If big is good, is bigger better?

[Ryan Hellmer]

I have recently moved from a one car garage/shop to a two car-sized detached building, with an additional outbuilding for storage. In the move, things got jumbled up and I'm still really disorganized. I've always had a pretty full arsenal of tools, but lately I've been having a change in direction. I have always had an antique Walker Turner tablesaw that I love, so I got to looking online for some info and it's like my eyes were opened.

Now, time for the question. I'm thinking about replacing all my Chaiwanese machines (not tools per se, as you will pry my makita routers from my cold, dead hands) with American. I've found a 12" table saw and 16" jointer, I'm expanding my electrical capabilities to run (on rotary converter) three phase. Is this just crazy? Is there a time when a bargain basement price on a lathe that is WAY too big for anything I'd ever do a bad decision? Is this a common phenomenon? Advice on space-saving techniques for 1000 lb pieces of iron?

Thanks

Ryan

[Kent A Bathurst]

You're joking, right? :D

[Brian Kincaid]

Been through this thought process myself. There are diminishing returns for some equipment (gigantor planer or belt sander). But, there are really nice reasons for others 16" jointer...

At one point I could have scored a 12" dia 10' slider for scrap price in somewhat disrepair. It would have cost me over $1K to get power to this saw, and there was no guarantee it would be better than what I was currently using so I passed...

-Brian

[Brian Myers]

Is this just crazy? Is there a time when a bargain basement price on a lathe that is WAY too big for anything I'd ever do a bad decision?

Thanks

Ryan

NEVER! :D Just check my avatar, it will be another year or two before she is running but who doesn`t need a 40" bandsaw? :cool:

[Mike Cruz]

To answer your question, I would have to say that you should get the biggest/best that you can fit in your shop and still be able to comfortably enough work in your shop. In other words, machinery is only "too big" if you can no longer function in there. I have a 24 x 30 shop with a 20" planer, 8" long bed jointer, double bag DC, 17" DP, and a Uni with 52" fence. Did I NEED stuff that big? NO! I could have done just fine with a 15" planer, 6" short bed jointer, single bag DC, table top DP, and my contractor's TS...all of which I had. But I upgraded each, one at a time. My shop doesn't look like a hobbyist shop. Everyone that looks at it says... wow, what are you going to do with all this industrial stuff...to which I answer...same as I did with my other stuff, enjoy wwing. :D

If you can no longer function in whatever space you have, then your machinery is not aiding you in your wwing, its getting in the way. As long as you can still move around...:cool:

[Rod Sheridan]

Ryan, sometimes old used industrial machinery is a great choice, other times it's a poor choice.

I'm going to assume that you have space for the machinery, and the ability to move into place yourself, or use a millwrighting company.

That's the easy to evaluate stuff, the difficult stuff is;

- are parts available for the machine, at a price that is acceptable?

- is the performance of the machine acceptable, will it do everything you want? Before you dismiss this out of hand because "old machines are better than new machines", are they really?

Are there newer machines that take less space, have more and better features, and are easier to operate at a cost that you would be comfortable with?

- is the safety of the machine acceptable? This is where it goes to hell in hand cart often. We look at these glorious old iron monsters and think "Wow, I got that for a steal, the company I bought it from is full of idiots". Maybe, however maybe not.

The company may have sold it because it was too much money or effort to bring it up to modern safety standards. Before you dismiss this comment, consider what you may think later after losing some fingers in an occurrence that could have been prevented with modern safety features.

Don't take this the wrong way, I love old motorcycles, and ride a lot. I have a 1930 machine, and some 1970's machines. The 1930 machine is wonderful, however certainly not safe for today's traffic in an urban area.

Old wood working machinery is a lot like that, wonderful, quirky, great to use or watch, however not very well suited to modern safety practises.

Have fun with your old machinery, however I wouldn't give up a good Euro combination or separate machine for an old machine unless I was more interested in restoration and preservation than wood working.

Regards, Rod.

[David Hostetler]

I always suggest that people go with the best equipment they are comfortable buying. And that doesn't always mean the bigger, fancier name branded etc... Just what does the job you want done the best in your price range. In many cases, name brands are just a way to suck more money out of you for the same stuff...

