What else should I get as far as CMS??

[Eric Wheeler]

I asked this question as secondary question to a previous thread, but got no answers, figured since the question doesn't have anything to do with the title of the previous thread I'd start a new one.

Anyway, I have a DeWalt 1511 RAS and a Delta 10" CMS. I plan to get a 8" CMS. I should add that this question pertains to a shop only environment. My portable on the road tools are totally separate. Is there any sense in a 12" CMS or SCMS? I plan on the 8" CMS (or 8 1/2" or 8 1/4" whatever the case may be) regardless, but in getting that, would there be any reasonable sense in keeping the 10" CMS around for in the shop only?

[Will Overton]

If you have decided yet what you plan to work on, letting us know might help get you an intelligent answer. If you don't know what you are going to do, you are just collecting tools. In that case, keep everything. Once you start becoming a woodworker, get rid of the stuff you don't use.

It ain't rocket science, but we still need some parameters.

[Eric Wheeler]

If you have decided yet what you plan to work on, letting us know might help get you an intelligent answer. If you don't know what you are going to do, you are just collecting tools. In that case, keep everything. Once you start becoming a woodworker, get rid of the stuff you don't use.

It ain't rocket science, but we still need some parameters.

Well, I know that I do plan to build kitchen cabinets for any house I build or remodel. I plan on building some audio speaker boxes. Besides that I don't really know, whatever pops up. I do know that I won't be building any boats or anything like that. I don't see myself making like knick knack type things like carving animals or piggy banks or anything like that. Other than that, I can't really think of much of anything else that I'd "fall" into of course I can't really think of any other "types" of woodworking other than what I've mentioned. Maybe shoot some more out there and it might spark something in my mind that it may be something I could get into in the future. But yeah, my biggest things would be cabinets/basic furniture type things.

[Andrew Nemeth]

What are you getting the 8.25" CMS. Looks to me like you already have it covered. I have a small 8.25 CMS that I used to take to jobsutes for cutting strip flooring and shoe because I could just carry it along with me as I went. I don't know if I would invest in another saw for crosscutting at thus point if you already have a RAS and a CMS.

-Andrew

[Tom Rick]

I believe one of the surest routes to a well selected set of tools is in the purchase of those tools you need, when you need them.

Start with what you have- buy additional tools or upgrade as you meet the limitations of your existing tool set.

Most take a good long time to build their tools up to full capacity. The purchases go hand in hand with increased interests, needs and skills of the wood worker. As such, the tools are well selected for the task at hand and suit the worker using them.

[Eric Wheeler]

Well, in another thread for a similar thread I started, it was said that theoretically the 8" will be more accurate as there is less blade flex/wobble. Now this may be similar to the analogy of peeing in the ocean and watching the water rise, but as an engineer, I sleep better at night knowing that everything was done to help eliminate the most possibilities for inaccuracies. I kind of want an 8, 10, and 12 plus the RAS...but I think that may be getting a bit ridiculous, so I am trying to narrow it down a bit. I know its hard to do without the specifics of what kind of work is to be done, but I figure if I get enough opinions from everyone who does different types of work, I can make a spreadsheet that weighs all of the opinions, and arrive at a decision. It's not necessarily the number of saws I am trying to cut down on...cuz if need be, I'd just have two or three of the same of something rather than one of each. I guess a better way to word my question is "Besides portability (because that is irrelevant in this particular comparison) what are the strengths/weaknesses between the 8, 10, and 12?" Ok, the 8 we have concurred that it MAY be more accurate due to flex/wobble, I'm sold on that idea even if it is minuscule. The 12 has the biggest capacity, but I doubt more than my RAS (maybe as much, but I doubt more) So what does the 10" have over the others (remember, I don't care about portability in this particular situation) And does the 12 have anything else besides the capacity?

[Gordon Eyre]

Eric, a good 10" or 12" cabinet saw has you covered in that area. The 12" saw can make a deeper cut and generally is 3 to 5 HP where most 10" saws are 2 to 3 HP. Personally the Powermatic 10" saw that I own serves me well and I have never felt a need for anything larger. Course I want to be like Norm so if someone offered me a 12" cabinet saw I would take it. As for accuracy of cut, a 10" saw with a stabilizer is just as accurate as an 8 1/2" saw. Blade vibration and wobble has never been a problem for me but then I bought a quality saw so I would expect nothing less. If I had all the room I could use and plenty of money I would buy a 12" cabinet saw to go with my 10" just so I did not have to change from a rip to a crosscut blade (which by the way I don't do very often). And of course the very occasional 4 x 4 I want to cut in one pass.

