need hardwood 4x4's?

[Will Blick]

Here in the Sothwest... what are options for buying 10 ft 4x4 posts in something harder than cedar, Redwood and Fir? Can't seem to find anything but those 3... HELP!

I need the harder wood as I am hanging some VERY heavy doors from the posts and don't trust the firs screw holding capacity. Of course, compressive loads are rarely ever a problem.... Interior project.

Too hard to make'em from thinner boards, as the number of clamps is crazy to reach 100 psi presure... you need a penumatic press.

[Doug Shepard]

If you have a place near you that sells decking material you may be able to pick up Ipe 4x4's. It's about the hardest stuff I've worked with and the 4x4's weren't all that bad pricewise compared to other stuff I priced at the time IIRC.

[Pete Bradley]

Have you considered inserts with machine screws? I used a few years ago on a door that pulled the wood screws out of softwood due to very heavy use. Still holding almost 20 years later. If you try it be caerful to line up the inserts very exactly. Mark carefully, drill a small hole first for the big drill to follow so it doesn't walk.

Pete

[Steve Jenkins]

You might try going to a hardwood supplier and see if they have any 16/4 lumber then make your own.

[Henry Ambrose]

Glue them up. They'll be straighter than a solid timber after you joint and plane them and stay straighter in use. Use C clamps to glue up, that'll give plenty of pressure. What makes you think you can't glue them?

There's also SYP southern yellow pine if you can get that where you are. Its tough, strong and holds screws real well. But it does move some as it dries. So does most anything else which is why laminating your pieces will make a better job. Nothing like hanging doors and then having the framing lumber move, twist, swell, shrink, etc.

Otherwise you can use longer screws, can't you? You could also "bed" the screw using epoxy but that'd be lots of trouble.

[Andrew Nemeth]

You could rip a microlam beam down. If it's stain grade, veneer with your choice of wood.

[Will Blick]

No 16/4 I could find that is reasonably priced... most places claim its too hard to dry. (I guess in the hardwood species, certainly not fir) The best I could get was 8/4, and price is very high, about $9 bf for maple, vs. $3 bf for 3/4" maple. I need 150 bf.

Southern Yellow Pine is quite soft on the janka scale. In addition, its VERY costly to ship out here..so not a good choice. It's not the length of the screws that bothers me, its the proximity of the screws to the edge of the beams which bothers me. This is why inserts bring me no more comfort (but a very good suggestion in most cases)

I hate to run a science experiment to see if fir can hold, I have my doubts, these storage doors loaded up can be 400 lbs...I am using 200 lb spring loaded casters to reduce the load, but don't want to count on them 100% as they might fail. Instead, I am hoping they reduce the load on the ball bearing hinges so the doors do not wear down the hinges and begin to cock the door over time. Of course another lesson learned is, its hard to find a hinge that has a load rating. argggg... I am using 5 heavy duty BB hinges per door.

IPE would be awesome, but I can't find it in post sizes...

My problem with gluing 3/4 or 1" boards is...... its another point of potential failure. I spoke to Titebond, they suggested min. 100 psi for this glue up, preferably 200 psi. This will assure a strong bond not only now, but over time. A parallel clamp produces about 600 lbs of pressure over 4 sq inches of face area, so about 150 psi. So one clamp is sufficient for the area its jaw covers, which means you need a clamp nearly every 1.5" - over 12ft long... huge clamp investment. So I prefer not to gamble on this one, I like mother natures bond better :-)

microlam...hmmm, I heard of it, but had to google it...interesting, never used it b4....who stocks this? looks interesting, sort of like engineered lumber, assembled like ply?..... Stain or paint grade is fine, its a storage center, so appearance is not of great significance... can you tell me more? Have you used it?

[Andrew Nemeth]

I have used microlam beams several times. It is an engineered wood product and as you said, is essentially plywood. They have significantly less deflection than a comparably sized SFP or SYP header or beam. I don't have any direct evidence that they would hold a screw any better than solid wood but my intuition tells me if you screwed through the face of the beam, perpendicular to the plys, it would hold as well or better than most hardwoods. Most lumberyards supplying the homebuilding industry around my area stock them.

For what it's worth, I would probably use cross dowels in the 4x4 and machine screws to hang the doors. You could possibly get away with SPF or SYP 4x4s, it would probably be less expensive and easier than the microlam.