I would LOVE to replace my Chinese / Taiwan made stuff with old U.S. iron, or even new U.S. iron if there is such a thing, but there is a certain point of diminishing return, ESPECIALLY in a small shop.

I am not sure what additional good a 12" table saw would do you if you already have a nice old Walker Turner 10". I can see the difference in a SCMS, but for a table saw, not so much...

A 16" jointer is mind numbing for the average hobby shop, just seems like overkill to me. I have yet to need anything bigger than my 6", but then again, I am not allergic to face jointing on my planer either...

[Don Jarvie]

What do you want to make? Do you plan on making big furniture, selling some pieces? You have to keep that in mind as you look at some of the tools.

A 12 inch Delta or Powermatic TS will handle a power feeder better than a 10 inch saw but how much wood do you plan to rip that a power feeder would be necessary.

I have a WT 10 TS, 13 Inch Belsaw Planer, 9 Inch Delta RAS, 6 inch jointer and 14 inch Bandsaw (Relient brand) plus the assortment of hand power tools. I would like to move up to a 18 inch bandsaw and a 8 inch jointer. For my needs the BS and jointer upgrade would suit my needs.

[Van Huskey]

Too big is just big enough.

[Callan Campbell]

[QUOTE=Rod Sheridan;1497672] As always, another thoughtful AND well thought out reply from Mr. Sheridan:cool::cool::cool:

[Joe Shinall]

You're joking, right? :D




Ditto.:D:D:D

[Ryan Hellmer]

As for the questions, here's my thoughts. My dad has a sawmill, so everything I handle is rough-sawn. This means LOTS of jointing, planing and ripping. Thus the big table saw and jointer. I make everything for myself, flooring, furniture, cabinets, shop stuff, never sold a thing.

The safety factor is what made me decide between an even older 12" jointer and my current shopfox 8". Moving from 6 to 8 opened a whole new world to me. My thoughts on this new move (8 to 16:D) are following a similar path. The guard is missing on this "new" jointer but it is easily fabricated and you bet your bottom dollar that will be my first order of business. It does have the crescent round safety head with more modern gibs, so that's nice as well.

Shop safety is one of the most important things in my mind. I was seriously considering a sawstop and still will someday when I have some money. This "new" W/T table saw has all its original guards and splitter in place. Ironically they are substantially identical to what would come on a brand new saw (although I wish it had a riving knife). My dad is missing some pieces of digits and I certainly don't want to go down that path.

I really just want the bigger table saw for extra power and stability. My existing W/T is a 950 (contractors model like the 1180 with its bottom half cut off) and with 1 HP doesn't quite go through some of the hard white oak and locust that I've dealt with. The new W/T (LC1302) is a beast with 5HP. That should handle most of my needs. Although when I have lots of ripping, I turn to my WM718 gang rip and it does the trick nicely.

So far, all my old Arn acquisitions have been a good balance between impulse and rational thought. I've resold those that were too impulsive (and made a profit) and kept those that I felt comfortable with. I've even walked away from one after a 2 hour drive:eek:. I've also had good luck with getting machines in working order that really just need a good cleaning and adjustment before they go back to work.

Like many have already said, I'm sure woodworking is just a coverup for my real hobby of tool collecting. I'd be interested to know how any of you have adapted an older machine to bring it in line with modern processes, safety or convenience.

Ryan

[Kirk Poore]

Smaller is handier. But if you have space, you can have a small machine and a big machine. I have a 14" band saw--and a 30"; and 4" and 8" jointers. But I don't think you need two planers--I sold my 12" Dewalt after getting my 18" Oliver running. I also have 3 lathes, but two of them will go on the block eventually.

Kirk

[Ray Schwalb]

It's good to admit you are a tool collector, I am one too. IMHO there's nothing like using big equipment-fewer limitations. A 16" Crescent jointer was one of the finest tools I've ever used. I have 14" jointer now, and would love 16" or 20". So, if you really are a tool collector, there's no such thing as too big, so long as there's still room to move around. I once had several tons of iron in a 1 car garage. It was admittedly difficult to get anything done, with the doors closed.

