I've been reading all day about planes

[Joseph D'Orazio]

I spent the day reading about planes. I pretty much understand what they have been saying but there is a lot of information out there on planes, making it daunting to take it all in. I keep coming back to wanting to make a plane purchase but not knowing which one I should get first. I saw one on ebay that has a buy it now price of $14 but dont know if it is what I should get first.

Its listed as a Stanley Bailey #5. It appears to be in decent shape. I should just go ahead and get it huh?

[Don Dorn]

Not sure what your budget is, but I think it would better to buy something ready to go. If you are getting started and have to get into plane fettleing, you won't know if you were successfull or not if the results are not what you expected. Additionally, you will be into tool work instead of wood work which is what you want to do.

Just my opinion of course, but if you can swing a LV bevel up jack plane, it's a very good start. I think that if a person has a smoother, a jack, a jointer and good block plane, you're covered for over 90% of what you would ever need.

I tried the route you speak of and eventually just put the cash down and bought good quality planes and it was a smart move. I'll use them for a couple decades and after I check out, my wife will be able to sell them for much closer to their value than other choices. That said - there are many people here who can turn old stuff into gems. Maybe you have what it takes to be one of them.

[Tony Shea]

I also have to agree with Don. I went down the road you speak of buying some old Stanley's due to budget constraints, and I have a great source of decent quality ones down the road, and ended up spending more time than I ever imagined getting them tuned up in proper working condition. And even after they were in great working condition I don't beleive there is any comparison to my LN planes. I've replaced most of the irons on unsalvagable blades and did a lot of work trueing the frogs and bottoms. Never imagined that truing the bottom of a Jack plane or longer takes so much effort.

Needless to say I also would splurge on a LN or LV Jack plane of some sort if you can swing the funds. There truely IMO is no comparison. I prefer the standard Stanley style bench planes by LN myself but many swear by the bevel up versions.

[Andrew Gibson]

I would say that before you jump in and buy something to rehab and turn into a user you need to have 2 things.
1. The ability to sharpen the tool to a razor sharp edge.
2. The money to put into a new Iron.

If you have the means and the skill to sharpen you are half way there, if you can't get the tool sharp it simply will not work. The new irons from Hock, LV, etc are well worth there cost IMO and will save you a good deal of time trying to get an original cutter to the point you can really get it sharp, then it still won't do as good a job.

I have only this year gotten to the point that I can truly say I can sharpen my tools. I invested in some king water stones and some of the green rough form LV and I finally can get a mirror polish on the backs and create an edge capable of taking a .001" shaving. I have been woodworking for over 10 years.

[Joseph D'Orazio]

Wow yall, that LN and the LV jack plane are expensive, $245 and $215 respectively. I could probably swing one if I had to but then I couldnt afford another plane for quite a while. What about the new Stanley planes, yall dont like them?

Also, I noticed a term used by LV and by that tools reviewer here on the creek, they referred to "shooting". Whats that all about?

[Don Dorn]

Again, just my opinion, but I would spring for the LN or LV and know that you have a top quality plane with a thick iron that already comes flat. You will always have it after the money is forgotten. You can get by quite a while while with a good jack. It's how it got its name "Jack of all trades" - it may not be the plane of choice for some things, but there isn't one that works any better for everything. It's the swiss army knife of planes.

I agree with learning to sharpen next because eventually, it will get dull and even a great plane is worthless if you can't make it sharp. You don't have to get carried away and can start with "scary sharp" using sandpaper. This is a skill you must have - by the time you do, you'll be ready for the next plane which is up for debate, but I think since you would have a good jack, a good block plane would be your next most useful.

Most will tell you not to skimp, and it's good advise. When you're done - you'll have all high quality planes that will last you a lifetime and whoever you pass them to - and you can work wood knowing you have removed the varibable of plane quality. It's said that the most expensive tools are those you have to constantly replace until you end up with the one you should have splurged for in the first place. Good luck.

[Joseph D'Orazio]

Again, just my opinion, but I would spring for the LN or LV and know that you have a top quality plane with a thick iron that already comes flat. You will always have it after the money is forgotten. You can get by quite a while while with a good jack. It's how it got its name "Jack of all trades" - it may not be the plane of choice for some things, but there isn't one that works any better for everything. It's the swiss army knife of planes.