[Will Overton]

You could probably use this;

http://www.amazon.com/Popular-Mechanics-Workshop-Fundamentals-Complete/dp/1588165574/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283133598&sr=1-1

[Eric Wheeler]

You could probably use this;

http://www.amazon.com/Popular-Mechanics-Workshop-Fundamentals-Complete/dp/1588165574/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283133598&sr=1-1


Cool, thanks. My local library just happens to have a copy, so I can save the money from purchasing it to buy more tools and equipment

[Andrew Nemeth]

Eric,

Do you already have a quality table saw? With the RAS and CMS you already have and a TS with a crosscut sled on it, I can't imagine too many cases were a smaller CMS or SCMS would excel. Truth be known, in my shop I hardly use a CMS for anything other than rough cuts anyway. I have never used a CMS or SCMS of any size that had less flex in use than a properly tuned TS.

[Eric Wheeler]

Eric,

Do you already have a quality table saw? With the RAS and CMS you already have and a TS with a crosscut sled on it, I can't imagine too many cases were a smaller CMS or SCMS would excel. Truth be known, in my shop I hardly use a CMS for anything other than rough cuts anyway. I have never used a CMS or SCMS of any size that had less flex in use than a properly tuned TS.

I don't have a TS yet, but am looking into them. And of course, looking for quality...I don't have room for junk. I have been looking at a bunch of older Delta TS. I am just trying to get a feel for what I need (or would like, etc) as far as versatility in miter cuts and such.

[Tom Rick]

Well, in another thread for a similar thread I started, it was said that theoretically the 8" will be more accurate as there is less blade flex/wobble. Now this may be similar to the analogy of peeing in the ocean and watching the water rise, but as an engineer, I sleep better at night knowing that everything was done to help eliminate the most possibilities for inaccuracies. I kind of want an 8, 10, and 12 plus the RAS...but I think that may be getting a bit ridiculous, so I am trying to narrow it down a bit. I know its hard to do without the specifics of what kind of work is to be done, but I figure if I get enough opinions from everyone who does different types of work, I can make a spreadsheet that weighs all of the opinions, and arrive at a decision. It's not necessarily the number of saws I am trying to cut down on...cuz if need be, I'd just have two or three of the same of something rather than one of each. I guess a better way to word my question is "Besides portability (because that is irrelevant in this particular comparison) what are the strengths/weaknesses between the 8, 10, and 12?" Ok, the 8 we have concurred that it MAY be more accurate due to flex/wobble, I'm sold on that idea even if it is minuscule. The 12 has the biggest capacity, but I doubt more than my RAS (maybe as much, but I doubt more) So what does the 10" have over the others (remember, I don't care about portability in this particular situation) And does the 12 have anything else besides the capacity?

I started years ago with the excellent Hitachi 8" SCMS. It does everything I need with a very high quality cut and no tendency to shoulder or drift down the face or a miter cut. A couple of years ago I purchased a Hitachi 10" CMS thinking that a small chop box that I could haul into boats would make a nice addition for trim work. The new 10" saw fails in every regard except being light. I will not produce near the cut quality of the heavy 8" SCMS the blade size is of no additional value as the 8" SCMS has a much greater cut capacity. The 10"saw is relegated to chopping 2x4's and such.

So.... in spite of my above post, if I was setting up and wanted the ONE saw to meet this function in the shop, it would be a quality 7-8" SCMS. I see no reason to go with a 10, 12, 14 or what ever other blade they manage to throw on a SCMS.

"I can make a spreadsheet that weighs all of the opinions, and arrive at a decision."

Your spreadsheet will lack a hard data point- how YOU use the saw. This is the most important column as it weighs the other entries....

[Eric Wheeler]

Your spreadsheet will lack a hard data point- how YOU use the saw. This is the most important column as it weighs the other entries....

Right, but since I don't know exactly what I may run into wanting to do in the future, so the spreadsheet represents everyone else who does all different sorts of stuff, which will in turn help me decide which way to go for the most versatile and expandable approach. The columns will all add up to the possibilities of how I may be using the saw...I know, I'm a nerd.

