Isn't this dangerous on a router table?

[Kevin Gagne]

I was watching this video (http://www.incrementaltools.com/Original_INCRA_Jig_with_1_hour_Instructional_DVD_p/ij32.htm) and noticed that after the cut is made with the router bit he pulls it back through in the opposite direction. Isn't this a dangerous practice? If it is slightly off when pulling it back through and the router bits catches it could it send the piece flying or ruin the piece?

[Bruce Page]

I haven't have any problems doing it. I get an improved surface finish. I do pay attention that I am up against the fence in both directions.

[Myk Rian]

It isn't something I do, but that doesn't mean it's wrong.
I can see where it would clean out the cut, as often it gets packed with sawdust.
The way I do it is to feed it back through right to left.
By the way, the Incra jig is a really accurate way to do those cuts. I love mine.

[Rod Sheridan]

You are esentially making a climb cut with very little cut.

I wouldn't do it, if it grabs, it could be ejected, or the bit may be bent.

It is very risky as the end is passing the fence opening, if the work piece is small enough to rotate into the opening.

Regards, Rod.

[Van Huskey]

You are esentially making a climb cut with very little cut.

I wouldn't do it, if it grabs, it could be ejected, or the bit may be bent.

It is very risky as the end is passing the fence opening, if the work piece is small enough to rotate into the opening.

Regards, Rod.


I agree. I have seen people do it but if there is no good reason it is just a poor work habit that can bite you.

[Bob Wingard]

i would agree that it may not be dangerous, but it has the potential of being so, and that, in itself, is dangerous.

If you were to apply more or less pressure on the climb cut than you did in the traditional cut, it COULD cause a kickback. I just don't like to run my stock past the cutter more than once. It can only make the fit of the joint sloppier, AND, it increases the wear on the cutter, if only slightly.

If all he's trying to do is to clear out the chips, that's a pretty poor method.

[Gordon Eyre]

Personally if I wanted to clean out the cut I would remove the piece and run it through again. I think it would be poor practice to pull it back.

[Gerry Grzadzinski]

Only a matter of time before the bit throws that part out from under your hands, leaving you pushing down toward the spinning bit.

[glenn bradley]

I avoid it and he certainly could but, then it wouldn't look so quick and easy. Demonstrating a product inviolves a bit of showmanship. Picking up the piece and returning it to the start position would interrupt the rythym of the demo and of course he's done it a thousand times so there is some comfort there.

[Joe Chritz]

Climb cutting is always a bad idea without a feeder on a table mounted setup.

You can get away with a very light climb cut by hand in some situations. Specifically a dovetail jig.

Maybe you do it 1000 times without trouble, maybe once.

Joe

[Steve Wurster]

The Incra instructions are full of climb cuts. When they have you cut the outside portion (left side when looking from the operator's perspective), you are pushing a piece that is trapped between the bit and the fence. This could fly off and bring your hands in contact with the bit. In this case the return pull cut is actually a regular cut.

This can be even more dangerous when doing dovetail cuts using the Incra technique, since in that case the piece is on its end and you are just pushing the piece through using a simple sled. For the outer cuts they do instruct that you take small left-to-right cuts since that cuts down on tearout, but for that left side it's still a climb cut. I've had the sled slide on me when using that technique.

You can avoid this push-style climb cut by flipping the pieces horizontally and only cutting those outer edges when they are against the fence. That requires extra moves and clamping (when using the sled), but it certainly seems safer.

-Steve

[Will Overton]

I've been doing it that way since I got my first router table about 20 years ago. It is a very common practice and does give a smoother cut than running a piece through twice in the same direction.

I do not recommend it for anyone who would feels uncomfortable with the procedure. Using any power tool in a way that causes you stress is dangerous.

[Joe Chritz]

Two quick points.

Because something has been done someway for eons doesn't make it safe or good. You need objective numbers on number of incidents, etc and those are hard to find.

This is a hobby full of risk. The term we all need to be familiar with is calculated risk.

Done under the right conditions with a solid head you can reduce the risk substantially.

Joe

[Thomas Bennett]

I watched the video and was also astonished the demonstrator was backing his peice out like that. I always go completely through and , as others have stated, send it through again if it needs cleaned up. It seems to me that by backing the peice through, you might cut into the side of you previous cut, making the cut sloppy. If I'm doing a plough cut, groove, whatever you want to call it, and the cut is bunching up with sawdust and chips, I return to the tablesaw and run a small kerf down the center of the intended groove.

[Chip Lindley]

The Video is performed by a Professional. Don't try this at home! The heavy-handed, novice cannot do what the deft, journeyman can!

Reverse/climb cuts should be attempted only with proper featherboards or other hold-downs indicated for that particular operation. Just a matter of time until success turns into an accident.

[Joe Chritz]

. If I'm doing a plough cut, groove, whatever you want to call it, and the cut is bunching up with sawdust and chips, I return to the tablesaw and run a small kerf down the center of the intended groove.

A cut that is fully buried (i.e. a groove) is cutting both on the regular and climb cut and can generally be fed either direction. Directional forces and snarf in the waste can make the router do some weird stuff though.

Joe

[Will Overton]

The Video is performed by a Professional. Don't try this at home! The heavy-handed, novice cannot do what the deft, journeyman can!

Reverse/climb cuts should be attempted only with proper featherboards or other hold-downs indicated for that particular operation. Just a matter of time until success turns into an accident.