I agree with learning to sharpen next because eventually, it will get dull and even a great plane is worthless if you can't make it sharp. You don't have to get carried away and can start with "scary sharp" using sandpaper. This is a skill you must have - by the time you do, you'll be ready for the next plane which is up for debate, but I think since you would have a good jack, a good block plane would be your next most useful.

Most will tell you not to skimp, and it's good advise. When you're done - you'll have all high quality planes that will last you a lifetime and whoever you pass them to - and you can work wood knowing you have removed the varibable of plane quality. It's said that the most expensive tools are those you have to constantly replace until you end up with the one you should have splurged for in the first place. Good luck.
Alright, I will spring for the LV jack plane. Thats gonna hurt and its also going to kill me on a dovetail jig but I need to learn to plane first huh? Since yall have talked me into the LV what is yalls recommendation for sharpening, please remember that I am already breaking the bank for the plane.

I do want to thank yall for helping me and putting up with my questions. Just to be honest, I will probably pick up the old Stanley number 5 and just put it back for now. Its 14 bucks, seems wrong to pass it up, but I promise not to use it until I can restore it and have a better understanding of planes.

[Sam Takeuchi]

New Stanley, Kunz, Anant, Grizzley or whatever sold at local hardware store aren't even tools at their brand new condition. I don't mean to sound snobbish, but they don't even come out of production line completed. You have to spend hours upon hours to finish whatever they left off, so that in the end, you can have a tool of ok quality at best. So no, I don't recommend them. Besides, when you are starting out, you really don't have any reference to aim for even if you want to start tuning planes, so it's really difficult to really get the best performance out of anything less than optimally tuned or produced. Badly made planes are really useless. They should pay you to keep it. When people joke about them being a door stop or boat anchor, there's good amount of truth to that.

That is not to say you have to buy Veritas or Lie-Nielsen tools. Slightly cheaper option in low to mid $100 range do exist. The newer and quite popular among low-mid market is the WoodRiver planes from Woodcraft. These are made in China, but people report them to be of very good quality, and no tuning up required other than honing the blade. Also another option available is the new Stanley 'Premium' line of planes. I hear their Premium No.4 (model number 12-136) is a very solid and quality plane that should perform well. At least so I have read from some reviews here and there.

Basically if you are looking for a quality plane that should perform without tuning up, $100 ~ $150 for a plane is minimum you should be looking at. But that's just for a plane. You need equipment for sharpening. Sandpaper of different grit sizes on a thick glass (1/2" float glass will do) and probably honing guide ($10 ~ $15) should get you started. At this point, I don't think you need to be concerned about having money for another plane just yet.

By the way, what are you intending to make? Size of plane should reflect the size of your project. No.5 is indeed a good middle of the road size for normally considered woodworking projects, like making furnitures or whatnot, but it'd be too big if you are just thinking about making small boxes. Or if you want to make 6' long workbench, #5 can be too small (though it's not impossible at all).

[James Phillips]

A lot of folks here do not like them, but dollar for dollar you will be hard pressed to beat woodcraft's wood river brand.

[john brenton]

Well, not really, I mean a new veritas or LN plane is an investment that won't go bad unless you bust it up. Even then you'd have about 26 bids on it by the time it sold on e-bay.

I say take the looooooooong road that I am still on before you spring for the expensive tools. Take the journey, find out what you like, find out how the things work and make your mistakes with them. Learn how to rebuild a plane, shape and sharpen the iron, get to know the old tools.

There are only a couple tools that I would really like to have new, like a nice new MATCHING set of bench chisels, but even that is vanity. You can buy a shop full of tools for the price of one of those expensive deals.




Alright, I will spring for the LV jack plane. Thats gonna hurt and its also going to kill me on a dovetail jig but I need to learn to plane first huh? Since yall have talked me into the LV what is yalls recommendation for sharpening, please remember that I am already breaking the bank for the plane.

I do want to thank yall for helping me and putting up with my questions. Just to be honest, I will probably pick up the old Stanley number 5 and just put it back for now. Its 14 bucks, seems wrong to pass it up, but I promise not to use it until I can restore it and have a better understanding of planes.

