I am very keen to see some pics when you get a chance.

[David Weaver]

That's the plate. It has screw holes and is a lot easier to use if it's screwed on to a flattened block of wood for a base, and with something stuck to the bottom of the block - like sandpaper or a drawer liner or something.

The diamond I got was just dry diamond powder. I think it was 20 carats of #120 grit. I got it on ebay a while ago, and the seller is no longer there, but it appears there's other sellers, and $20 looks like the price for 100 carats instead of $20 (which is what I paid). Dry diamonds are what you want for this.

I probably wouldn't go smaller than 120 grit since the only purpose is to get initial flatness and it doesn't matter that the scratches are deep unless every following stone is novaculite/natural arkansas or some other natural stone that cuts a wide flat groove.

A single small pinch flattens any out-of-character iron. I usually don't have to use it for something like a hock iron - the holder and a medium waterstone are plenty to do up the back in a couple of minutes, as long as the waterstone can tolerate pressure.

[Steve Branam]

make a stick out of a 2x4 and put two bolts through it about an inch and a half or two apart (through the face and not the edge) - bolts with heads big enough hold on your iron against the 2x4. Pick a fairly straight 2x4.

Do whatever you need to do to waste away most of the ends to make handles on it, and bolt the iron to the 2x4 and use that as a means to apply a lot of pressure while flattening.

You will have no problem flattening anything after that, and your triceps will be sore instead of your fingers.


Are you referring to something like this simple jig/handle? http://www.woodworkuk.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3686&p=48156&hilit=MKII#p48156

It gives you leverage and positive grip to apply a lot of downward force.

Just beware if you read on more in that thread, it gets ugly! This is part of the "Grimsdale method" I talked about on my blog for sharpening. I tried it, it works, you may or may not buy into it.

[David Weaver]

More or less. Longer with two bolts and handles pointing out each end in the length (which negates being able to hone with it like that, but I dont' think I'd hone like that, though I don't see anything wrong with the method given a hard stone).

Longer with the face of the iron closer to the middle instead of at the end means you can use both hands for pressure and face the bench. Most of the time, though, I end up with both hands in the middle of the thing off the grip.

Anything of that sort works fine as long as you can feel if the iron is rolling or if it's not flat on the surface of the stone.

[Rob Young]

Some time back I bought a Hock iron for my #4. While it works very well and holds a good edge, it took forever to get the back flat. This weekend I bought a Hock iron for my 60 1/2. I wanted to try the IBC but my local Woodcraft was out of stock. Anyway I now have no less than 3 hours in it trying to get the back flat. There is about a 3/16" triangle shaped area just opposite the cutting edge in one corner that still is visibly not changing. I started with 180 grit paper on a granite surface plate after seeing that my 250 King waterstone wasn't going to do the job. I thought the 180 did the trick untill I went back to the 250 and then 1,000 stones.
Is this normal for an expensive blade or did I just get 2 bad ones?
Thanks,
Bob Warfield


Have you contacted Ron Hock about this? If there really is a problem I'm sure he would want to know. He occasionally pops up here on SMC so maybe he will happen along shortly.

[Ron Hock]

Sometimes a blade we sell isn't flat and we'll swap it for another without quibble. Try as we may, our QC isn't always perfect, but our guarantee is.

As to the OP's problem, yes, I think perhaps you've received two that needed more work than most. Judging from the very few blades we have to replace, I have to assume this is the case -- it sound as if your technique is pretty good. Just send it back and we'll replace it if you wish. An email form lives here (http://www.hocktools.com/emailform.htm), and please feel free to call: (888) 282-5233.

I do often recommend the ruler trick because of the time it saves. I know it is controversial and not for everyone. Here's my take on it. (http://hocktools.wordpress.com/2010/08/25/two-better-than-one/)

[Bob Warfield]

Thanks to everyone for the responses. The jig sounds like a good idea. I'm going to look into it. When I flattened the #4 blade I used double sided tape with a small block of wood. I don't know why I didn't do it with this one. Just before I got disgusted and quit last night I noticed blood on the side of my palm.
Anyway thanks to Ron Hock for his reply. I will give him a call tomorrow.
Thanks,
Bob Warfield

[David Weaver]

Attached are the pictures of the dirty nasty jig. Less than 10 minutes.

Works perfectly.