[Don Alexander]

there is such a thing as over analyzing things which is what it sounds like you are doing here

+1 for the buy tools as you find you need ability to do things that the tools you have don't work well for; buy quality tools and blades and you will find that all those little complaints most folks have with stuff like deflection of blades on a CMS will not be an issue the 2 things that result in deflection most often are dull blades and forcing the saw through the cut and often both at at the same time.

with a RAs and a 10" CMS move on to other tools with different capabilities you've got the crosscut thing well covered already

just my 2 cents HTH

[Will Overton]

Don,

You've got to realize that for some folks over analyzing is a hobby of its own. Nothing wrong with that, and engineers just can't help themselves. That's why they became engineers. :)

I can't wait until the OP decides to acually build something and has to select wood. :cool:

[Eric Wheeler]

there is such a thing as over analyzing things which is what it sounds like you are doing here

+1 for the buy tools as you find you need ability to do things that the tools you have don't work well for; buy quality tools and blades and you will find that all those little complaints most folks have with stuff like deflection of blades on a CMS will not be an issue the 2 things that result in deflection most often are dull blades and forcing the saw through the cut and often both at at the same time.

with a RAs and a 10" CMS move on to other tools with different capabilities you've got the crosscut thing well covered already

just my 2 cents HTH


Don,

You've got to realize that for some folks over analyzing is a hobby of its own. Nothing wrong with that, and engineers just can't help themselves. That's why they became engineers. :)

I can't wait until the OP decides to acually build something and has to select wood. :cool:

While over-analyzing is a "hobby" of mine as mentioned, that's not what I am doing here, what I am doing here is extreme over-preparedness. I want to have an exact plan laid out on paper so I can keep my eyes peeled for good deals on the tools that I get recommendations from, from you guys.

And I will have no problem picking out wood, I have done lots of building and remodeling for 25 years. I can see where you are coming from, but I am bipolar, and can adjust as need be. I have my engineer side, and my hands-on technician side. Right now is just the planning stage so I can be analytical and over prepared...but when the time comes to actually cough up the money, I may have an epiphany and ask myself...Do I REALLY need this...then I will respond, Of course you do, everyone needs one of these, plus it is on the plan, you CANNOT veer from the plan.

Yes, things like that actually go through my mind, conversing with myself. Shoulda seen me in one of my English classes that they wouldn't let me test out of I was literally having a 3 way conversation aloud (but in a whispering tone) with myself in the back corner of the room while the professor was lecturing. It was pretty crazy.

Anyway, I do appreciate all the advice and comments I get from you guys, every little piece adds up and will be very valuable in the future when I put everything together. I'm sorry if I have some redundant (irritating) questions. But you also gotta realize you guys are the closest thing to friends that I have left, so this is my strive for conversation with people of similar interests as me. I have ditched all of my real life friends one by one cuz they use and use and use me and I keep bending over backwards to help them any way that I can, then when I needed a little help they were nowhere to be found and I eventually say enough is enough, and shut them out of my life...So you guys get to deal with me now. Maybe so I don't over-agitate you guys, I should migrate back to one of my other forums for a while, then drift back and forth after a while.

[Eric Wheeler]

While over-analyzing is a "hobby" of mine as mentioned, that's not what I am doing here, what I am doing here is extreme over-preparedness. I want to have an exact plan laid out on paper so I can keep my eyes peeled for good deals on the tools that I get recommendations from, from you guys.

And I will have no problem picking out wood, I have done lots of building and remodeling for 25 years. I can see where you are coming from, but I am bipolar, and can adjust as need be. I have my engineer side, and my hands-on technician side. Right now is just the planning stage so I can be analytical and over prepared...but when the time comes to actually cough up the money, I may have an epiphany and ask myself...Do I REALLY need this...then I will respond, Of course you do, everyone needs one of these, plus it is on the plan, you CANNOT veer from the plan.

Yes, things like that actually go through my mind, conversing with myself. Shoulda seen me in one of my English classes that they wouldn't let me test out of I was literally having a 3 way conversation aloud (but in a whispering tone) with myself in the back corner of the room while the professor was lecturing. It was pretty crazy.

Anyway, I do appreciate all the advice and comments I get from you guys, every little piece adds up and will be very valuable in the future when I put everything together. I'm sorry if I have some redundant (irritating) questions. But you also gotta realize you guys are the closest thing to friends that I have left, so this is my strive for conversation with people of similar interests as me. I have ditched all of my real life friends one by one cuz they use and use and use me and I keep bending over backwards to help them any way that I can, then when I needed a little help they were nowhere to be found and I eventually say enough is enough, and shut them out of my life...So you guys get to deal with me now. Maybe so I don't over-agitate you guys, I should migrate back to one of my other forums for a while, then drift back and forth after a while.