[Terry Duffin]

LOOOOONG time lurker (since Badger Pond days) and I have gone through your dilema. I learned a boatload refurbing old planes, but they can be rather fickle. I have a type 9 #4 that is really a decent unit ( I don't work much with really challenging wood - just cherry, walnut, oak, etc - this IS important!) Some look great but never seem to perform like others that look rough. I now have a mix of viintage and LN, etc.

It is true - a poorly sharpened plane blade will make you quit the hobby in disgust. Take the time to learn the Scary Sharp method of sharpening for cheap initial outlay. Once you have a plane or two (#4 or #5 and a 60 1/2 block) and learn what a plane can do you will be in a better position to decide which way to go. Size of projects and type of wood will impact the decision.

That being said - There's a Lakeside #5 for $40 on WC classifieds that has been tuned up already. Looks to be in decent condition. No idea who the seller is.

Terry

[Joseph D'Orazio]

LOOOOONG time lurker (since Badger Pond days) and I have gone through your dilema. I learned a boatload refurbing old planes, but they can be rather fickle. I have a type 9 #4 that is really a decent unit ( I don't work much with really challenging wood - just cherry, walnut, oak, etc - this IS important!) Some look great but never seem to perform like others that look rough. I now have a mix of viintage and LN, etc.

It is true - a poorly sharpened plane blade will make you quit the hobby in disgust. Take the time to learn the Scary Sharp method of sharpening for cheap initial outlay. Once you have a plane or two (#4 or #5 and a 60 1/2 block) and learn what a plane can do you will be in a better position to decide which way to go. Size of projects and type of wood will impact the decision.

That being said - There's a Lakeside #5 for $40 on WC classifieds that has been tuned up already. Looks to be in decent condition. No idea who the seller is.

Terry¿WC Classifieds? Where is that?

Thank All of You again for your guidance. There is a lot to be considered and I see opinions vary.

[Don Dorn]

Alright, I will spring for the LV jack plane. Thats gonna hurt and its also going to kill me on a dovetail jig .

What's a dovetail jig?

[Joseph D'Orazio]

Alright, I will spring for the LV jack plane. Thats gonna hurt and its also going to kill me on a dovetail jig . What's a dovetail jig?

This is what I was referring to.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=146444

[Richard Niemiec]

Sharpening is the key skill to learn. A plane is no more than a jig to hold an edge tool, in this case an iron. LV and LN make fine planes, I own more than a few, but for regular bench planes a vintage Stanley or Millers Falls, adjusted properly, works properly. Look for some in good condition and modestly priced and learn how to use them, and sharpen them. YMMV.

[Jacob Mac]

A razor sharp blade makes up for a lot of sins. Both with the plane and the user.


If it were me, I would start with learning sharpening right now. It is an invaluable skill. I floundered a lot before I learned what sharp was. A forum member was nice enough to spend an evening showing me the ropes. After I knew how to get my blades sharp, I became a lot better at using hand tools.

LV and LN are great planes. I have owned/own both, and will surely own a lot more as time moves on. But I also have an old 4 1/2 that works great and I spent $20 on it at a garage sale. With a really sharp blade, my old plane works really well.

So I would start with sharpening, and then experiment with what plane you want. But the truth is if you spend all of your money on a plane and have no means of sharpening the blade, you are not going to have a lot of success.

[Andrew Gibson]

I have that sears DT jig. I got it for Christmas several years ago now. I used it once and have not touched it sense... In fact I would sell it to you for a good price but not without feeling like I riped you off. All you need to cut dovetails is a good saw and a chisel... 2 things you need weather or not you cut dovetails by hand.

"Shooting" is a method of cleaning up the edge of a board after sawing. Search for "Shooting boards" basically a shooting board is a jig that holds your work piece, you take your plane and set it on it's side and run it back and forth to plane a straight clean end on your work piece.

Two of my favorite sites for hand tool info are...
http://logancabinetshoppe.weebly.com/index.html
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/
Both these sited are from guys that are members here.

