Furniture Grade Pine

[Tony Joyce]

Furniture Grade Pine is:

Clear or Knotty?

Meaning if you called a lumber supplier and specified "Furniture Grade Pine" , What would you expect to receive?

Thanks!

[glenn bradley]

Either as desired. I am, of course, not talking about BORG pine in either case. I have a knotty pine dresser and foot locker and a clear pine entertainment stand. All pieces are yellow pine in color and seem to blend OK. that being said I plan to replace all of that with some walnut units.

[Don Selke]

If I was going to use pine for furniture, I would like it to have some knots for character. If I want it to look plain, I would just use plastic laminate, over cheap plywood.

[Jamie Buxton]

If I asked my suppliers for "furniture grade pine", I'd get either a laugh or a "hunh?"

Most pine is soft enough that it will dent and scratch easily. That is, the furniture is going to look rustic very soon after it leaves the shop, no matter what you do there. And if it is going to be rustic, it doesn't matter much whether it has knots or not.

[Jeff Monson]

I dont make too much from pine, but I'd have to say it would be the same as any wood, the better the grade the fewer the knots. The select pine at the borgs is much more clear than economy grade.

[Tony Joyce]

Apparently by the poll results, there is some misunderstanding about this.

First this appears to be a regional thing and a misnomer to most. I am on the east coast and in this region -southern Virgina, North Carolina, South Carolina(& maybe a wider spread area) - it refers to Knotty Eastern Pine that has small sound knots. Making it suitable for furniture of which tons of it was made in the hayday of furniture manufacturing here in this region.

This is a quote I found online.

"Large furniture manufacturers use much of the harvested Eastern white pine. Furniture makers purchase the furniture grade of white pine, which is also known as the knotty grade (not red). The Northeastern Lumber Manufacturers Association (NeLMA) lists the furniture grades of Eastern white pine as No. 1A and No. 2A."

and another

"White Pine - Furniture Grade - This is mill run stock with the selects and industrial pulled out. Sometimes called antique white pine. It contains mostly solid, sound, tight knots, suitable for use in Early American style cabinets and furniture."

[Tony Joyce]

The select pine at the borgs is much more clear than economy grade.

Rightly so "Select grade" is better than economy.

[Tony Bilello]

The only 'furniture grade' pine I ever saw for sale was a sugar pine. It was fairly expensive, like almost twice the price of red oak.

[Tony Joyce]

The only 'furniture grade' pine I ever saw for sale was a sugar pine. It was fairly expensive, like almost twice the price of red oak.

Several years ago I used to buy "moulding grade pine", which was a sugar or pondrosa pine from the west coast. Twenty years ago it was way more than walnut or cherry or even mahogany. Moulding grade was mostly clear with an occasional knot and some wane edges. It would yield long clear pieces, hence "moulding grade". I believe most if not all "Sugar & Pondrosa Pine" are west coast products. I am shocked to find most people think "furniture grade pine" is clear. Also surprising 247 looks and only 28 opinions.

[Peter Quinn]

I'm not sure "furniture grade" is an actual accepted grade from any grading agency I have seen. It seems more likely a local or regional or perhaps even yard specific term? Knots or not is a pretty subjective assessment. If you called the local yard where I get lumber and asked for furniture grade pine, I'm pretty sure you would get a resounding "Huh? What exactly are you looking for?"

[John Coloccia]

I'm not sure "furniture grade" is an actual accepted grade from any grading agency I have seen. It seems more likely a local or regional or perhaps even yard specific term? Knots or not is a pretty subjective assessment. If you called the local yard where I get lumber and asked for furniture grade pine, I'm pretty sure you would get a resounding "Huh? What exactly are you looking for?"

That's kind of what I was thinking too. Official or not, I'm not familiar with the term but I certainly wouldn't have assumed it was clear. I would just have assumed it doesn't have any big knots that are ready to fall out, i.e. it's possible to make structurally sound furniture. If it were truly select/clear pine, they would just say so because that's the most expensive anyhow. There's no reason to give what's commonly understood to be "best" any other name.