Ok, I didn't realize how sappy that sounds before I sent it, I didn't mean it in that kind of way at all, it is just boredom rambling on and on. You're lucky I haven't been drinking, cuz then it would very likely be more like a book of rambling

[Will Overton]

Maybe so I don't over-agitate you guys ...

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not the least bit agitated. This is exactly the type of conversation I have with my real life friends. Of course, that might not say much for me and my friends, but I'm having fun.

BTW - seriously - a track saw should be on your short list if you are going to work with sheet goods. I have a DeWalt and Festool (the smaller one) and both are excellent. If you are going to do a lot of cabinets, like redoing a kitchen, the Festool parallel guides are a real time saver.

I really believe that spending more money for fewer quality tools, rather than having more, mediocre tools is the way to go. And, that way you can get by with a smaller spread sheet. :)

[Eric Wheeler]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not the least bit agitated. This is exactly the type of conversation I have with my real life friends. Of course, that might not say much for me and my friends, but I'm having fun.

BTW - seriously - a track saw should be on your short list if you are going to work with sheet goods. I have a DeWalt and Festool (the smaller one) and both are excellent. If you are going to do a lot of cabinets, like redoing a kitchen, the Festool parallel guides are a real time saver.

I really believe that spending more money for fewer quality tools, rather than having more, mediocre tools is the way to go. And, that way you can get by with a smaller spread sheet. :)

Well, track saw is on the list for sure, but it wasn't on the near future list. And I buy nothing but quality. Even though there may be something marginally better, I have EXTREME brand loyalty...and DeWalt is at the top of my list...in which I literally want one or more of EVERY type of tool they make...and want my portable setup to be DeWalt. Then affiliates rank right next to each other, so naturally Delta is on the top for shop equipment, and Porter Cable for most of the shop hand power tools like routers and drills, etc. Again, someone else may make a better router, where someone else makes the best sander, etc. But I like my stuff to "match" and I have loyalty like I said.

As far as the agitating, I'm sort of surprised, it usually doesn't take long...I don't think it has been quite long enough here yet, but I don't wanna go over the edge yet. Usually people get irritated because they don't quite understand what I am trying to say...mostly cuz I have a hard time explaining it in normal words, rather than college terms and such, but still, I am almost hated in another forum over a huge misunderstanding (and an inordinate number of very negative members) So I just want to tread lightly and not get that rep here...So I'll try to slow down the questions for a while.

[Will Overton]

Eric,

You really need to drop the brand loyalty. A year or two ago Black and Decker started repositioning their brands. The plan is to have DeWalt as the profession brand, Porter Cable a value brand and Black and Decker the low end homeowner brand. Stanley has since bought or merged with Black and Decker and seem to be continuing in that direction. So while you may want to be loyal to the brands, the brands are not going to be loyal to you. If you want your tools to all look like DeWalt, buy a bunch of yellow paint, but evaluate each tool for what it is, not for the name stamped on it.

The DeWalt track saw is IMHO going to do as good a job as the Festool. But would you really get the DeWalt if you were going to be doing work where the Festool parallel guides would make the job much easier. If that's the case, just do a global search on Craig's List for DeWalt.

If you're dead set on the DeWalt track saw, you can still get the cordless at Tools-Plus for $240 with 2 batteries and no tracks. Add a 59" track for $80 and get a $50 rebate from DeWalt.

[Tom Rick]

Usually people get irritated because they don't quite understand what I am trying to say...mostly cuz I have a hard time explaining it in normal words, rather than college terms and such,

You would be surprised at how many of us have advanced degrees and are perfectly at home with "college terms and such":D
so don't hold back...

Welcome to the forum:)

[Don Alexander]

:D no irritation here either but i do realise i sound like that in print sometimes :D

[Chip Lindley]

Ok, I didn't realize how sappy that sounds before I sent it, I didn't mean it in that kind of way at all, it is just boredom rambling on and on. You're lucky I haven't been drinking, cuz then it would very likely be more like a book of rambling

Isn't that the definition of a BLOG?

Eric, regardless of which forum you discuss your "miter saw concerns", you will find only a few who share your concern with your level of committment. Woodworking is not nearly as scientific an endeavor as you wish to quantify. Exact results cannot be repeated with all specimens of a given make and model chop saw or slider. Some are keepers; some are lemons. Which particular unit of a recommended brand/model will you happen to grab off of CL or theBay?? Hmm... Now you can add paranoia to your obcessive tendencies.