I agree with the idea of going a bit cheaper on your first plane, and would probably give a wood river a try myself.
as for sharpening, I did the scary sharp method for a good long time and never got truly sharp tools. I recently bought some king water stones and they made a huge difference. For right around $100 I think you could get a setup that you could use to get extremely sharp tools with a very short learning curve, and you won't have to keep buying more paper.

Rather then clutter up your thread with sharpening debated, PM me if you are interested in what I would suggest.

If you can get the #5 for a good price, I would go for it. It will make for a fun project sooner or later.

[Jim Koepke]

A lot of good advice here.

Number one is the ability to sharpen to the keenness of a razor.

I think you may have asked about shooting. Here is a thread on my making of a handle to use a #6 bench plane for shooting.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=1315201#poststop

Shooting is usually squaring a cut on the end grain, but it can also be angled or on the long grain. It uses a shop made fixture, unless you have enough money to buy the Stanley cast iron shooting set up. The plane is held on its side and rides a guide. The work is held solid at the angle desired and the blade cuts off what is not wanted. Very handy for square corners and miters.

If the #5 is still available, looks good for parts, is pre WW I, I would advise getting it if the shipping is in line. The knob and handle and various hardware from a #5 will cost more than that. If it is WW II vintage or later, I would suggest passing on it.

Then again, if you look over in the Neanderthal wisdom,FAQs you will find a few of my posts with explanations of my opinions on such and what to look for when buying an old plane.

jim

[James Scheffler]

I'm surprised by the number of negative responses. The fact is that old planes represent great value. You can do a lot with them, with the caveat that the 45 degree bed angle common to most old planes needs to be compatible with the species of wood you want to use.

I think old vs new comes down to your own money and time resources. If you have a lot of money but not a lot of time, buy one of the new higher-end planes. If you have plenty of time but little money, buy an old Stanley (or equivalent).

Tip: For a quick, relatively cheap upgrade for old Stanleys, check out the thicker cap irons from Hock. They cost around $25.

Jim S.

[Will Boulware]

Here's a thought. (free advice and likely worth what it cost! :D) I'm relatively new to this too. I needed a few handplanes and, like you, didn't want to spend hundreds a single piece on the good stuff. Instead, i waited around on the classifieds here and found a fully fettled Stanley type 10 # 4 from a very kind member who was very helpful in explaining how the thing worked. This gave me a pretty good idea as to how a plane was supposed to behave. After that, I picked up a # 7 in good, but unfettled, condition from another forum member.It basically just needed sharpening. #5's are quite common and I all but got one for free when purchasing some other stuff from a craigslist ad. After observing the other two planes, tuning up the # 5 to usable shape wasn't very difficult at all. Don't get me wrong, it took time, but it was doable. Throw some money at one fully fettled old plane, a good sharpening set up, and fill in your collection from there. It worked for me, so I'm sure the average trained monkey could figure it out.

[John Stankus]

Personally I think the best strategy is to take a class on using hand planes or get hooked into one of the local clubs. Figuring some of this stuff out from a book is doable but you can make a lot more progress with a little bit of mentoring.


John

[Matthew Dunne]

I'm in almost the same boat as the OP, having just launched down the slippery slope.

One hybrid option (in between garage sale and new LN or LV) that has worked for me so far is to buy a used tool conditioned a bit by some else. For example, I bought a #5 from Walt at brass city records and tools, and he had already done some fettling and sharpening, so the thing worked ok right out of the box. Still, much cheaper than a new tool--about $45 I believe.

You/I still need to learn to sharpen, of course, but this keeps you from needing to work on the frog, sole, etc.

[Joseph D'Orazio]

Thank All of Yall for the responses. I do like the nice planes. What I am afraid of is that I will spend tons of money and I wont be any good or I just wont take to the craft. I am fairly certain I will do ok but one never knows for sure until they try it.

I like the class idea and will search for those. I am in my early 40's and wouldnt mind seeing if I could get my father (who gave me the few hand tools he had, he never used them though) to maybe attend with me.
I have very little money but a whole lot of time. I do tractor work and tractor and small engine repair here at my house. I also sell fresh eggs (doing fairly well with that too). I bought and paid for these two properties early on. I do need to rent the house next door though. 4 bedrooms and 5 acres in case yall are interested. I keep the lights and gas on for ya. House is beautiful.