Good luck,
Andrew

[Eiji Fuller]

epoxy glue

[Joe Chritz]

This is for a particular screw company but gives a good comparison.

I think you are over thinking the problem and with that many screws and hinges the actual load on any particular one will be low. 400 pounds over 5 hinges is 80 pounds per hinge.

Check out the screw pull out table.

http://www.screw-products.com/specs.htm

Joe

[Gary Herrmann]

Will, you may be overthinking the need for clamping pressure. Other than a bent lamination with a tight radius, I can't think of anything that would need a parallel clamp every 1.5" over 12 feet.

[Chuck Werts]

Maybe a pivot hinge?

http://extranet.assaabloydss.com/library/catalogs/RIXSON/pdf/6-Pivots_and_Pivot_Sets.pdf

Maybe you could get some tubular steel from a scrap yard and wrap that for a post.

[Henry Ambrose]

Cauls placed over the glue-up will spread the pressure. Need too many clamps to do this? You always need more clamps. Buy some clamps.

The cross dowels is a great idea for screw holding - cheap and easy too.

I think long screws will do the job, though.

[Jason White]

Southern yellow pine, perhaps?



Here in the Sothwest... what are options for buying 10 ft 4x4 posts in something harder than cedar, Redwood and Fir? Can't seem to find anything but those 3... HELP! I need the harder wood as I am hanging some VERY heavy doors from the posts and don't trust the firs screw holding capacity. Of course, compressive loads are rarely ever a problem.... Interior project. Too hard to make'em from thinner boards, as the number of clamps is crazy to reach 100 psi presure... you need a penumatic press.

[Will Blick]

Thanks guys, I appreciate the input...

update...

Microlams - not enough volume for them to justify engineering what would should be used. nothing off-the-shelf in this size... great suggestion, I may consider this in the future

Glue up - To spend $800 for the wood, and not follow what the glue engineers suggest, the glue bottle suggest, and the USDA wood manual suggest...too risky. Sure it will hold for now, maybe in a few years the stress will start pulling the joint apart? dunno, but too risky...

Cauls? Cauls are for theo opposite type of glue up, where you have lots of surface area and want to use a few clamps. Here I have a ton of surface area, barely enough room to house the parallel clamps... to meet the 200 psi reccomendation, I would need 10 parallel clamps per ft, x 12 ft = 120 clamps...I can't justify buying that many clamps :-)


Good Pivot hinges.... Joe, this was my first idea, but for good load rated hinges like the ones your link showed (commercial quality, mostly for metal doors), about $450 per door x 4 doors. That got a bit costly for this project, hence why I tried to move to hardwood posts with conventional hinges, but now that back-fired, even more costly.

BTW, my concern was not with screw pull-out, it was the proximity of the screw towards the end of the post.... under stress, I was concerned of the post blowing out.

SYP, more costly than Red Oak I quoted above.... amazing, huh... all shipping... the lesson learned here is, most of hardwood cost is in the shipping if its not harvested locally... so use what is grown local :-) This was one hell of a lesson...

Best price so far is Red Oak at $180 each with freight, Maple, Walnut way higher... crazy.... Same 12 footer in Fir, Cedar, Redwood ~ $18

Cross dowels - yep, you are on the right track here.... but instead of trying to drill the holes accurately and align the dowels, AND the risk of hoggin-out a lot of structual wood, its probably safer to drill straight through and put a nut on the other end....recess it if I need to. (it is accessible, not a conventional door) This might be the solution to use the dirt cheap fir posts.

The cross dowels made me think of some other areas I can use them for re inforcement..... does anyone make them with longer dowels? Most of the ones I see have short dowels.... need to go search that one down...

thanks again guys...

[Thomas love]

Wiil , Are the posts freestanding or are they set in a rough opening, I am not getting why you need a 4x4?. 8/4 oak should work just fine as a jamb, assuming it is securely fastened to the surrounding structure.

Do the doors have a substantial hinge side style? IMO this is where you should find the rigidity that keeps the jamb straight, along with the the correct size screws and hinges properly placed I do not see the concern of the hinge loads blowing out the posts.



How are these doors constructed and what are the jambs going to be attached to ?

tom.