[Tony Joyce]

I'm not sure "furniture grade" is an actual accepted grade from any grading agency I have seen. It seems more likely a local or regional or perhaps even yard specific term? Knots or not is a pretty subjective assessment. If you called the local yard where I get lumber and asked for furniture grade pine, I'm pretty sure you would get a resounding "Huh? What exactly are you looking for?"

Peter,
Northeastern Lumber Manufacturers Association (http://www.nelma.org/files/File/grb%204.pdf)
Section 8.1 (page 13)

It does appear to be regional though. I can call anyone of several brokers or mills and order "furniture grade pine" and know exactly what I'll get.

I'm pretty sure the "Huh? What exactly are you looking for?" is partly similar to what happen with us today. Needing to know exactly what the customer was looking for.

[Steve Schoene]

I'll agree that "furniture grade" is pretty much a meaningless term, though generally I'd expect it to be more or less equivalent to C Select rather than one of the common grades. Just as in hardwoods where FAS doesn't mean NO defects for the entire board, Select grading allows defects including small knots, but limits the number significantly, so that the overall effect is clear.

Just ordering "furniture grade" really doesn't say much, just as ordering "cabinet grade" plywood doesn't either, when what you really should be saying is terms from specific grading standards. Of course, a seller should be asking what you mean when customers specify using non-official terminology.

[Peter Quinn]

Peter,
Northeastern Lumber Manufacturers Association (http://www.nelma.org/files/File/grb%204.pdf)
Section 8.1 (page 13)

It does appear to be regional though. I can call anyone of several brokers or mills and order "furniture grade pine" and know exactly what I'll get.

I'm pretty sure the "Huh? What exactly are you looking for?" is partly similar to what happen with us today. Needing to know exactly what the customer was looking for.

So there you have it, I'm wrong again! Thanks for that link Tony. I live and work in the northeast, I work for a business that has a decent sized lumber yard as part of its operation, and I had no idea there was a "furniture grade" pine. We deal mostly in hardwoods, and I'm no expert on "obscure grading rules" there either. Its good to learn something every day.

The specification sure does define the product in a way most people should be able to agree on, though it reads to me more like a commodity sold to low end furniture manufacturers. 3"X2'minimum board sizes with at least one stable knot per length? If I were writing a grading book I'd list that under "Culls and other junk for sale" not"Special board grades.

I'd I've heard the terms "cabinet grade", "furniture grade" and "instrument grade" applied to both lumber and sheet goods before but not seen any specific standards written for them. Instrument woods seem to have there own grading system, though it seems very subjective on the part of the seller.

In any event I've only dealt with the public a bit, and where I work most of the customers are very knowledgable and curteous, or at least very curteous. But there is always some "pepper" on the soup so to speak, and often those are the ones you remember. Like the guy who insists he wants "Rough sawn S4S poplar" and was told we had that, or the one who buys a slab of 16/4 mahogany for a mantle, 15"X10', has it milled, then tries to argue to 7 different cabinet makers with over 145 years combined experience that a slight mineral streak on one face is a crack and wants a refund! Or the one who simply can't understand why we don't stock 2X framing lumber like the big orange store up the road. Or the one who brings back formerly rough sawn FAS lumber that he has planned to 5/8", cut into small parts, but didn't see some end checks and now wants a refund on the lot so he can build his whole "piece" from one piece of lumber! Precious.

[Tony Joyce]

So there you have it, I'm wrong again! Thanks for that link Tony. I live and work in the northeast, I work for a business that has a decent sized lumber yard as part of its operation, and I had no idea there was a "furniture grade" pine. We deal mostly in hardwoods, and I'm no expert on "obscure grading rules" there either. Its good to learn something every day.

The specification sure does define the product in a way most people should be able to agree on, though it reads to me more like a commodity sold to low end furniture manufacturers. 3"X2'minimum board sizes with at least one stable knot per length? If I were writing a grading book I'd list that under "Culls and other junk for sale" not"Special board grades.

I'd I've heard the terms "cabinet grade", "furniture grade" and "instrument grade" applied to both lumber and sheet goods before but not seen any specific standards written for them. Instrument woods seem to have there own grading system, though it seems very subjective on the part of the seller.