I am really interested in Tables and I would like to make outdoor furniture as well. I really like big dinning room tables though. I have a long way to go.

Yalls willingness to help is inspiring.

[george wilson]

If you have seen the work I did in the FAQ section here,all that work was done with wooden planes. They don't cost a fortune normally,and they work just fine.

[Steve Branam]

That dovetail jig is for use with a router, not for doing them by hand if that's what you want it for (the seller mentions he only used it once and then started doing them by hand). I have a new-in-box-never-opened Porter Cable jig, but then I started doing them by hand. One of these days I guess I should sell it! Probably a few on those on this forum.

[bob blakeborough]

Thank All of Yall for the responses. I do like the nice planes. What I am afraid of is that I will spend tons of money and I wont be any good or I just wont take to the craft. I am fairly certain I will do ok but one never knows for sure until they try it.



In the same boat but I broke down and dropped small used car on 5 LV planes and a bunch of other stuff... My theory after doing a bunch of research is that the really good stuff holds its value quite well, so as long as you haven't thrashed them, if you choose to sell yuour tools later because you just were not that into it or what-have-you, you will get back a pretty substantial portion of your investment. I see used LV/LN stuff sell on e-bay and online other places for damn near what people pay new retail!

[Steve Branam]

And if you have the skills to do tractor and small engine work, you have the skills to get old planes usable! Having time helps, too. I suspect it's often lack of time that prevents people from doing that. If you only get to spend a few hours a week in the shop, you're less inclined to spend them fidgeting around with old beaters and learning how to make them perform. But if you have the time and the patience, that can be very rewarding. Then YOU can become the person people turn to in your area to get them working.

I do like the idea of buying one really good plane so you have a reference to know what the rest should be like. Don't buy a high-end #5/jack plane, buy a high-end #6 or 7 jointer/try plane or #4 smoother. Those are the ones that need to be really good. A jack plane is a coarse tool, you can make the ugliest rustiest wooden jack work if you sharpen it.

[john brenton]

Many people say that certain things are too hard, or really difficult, whatever, but you may be coming into the thing with a whole different set of skills. A mechanic already knows how to use his hands, he just needs to know what he wants them to do.


And if you have the skills to do tractor and small engine work, you have the skills to get old planes usable! Having time helps, too. I suspect it's often lack of time that prevents people from doing that. If you only get to spend a few hours a week in the shop, you're less inclined to spend them fidgeting around with old beaters and learning how to make them perform. But if you have the time and the patience, that can be very rewarding. Then YOU can become the person people turn to in your area to get them working.

I do like the idea of buying one really good plane so you have a reference to know what the rest should be like. Don't buy a high-end #5/jack plane, buy a high-end #6 or 7 jointer/try plane or #4 smoother. Those are the ones that need to be really good. A jack plane is a coarse tool, you can make the ugliest rustiest wooden jack work if you sharpen it.

[Terry Duffin]

the "other" wwing site.

Terry

[Joseph D'Orazio]

Thank You all. I really appreciate your guidance. I've been watching dovetail, mortise and tenon, and planing youtube videos today. Looks like I need a lot of tools.

[Jacob Mac]

Start with a project and go from there. Buying tools is fine, but really I would just get what you need for the task at hand. Plus, with wwing, you can alway stretch and find creative ways to work around not having certain tools.

To follow up on George's point, you can get some really nice wooden planes for really cheap. Even if you buy them new, you can get a smoother and a jack plane from Japan woodworker, and other sites, for about $70. I just got both of those planes and they are really nice. With a sharp blade, they do as well as anything else.

[Joseph D'Orazio]

Start with a project and go from there. Buying tools is fine, but really I would just get what you need for the task at hand. Plus, with wwing, you can alway stretch and find creative ways to work around not having certain tools.

To follow up on George's point, you can get some really nice wooden planes for really cheap. Even if you buy them new, you can get a smoother and a jack plane from Japan woodworker, and other sites, for about $70. I just got both of those planes and they are really nice. With a sharp blade, they do as well as anything else.
I hadnt seen Japan Woodworker yet. Thank You for the tip.