[Will Blick]

Good question Thomas....it's a basically a free standing structure attached to a wall in the back. So we are building the carcass with 4x4's and Simpson ties. There will be some heavy top loading also, so my buddy who I am building for, did not want to gamble with 2x's, specially cause people will stand atop the structure and some heavy storage. I agreed, why risk it. So that is how the 4x's came into play... surely the fir has more than enough compression strength, but its the shear and lateral stress the doors create that concerned us.

The 4x's jams housing the hinges will be bolted into the cement on the bottom using Titan post anchors, and Simpson brackets attaching it to the top header. I will also put a 1" diam. dowel through the top 4x header into the jam 4x. Here is the Titan post achors we plan to use, i.e. to mount the 4x's to the concrete....

http://www.deckbuilderoutlet.com/images/4x4-post-anchor-kit-black-bolts.jpg


http://www.deckbuilderoutlet.com/images/titana1.gif

[Michael Arruda]

Will,

1- Why are you dead set on using wood? If you're that worried about it, instead of balking at the price of hardwoods, which, admittedly, is stupid high right now- why not get a couple Steel beams? Get some 4x4 tubular steel stock, drill through, mount your hinges, through bolt to the rest of the framing, and Bob's your uncle.

2- Titebond glue works for many things... structural engineering is not one of them. Use a real glue, like an epoxy or Weldwood, something of that sort.

3- If you're doing a glue up, don't use Titebond.

4- No, really, not Titebond. Something better.

-Michael

PS- Another option- use construction grade wood, route out the front and back sides and inlay a couple strips of steel where the hinges are going. Epoxy the steel in place, predrill and offset screw it as well. Long machine screws through the 4x, in one steel and out the other. For the hinge to pull out, the whole column would have to explode and splinter into a big mess. Not likely. How much weight are we talking here, and what's the height and width of the doors?

[Will Blick]

Michael, excellent points....

For starters, I think I fell into the old adage...

"give a carpenter a problem, he fixes it with a hammer"

"give a surgeon a problem, he fixes it with a scappel"

My head was into wood. But, you are soo right.... the jams (holding the hinges can be in metal), A real case of not seeing the forrest through the trees :-)

Just checked the price of 4x4 metal tubes at 8ft lengths - $200 each + shipping... but in this case, 3" square can be used for the door supports, $100 each... not a bad option...

But after last nights response, I got the same "hybrid" idea you posted today... which is probably the simplest and most cost effective... a mix of construction grade lumber joined with 3/4" Maple on front and back sides where the hinges are mounted. You suggested metal, which is even stronger, but way overkill.... just a little maple will provide the added security.... I was just looking for a little added safety margin. As you suggest, the entire beam would have to explode with the sandwhich approach, no way....... this is simple and effective...

OK, so would you suggest an epoxy to join the Maple to the construction grade lumber? I never used epoxies b4 for wood joinery. I also will give-up on clamp pressure, instead I will use some T nuts, which apply enough clamp pressure and remain in place, ... another no brainer...

http://img2.fastenal.com/productimages/1137962.jpg


BTW, the doors are storage doors, and will be about 450 lbs avg weight when loaded. The spring loaded caster will remove about 200 lbs of the weight... (but they could potentially fail) the doors are about 40" wide, 8ft tall. The range from close to full open is 90 deg.

When you do a certain type of woodworking, we tend to think inside the box were in.... at least that is what happened to me on this project... argggg... thanks...

[Michael Arruda]

Titebond is a good glue for certain things- structural carpentry is not one of them. I don't want to get into a glue debate with anyone, so, usual disclaimer- this is my opinion, don't get your panties in a bunch, etc.

If the titebond is going to be exposed to any type of weather or climate extremes- 100* summers, 10* winters, etc- it WILL fail. It's a matter of time- depending on what Titebond you use. In my experience it just doesn't hold up to these kinds of things very well. The glue gets too brittle and you have delamination. Could be 3 years, could be 30- no promise there, but I'd rather trust something that is guaranteed to be there and holding long after I'm gone.

It's a bit more difficult, but I'd suggest an epoxy. West system is trusted by boat builders more than any other- I would heed the suggestions of builders that trust the adhesive not to fail 500 miles from shore. :) I'm sure others have much more experience with this than me, but I've never seen West System fail like I have Titebond.