[Bob Warfield]

Thanks David. That looks like a good idea. The block of wood I used with the double sided tape also worked very well but the tape was "Turners Tape" and was a bear to get apart!
Thanks,
Bob Warfield

[David Weaver]

I did the double sided tape before, too. It works well, but it takes a little more screwing around and can be really hard to get apart. It would always slide a little on me, too.

Drill the holes the same size as the bolts and keep a cordless drill socket that fits the bolts and nuts around and it's really easy to keep the irons in this.

I have the commercial version for japanese plane irons (i don't know if I said that already) - it doesn't work with western irons, but it does work with chisels. A similar device could be made like this cheap one without the bolts but with some hose clamp straps and a wedge (it works by wedging the iron against a steel strap since there's no slot).

The only thing you have to be careful about with these is not getting rammy and tipping it and letting the edge dub a little. It doesn't take long to feel what the stone is telling you about grip and stiction, though, and avoid that. The ability to really lean into an iron is well worth any hassle, including the 10 minutes it takes to hack handles out of a 2x4 and scrounge up some bolts, washers and nuts.

[Ken Werner]

Thanks for clarifying David. Looks like a good idea.

[Bob Warfield]

I sent the 60 1/2 blade back to Mr. Hock and got a replacement today in the mail. I really didn't think I would get it untill the end of the week. Anyway this one is flat! I'm happy again! Now I need /want new irons for both my #7 & #8. Can't wait for WIA! :D
Thank You to Mr. Ron Hock
Bob Warfield

[Patrick Tipton]

I don't post much, but read this forum regularly. I just wanted to applaud Mr. Hock for great customer service. That is the way companies are supposed to treat their customers. I have two Hock 151 spokeshave blades and they are great. Great product and great company. Keep up the good work!

Regards, Patrick

[lowell holmes]

I have three Hock irons on my three Bedrocks. I've had them for six years and they have been good. They were flat from the get-go.

[Steve Branam]

David, I definitely want to try this out on some old pitted blades. Do you only do this on a kanaban, or on stones? What kind of stones? This seems like you'd be putting a lot of pressure on it, turning a waterstone to mush in minutes! Do you start with heavy pressure for coarse work, then lighten up at finer grits, or use the same pressure for all?

[David Weaver]

Kanaban for the rough grit, and stones after that.

I leave irons in the holder until I've worked the back all the way through the grits. Not as much pressure on the stones as on the kanaban, but they are not doing the same amount of work as the stones.

All of the stones and the kanaban are mounted with epoxy (stones) or screws (kanaban) to a substrate piece of wood that can take some of the brutn.

The stones do wear faster than they would if you were using finger pressure, but there is still a large time savings. flattening the stones after finishing (i usually use 3 - 1000,5000 and 15000 shapton professional) doesn't really take more than a minute or so with a diamond hone.

I think the shapton stones would crack (just guessing) if I didn't have them on a hard substrate (i used kingwood scraps with rubber feet, which don't flex much at all).

Just trust your hands and feel when you're working. If you feel like you're pushing too hard for a finish stone and in danger of rolling the iron and scuffing the surface of the stone, then you probably are. If all is going smoothly, then...well...it is.

You can do the same thing with kings if you have a way to keep them sequestered and supported underneath. The kanna video I saw that triggered the desire to find an easy way lap out pitting and flatten showed a blacksmith doing the honing on what looked like a very large king stone (similar material to a king red 800 or 1000 stone). Just use as much of the surface as you can and flip the stone to use the other side after you've done a good bit.

[Steve Branam]

I remembered seeing something about this in Odate's book. He uses a length of wood that's about the width of the iron and twice times as long as a backer block, and just holds it together with one hand, the other hand on the other end of the wood, putting pressure on the edge.

I made a quick little MDF sandpaper block with 80-grit PSA on one side and 120 on the other for the coarse grinding, and tried that method with an old single iron from a wooden plane, using heavy pressure. It worked quite well. The iron slipped around a little bit, but not enough to be a problem. I went from the sandpaper to a hard Arkansas, kind of a big skip, and then to an 8000 waterstone, easing up the pressure on the stones so I didn't damage them.

This gave the ugly old iron a nice polish in less than 10 minutes, would have taken at least 30 using just finger pressure. It still has an ugly area in the middle of the polish, but near the edge is fine.