In any event I've only dealt with the public a bit, and where I work most of the customers are very knowledgable and curteous, or at least very curteous. But there is always some "pepper" on the soup so to speak, and often those are the ones you remember. Like the guy who insists he wants "Rough sawn S4S poplar" and was told we had that, or the one who buys a slab of 16/4 mahogany for a mantle, 15"X10', has it milled, then tries to argue to 7 different cabinet makers with over 145 years combined experience that a slight mineral streak on one face is a crack and wants a refund! Or the one who simply can't understand why we don't stock 2X framing lumber like the big orange store up the road. Or the one who brings back formerly rough sawn FAS lumber that he has planned to 5/8", cut into small parts, but didn't see some end checks and now wants a refund on the lot so he can build his whole "piece" from one piece of lumber! Precious.

Peter,
What I thought after 38 years was a common term, does indeed seem to be an "obscure grade". I agree with you about the vauge terms sometimes used to describe lumber and plywood. I guess this shows that we do have to ascertain exactly what the customer wants, to the extent they will allow us.

I see some of your customer have been coming to us and vice versa. This dialog is all good. My hope is it will help someone have a better experience. Thanks for your input.

[Tony Joyce]

I'll agree that "furniture grade" is pretty much a meaningless term, though generally I'd expect it to be more or less equivalent to C Select rather than one of the common grades. Just as in hardwoods where FAS doesn't mean NO defects for the entire board, Select grading allows defects including small knots, but limits the number significantly, so that the overall effect is clear.

Just ordering "furniture grade" really doesn't say much, just as ordering "cabinet grade" plywood doesn't either, when what you really should be saying is terms from specific grading standards. Of course, a seller should be asking what you mean when customers specify using non-official terminology.

In the case of "Furniture Grade Pine" it is an official grade set by the "Northeast Lumber Manufacturers Association" (see other post for link) It just seems to be used as a generic definition by most to mean clear (wrongly so). But armed with this new information from readers feedback, it's not likely to happen here again.

I agree furniture grade, cabinet grade, instrument grade are all too vague a term to be used.

[Steve Griffin]

I use the term "furniture grade" frequently with my customers. I explain that I cannot use "lumber yard pine", as it is often not dried well and comes too thin to flatten out any warps or bows. I explain that I use either knotty or clear white pine from my hardwood suppliers. So for me, it's simply a helpful term to use in conversation with clients.

-Steve

BTW, I can't think of the last time I used clear pine. If I ever ordered using the "furniture grade" pine term, I'd expect it to have knots.

[Paul Ryan]

Forgive me if I am not following the flow of the thread I didn't read most of it. But I prefer knotty, but it is up to you. My local yards sell both but I dont think they call any of it furniture grade. And the select boards at the BORG's are a pain in the rear to build anything with. They are warped, planed goofy to say the least, pron to cracking, and in general crap. The premium boards are expensive almost the cost of hard wood. So it depends what you are going for. My time is worth something to me, and it takes forever to find good boards at my BORGS in the select pile. And I wont pay the prices they get for their premium.

[george wilson]

Williamsburg used to use a very high grade of soft white pine for a lot of things in the maintenance department. It was nearly completely free of knots,and cost as much as maple at the time. they now use the correct Southern yellow pine,gotten from demolished old buildings,roller coasters,etc.. It is mostly heart pine,and VERY expensive.

I went to an auction of a commercial cabinet shop that was closing out in the 80's. They were using a lot of the same pine. They auctioned off a bunch of LONG planks,and they went for high prices.

In a tractor trailer body that was used as a receptacle for their dust collector was a big pile of the same pine in lengths from 7' to 3'. I made 1 bid of $35.00,and GOT IT ALL. I couldn't believe that no one else bid. I mean,what do you make out of 16' boards anyway?

When I got it home,I counted the board footage at the current going price,and found that I had $6000.00 worth of prime pine.

Since then,I've made several shelves and some furniture from it. I still have a lot stored in my basement.

It's not for sale!!

[Frank Drew]

The only pine I've seen that I'd consider suitable for high quality furniture is the reclaimed Southeastern forest longleaf yellow pine that George mentions; around here we call it Old Pine, or Heart Pine. It can have an occasional knot or two, but it in no way resembles Knotty Pine. The best stuff is really special, and priced that way.

Moulding grade white pine is fine for painted millwork since it machines so nicely, but I don't consider it a much of a furniture wood.