[Tom McMahon]

Just my opinion. In the beginning what you really need is information and education. Put your money into a couple of good classes and you will know what tools you really need.

[anton wilhelm]

Hi, I just wanted to chip in that I started with the lee valley low angle jack and find it to be my least used plane, since then I have acquired the bevel up smoother which I love for planing exotic woods, but I have kindof gone backwards and started fixing up type 11 and older stanleys and have quite an attachment to them. the LAJ is useful for shooting the ends of boards with the equipped blade, but I don't do that process to much, If I am smoothing I want a smoother plane and if jointing edges I want a jointer.. or power jointer and refining with a hand jointer. You will learn much by fixing up old planes, and they won't break the bank and hold up fantastically. I do highly recommend hock blades and chipbreakers though.. also I really don't like ductile iron.. I seem to ding up all my new planes, even when I hit brass bench dogs. I like the old stanley cast iron, it is hard stuff and I haven't dropped them to break them yet...neither have any of the other owners in the last 100 years... anyone agree with me?

[Jim Koepke]

Hi, I just wanted to chip in that I started with the lee valley low angle jack and find it to be my least used plane, since then I have acquired the bevel up smoother which I love for planing exotic woods, but I have kindof gone backwards and started fixing up type 11 and older stanleys and have quite an attachment to them. the LAJ is useful for shooting the ends of boards with the equipped blade, but I don't do that process to much, If I am smoothing I want a smoother plane and if jointing edges I want a jointer.. or power jointer and refining with a hand jointer. You will learn much by fixing up old planes, and they won't break the bank and hold up fantastically. I do highly recommend hock blades and chipbreakers though.. also I really don't like ductile iron.. I seem to ding up all my new planes, even when I hit brass bench dogs. I like the old stanley cast iron, it is hard stuff and I haven't dropped them to break them yet...neither have any of the other owners in the last 100 years... anyone agree with me?

I agree with you about the old Stanleys. Very few of my bench planes are less than 100 years old. Most of mine can make quick work of a rough board. With a sharp blade I can even get past some of the tricky grain with out changing direction.

jim

[Joseph D'Orazio]

Well its nice to know that opinions on planes are pretty much like opinions on anything else. Wildly different. Yesterday I got stuck for hours looking at yalls projects. Wow. If I get ¼ as good as yall I will be amazing.

[Robert Nease]

Plus one on refurb, and plus two on LN and LV. I have bought and done all three, and all three are very rewarding. Spent hours on an old bailey fore with no lateral, and love it. Conversely, I also love my #8 LN, which was perfect right out of the box, and has just gotten better.

[scott spencer]

I prefer the higher quality older planes to most of the new imports (LN, Veritas, Clifton, etc excluded)...there's usually better value, better quality, and the nostalgia is over the top.

Good quality hand planes on a budget (http://lumberjocks.com/knotscott/blog/14523)

[Angie Kopacek]

As with most things in woodworking, there are lots of different ideas and methods for accomplishing the same tasks. I do recommend getting a good LA jack plane to start. LN or LV, you won't go wrong with either one. First, you'll know what a good plane feels like (as others have pointed out). Secondly, it will do a lot of tasks well enough for you that you can start to see where you will use planes. It's long enough to do some jointing (though not as well as a dedicated jointer); it's short enough to do some smoothing (though not as well as a dedicated smoother); and with the low angle blade, you can drop it on its side and do shooting. Being able to do all these things with one plane will show you where you are using a hand plane the most, and then you can start looking at buying specialized planes (new or used) for the tasks you perform most often. Look at Anton - he has traveled that path. With a LN or LV, if you get to that point and decide to sell, you will get the majority of your investment back to put into the specialized plane you will use more.

Hope that helps...

[Steve Branam]

I prefer the higher quality older planes to most of the new imports (LN, Veritas, Clifton, etc excluded)...there's usually better value, better quality, and the nostalgia is over the top.

Good quality hand planes on a budget (http://lumberjocks.com/knotscott/blog/14523)

Scott, that's an awesome writeup! You see a lot of complaints about the quality of post-war planes, but they're usually pretty vague. It's nice to see some focus on the specific problems. It also helps explain the "that was a bad year for them" kind of comment.