[Eric Wheeler]

Eric,

You really need to drop the brand loyalty. A year or two ago Black and Decker started repositioning their brands. The plan is to have DeWalt as the profession brand, Porter Cable a value brand and Black and Decker the low end homeowner brand. Stanley has since bought or merged with Black and Decker and seem to be continuing in that direction. So while you may want to be loyal to the brands, the brands are not going to be loyal to you. If you want your tools to all look like DeWalt, buy a bunch of yellow paint, but evaluate each tool for what it is, not for the name stamped on it.


I didn't know that. Also, I never cared for Porter Cable products in the past, but found out they were affiliated so I took a liking to them, even though I never tried one since I found out. Its sort of like having a hot step sister or something...you kinda feel like you gotta take a liking to them. Also, I prolly never would've been real keen on the PC hand tools had I not been browsing the Delta/PC website and see that Delta doesn't even make a band saw and a few other things, I think drill press, and others are all PC, so if I were to buy everything new, I'd have a mixture of Delta/PC and so I leaned in that direction on my wish list to have the PC instead of DeWalt tools in the shop since PC would be present anyway. But I guess since as of now I am shopping in the used market, I should be able to find everything in Delta and not PC, and since the older stuff is of quality, and the amount of use they'll actually see out of me, the used stuff will prolly last my lifetime of wood working, and thus I can avoid the PC brand. Plus now I have the DeWalt RAS, so I've been contemplating that as well, how can the RAS be the only DeWalt in my shop??

I know I may be crazy, but its not the yellow paint that has to make the tools match, it's just OCD knowing all my tools are the same brand/affiliate. I don't know why...I find a tool I like better than any other brand that makes it, and then get it stuck in my head that EVERY tool they make must be better than anything these other brands I looked at makes. I don't know why that is, it's just weird...It works in reverse too. If I use a tool and feel it is a POS, I ultimately avoid that brand for the rest of my life. In reality I know this may not be true, but in my own little world it makes me happy. When I found out DeWalt was owned by B&D, I started to shy away from them...I heard a couple guys talking and they mentioned that BD bought out DeWalt, so those tools are prolly gonna go to shhhhhh...And I jumped right on the bandwagon and felt the same. Then after a bit of research I found that while BD DID buy DeWalt, it was YEARS ago, and so every DeWalt tool I have ever used and fell in love with was infact a BD-DeWalt and came back around to putting them back on their pedestal in my head.

[Will Overton]

Delta does in fact have a bandsaw in their lineup - DELTA 28-206 Professional

They have a number of drill presses. I think only the first one is a PC

http://www.deltaportercable.com/Products/CategoryOverview.aspx?catPath=4272.5148

[Curt Harms]

I don't have a TS yet, but am looking into them. And of course, looking for quality...I don't have room for junk. I have been looking at a bunch of older Delta TS. I am just trying to get a feel for what I need (or would like, etc) as far as versatility in miter cuts and such.

http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/tablesaws/4saw.htm.

Of course there's this:
NO. 4 NORTHFIELD TILTING ARBOR VARIETY SAW (standard) equipped with 5 HP heavy duty 3,600 RPM TEFC
arbor motor – magnetic starter with 110 volt at push button; plain table 35" x 44" – 191/2" rip gauge extension – 32"
rip capacity rack and pinion fence (32" capacity with double face box type fence) two dovetailed 60°-0°-60° mitre
gauges – filler strips – 11/8" arbor standard (1" or 11/4" optional – advise) (16" saw projects 4"; 18" saw 5") metal throat
plate. 16" Lexan guard, Warner electric brake.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .$ 12,960.00
Approximate shipping weight – lbs. 1,800 (2,000 Exp. 92 cu. ft.)

And it doesn't even have a blade brake:rolleyes:

[Eric Wheeler]

Delta does in fact have a bandsaw in their lineup - DELTA 28-206 Professional

They have a number of drill presses. I think only the first one is a PC

http://www.deltaportercable.com/Products/CategoryOverview.aspx?catPath=4272.5148

Ok I checked my wish list file. And it was Band saw and scroll saw, and drill press. The period of time I was browsing their site they must have been updating because there is both a Delta band saw and scroll saw on the site, now; as well as a lineup of drill presses. So PC is officially wiped off of my list, except some really cool things that DeWalt or Delta doesn't make. Like the drywall sander that hooks to a vacuum/DC looks quite appealing, etc. But Dovetail Jig there is only a PC...

[Will Overton]

Nothing worse than an out of date spreadsheet. :D

[Eric Wheeler]

Nothing worse than an out of date spreadsheet. :D


Tell me about it...I am in the process of updating as we speak