One more note- I'm sure you already know this, but remember to offset your through bolts and T nuts so that they're not all supported on the same axial grain line in the wood. More chance of splitting on that line and giving you the problem you don't want if you don't stagger them. Also, recess the bolt heads into the maple and have them on the "outside" of the beam, facing the door- that way, if you do get any wood movement or issues of that nature, which, with the system you're looking at doing I wouldn't expect, you can open the door to get at the beams and tighten them down a little more snug without having to remove the door.

-Michael

[Scott Velie]

I second the west system advice. It is not advisable to over clamp epoxy you do not want it all to squeeze out. I have seen it in 20 yr old boats and the wood disintegrated except where the epoxy had penetrated (yes it penetrates). The epoxy was undisturbed.

[Will Blick]

Thanks for the Epox tip.... and the staggering T nut confirmation.

Just spoke to West tech support, very good tech support. Just a FYI for those interested....

I described the application, i.e I am making 10 ft fir sandwichs, using Maple bread. He suggested the 655 product, 2 qt = $50, not bad....

Interestingly enough, he claimed the Epoxy for indoor use would not provide any additional strenght vs. the TiteBond. Both would stand the test of time for indoor applications. (vs. outdoor or water application where Epoxy is superior)

However, the benefits of the Epoxy in this application are, longer open time (up to an hour) which is helpful and as suggested above, no clamping pressure required. That is good to know. He even suggested I only slightly tighten the T nuts to prevent squeeze out, as the long open time allows time for the glue to be absorbed in the wood. So be sure you don't squeeze it all out. Interesting. Very different vs. wood glues. He suggested only a few lbs of pressure per sq inch, sure beats 100 - 200 psi for wood glues.


He also suggested coating the end grain to prevent checking over time. Clever... I look forward to trying this glue, I am sure I will start using for other applications as well. Must be great for M&T joints, where its nearly impossible to exert pressure on all the mating surfaces.


Game plan is in place, now just wait till all the bits and wood arrives... its amazing how I can spend more time planning and procuring the components vs. building the project.... oh well...

How bad does this stuff smell? Just basic organic vapor masks will suffice?

[Alan Schwabacher]

Epoxy has a smell, but it's not bad at all. Most epoxies are "100% solids" meaning that all of the liquid epoxy becomes solid without any solvent needing to evaporate. Keep it off your skin. Some people get sensitized to it.

One thing you should note about epoxy is that it will harden, but then continue to get stronger for as much as a week. I would not hang the heavy gate until the glue joints had strengthened. How long that takes depends on the epoxy and the temperature.

Also: pay attention to the mix ratio and to mixing thoroughly. Both are important to bond strength.

[Will Blick]

Interesting about the smell, I was expecting some serious odor :-)

The rep did mention, 50/50, but within 10%... he said it has a very thick consistency (at least the one he suggested for this application). He suggested using a different Tablespoon for each one, as both will grab approx. the same amount. I was surprised there was not a better mixing method...but he said its too thick for tube or dispersing methods.

Thanks for the tip on the waiting period, he did not suggest that, but it makes perfect sense.... why risk it.... I will do those glue ups as soon as I get the bits...

[Henry Ambrose]

The smell is not a problem unless you are in a confined space. I like the blue nitrile gloves for keeping it off my skin. It will be a little messy no matter how neat you are. You will probably epoxy your clothes before this is over. Have a full roll of paper towels right there with you.

More tips:

The squeeze out or run out is something to think about. If you glue up on a floor you just might glue the posts to the floor. Layers of newspaper are your friend here. Butter-up all surfaces, don't just do one side and leave the other to chance. Apply an even coat to minimize waste and mess and to get 100% fill. Use a piece of stiff plastic as a trowel to strike off the squeeze out before its gets rock hard - that's much easier than sanding it off. Or a drywall knife and wipe it off immediately after use. It'll harden way plenty in 24 hours (likely near 90-95% strength) to start working with it.

Where the heck are you? The prices you quote for materials make me want to load up a trailer and bring you some stuff. <grin>

[Will Blick]

Henry, load the truck! I am near Vegas...
The strange thing is, our common size hardwoods are somewhat avg. priced, I paid $3.50 bf for hard maple, 3/4". But once you jump to 8/4 the price goes crazy, like $9 bf.

Good points regarding the squeeze out... can I plane this down after the glue up to have nice flat edges? Or does Epoxy eat-up planer blades?

[Henry Ambrose]

It'll plane, but its much easier to strike it off while its soft.