There is a big difference between 'making' a climb cut and 'cleaning up' a cut that was aready made.

[Thomas Bennett]

A cut that is fully buried (i.e. a groove) is cutting both on the regular and climb cut and can generally be fed either direction. Directional forces and snarf in the waste can make the router do some weird stuff though.

Joe



Joe, at first I didn’t get your meaning. I think I got it, though. If the bit travels in counter-clockwise rotation and forces the work piece against the fence it should work feeding it in either way. The bit is still forcing the wood against the fence. Is this your point?
Still folks, I wouldn’t do it.

[Mike Cutler]

Okay, I'm going to admit it. I do it all the time. I would venture to say that almost every router edge treatment I do to an edge, finishes up bringing the bit back in the opposite direction.
I've been doing it since 1972, and it was actually the way I was taught.

I also utilize "climb cutting" quite often. For some difficult to work woods, and especially if there is a curve, or radius involved, I'll finish with a light climb cut, following the traditional movement of the router.


Now if you stick the untreated edge of a board into a climb cut from the get go by hand. You won't do it very many times.:eek:

[Bruce Page]

Okay, I'm going to admit it. I do it all the time. I would venture to say that almost every router edge treatment I do to an edge, finishes up bringing the bit back in the opposite direction.
I've been doing it since 1972, and it was actually the way I was taught.

I also utilize "climb cutting" quite often. For some difficult to work woods, and especially if there is a curve, or radius involved, I'll finish with a light climb cut, following the traditional movement of the router.


Now if you stick the untreated edge of a board into a climb cut from the get go by hand. You won't do it very many times.:eek:

Thanks Mike. At least I am not the ONLY one. ;)
Like you mentioned, climb cutting a raw edge would get very exciting but kissing off a few thousandth of an inch is just not a big deal. I have been doing it as long as you, maybe longer, and I have never had a problem.

[Peter Quinn]

I was climb cutting today with a hand held router. I'm still alive. If the cuts are small and the operator is aware of the forces involved its a pretty benign situation. If you aren't comfortable climb cutting, don't. And don't ever do it freehand on a shaper. Different animal.

Climb cutting ALWAYS creates a fuzzier surface finish than regular feed. So after I climb cut I went back over the surface in the standard rotation. A little fuzz is better than having the bit grab a chunk of wood and rip it off as would have happened on the work I was doing, and its easy to get rid of.

In that video they are making a dado. A router dado ALWAYS involves a climb cut. Sorry to tell the safety police, but if you have ever made a dado with a router at least one edge of the dado was climb cut. Draw your self a quick diagram to see what is happening. So at least one edge is fuzzy, and at least one edge will benefit from being rerun BACKWARDS. Could this get weird if you rotate off the fence? Sure, but running a router dado FORWARD is going to get weird if you rotate off the fence too. Doing stupid things with wood working machines often results in bad results.

Sorry safety police, but I call FALSE ARREST!

[Karl Card]

I haven't have any problems doing it. I get an improved surface finish. I do pay attention that I am up against the fence in both directions.

better finish is what i have noticed also.

[Cody Colston]

I do it all the time, usually when routing stopped grooves/dados to get the sawdust out. I don't consider it unsafe.

[Don Morris]

In my book it's a climb cut and that's a NO NO...Period.

[Mike Cutler]

In my book it's a climb cut and that's a NO NO...Period.

Don
I respect your opinion and wouldn't advise you to use climb cutting as a technique.
Right, or wrong, using a climb cutting technique as a finish to a routered edge was taught to me in the 8th grade, when I was 12. I use it when routing by hand,and on a table.

If any person finds themselves uncomfortable with whatever they're about to do, they should stop. There is no amount of wood worth a persons safety.

[Don Morris]

Mike,

The question was "isn't this dangerous on a router", not hand or table. On a router a climb cut is dangerous.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Thanks Mike. At least I am not the ONLY one. ;)
Like you mentioned, climb cutting a raw edge would get very exciting but kissing off a few thousandth of an inch is just not a big deal. I have been doing it as long as you, maybe longer, and I have never had a problem.

me too. Climb-cutting is NBD if it is a light pass. I don't have a formal router table, but have a variety of "make-your-own" I slap together for a paritcular [usually wierd] task - final pass often climb cut, but most of my router work is hand-held. And - to be honest, when using a small dia round-over bit on edges, I always climb cut - mainly because this is likely the last operation, and I don't want any tearout any where. Firm grip, and focus.

[Zach England]

I just flip the "reverse" switch on my router.

[Rod Sheridan]

I just flip the "reverse" switch on my router.

Wise guy:D

Regards, Rod

[Joe Chritz]

Joe, at first I didn’t get your meaning. I think I got it, though. If the bit travels in counter-clockwise rotation and forces the work piece against the fence it should work feeding it in either way. The bit is still forcing the wood against the fence. Is this your point?
Still folks, I wouldn’t do it.

I think it was clarified already but essentially the way the bit rotates one side is cutting in a regular cut and the opposite is climb cutting. It is a function of a round bit spinning as it is fully engaged in the wood. If that groove is now an edge you either have a climb cut or regular cut depending on direction of travel.

P.S. I utilize a climb cut when necessary, router cut dovetails use them on every piece. Just because I do it and have for a long time doesn't make it safe. Calculated risk and all that. You can reduce the chances for injury by being careful.

Joe