[Matt Kestenbaum]

When I was a teenager I spent my summers and weekends cooking in fancy restaurants training to be chef and I once worked for a huge hulking chef from Hungary who often bellowed (in a deep Hungarian accent)...

"Like my Mama always told me! Too much is too much, but too little is not enough!"

Its a little tongue in cheek, but he was getting at the same idea as has been said here too...we are all trying to strike a balance of set-up efficiency, quality of cut, safety, enjoyment and minimum service time. You'll apply your own values to each of those variables.

[James Boster]

Ryan I have been in your situation before and have replaced almost all of my shop with old American iron machinery. In my opinion if you have the room go for it. Your first post was asking about a lathe. I have two wood lathes and one metal lathe. My metal lathe is a 9" Southbend. Great machine but size limited. As my uncle told me when I made the decision to buy it over a larger machine, you can turn small stuff in a big lathe but its hard (not impossible) to turn large stuff with a small lathe. My larger wood lathe is an Oliver #66 and weighs around 6,000#. Not going to put that on a mobile base. Again I dont think you will regret if you have the room. I actually had to put the larger lathe in a shed on the side of my shop and need to finsih enclosing and concrete the floor but I do have it.
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m283/woodhick/th_P1010252.jpg (http://s107.photobucket.com/albums/m283/woodhick/?action=view&current=P1010252.jpg)

[Kirk Poore]

Old wood working machinery is a lot like that, wonderful, quirky, great to use or watch, however not very well suited to modern safety practises.

Have fun with your old machinery, however I wouldn't give up a good Euro combination or separate machine for an old machine unless I was more interested in restoration and preservation than wood working.

Regards, Rod.

Rod, I went back and reread your response, and I'm afraid I must challenge you on it. With the exception of the table saw, and possibly the radial arm saw, older machinery is or can easily be made as safe as modern machinery. My 1915 band saw has full, factory-installed guards which I've supplemented only immediately above the upper guides. I've yet to see a guard (other than a belt guard) on a drill press of any vintage, let alone my 1966 Powermatic. Similarly, my spindle sander, belt/disk sander, jointers, jig saw, and lathe, all over 40 years old, all have the equivalent of modern guards. My 1950 Oliver planer has no exposed moving parts, but I guess you could shove your hand in there if you wanted to get it chewed up.

Indeed, I would say that a large industrial radial arm saw is safer than a typical home hobby saw, since with greater mass and power the blade is much less likely to grab in the wood and pull the head toward you. Of course you could also argue that a RAS is easier to use dangerously than, say, a sliding table saw, but that's a different discussion.

Indeed, the main advantage that very recently built machines have is in dust collection, and most older machines can be retrofitted for that too. Older, heavier machines are often quieter than new, light machines, so there are tradeoffs to be made in both directions.

Kirk

[Rod Sheridan]

Kirk, many machines did indeed have guards, however I've seen many planers and tenoners with exposed gears, shafts and pulleys.

Many band saws did not have wheel covers, or guards over the upswept blade.

I've also seen a tenoner without any guards over the cutters, and a few shingle mills that looked positively scary.

As always generalisations are dangerous and I should have been more careful in my wording, thanks for the reminder.

Regards, Rod.

[Scott T Smith]

[QUOTE=Rod Sheridan;1497672] As always, another thoughtful AND well thought out reply from Mr. Sheridan:cool::cool::cool:


+2. Some folks were just blessed with an extraordinary amount of common sense - Rod is one of them.

[Chris Damm]

"If big is good, is bigger better?"
Yes and too big is just right!
You can do small jobs on big machines but you can't do big jobs on small machines! (old polish proverb).

[Kirk Poore]

Rod:

Certainly there are many very old machines which have dangerously exposed parts. Heck, I have a tenoner (circa 1880, as yet unrestored) just like the one you describe. But the vast majority of machines built after, say, 1940 are as fully guarded as recently built machines, or can be easily upgraded. Safety equipment can be seen easily even in bad auction and on-line ad photos, so a buyer can bypass machines he’s not comfortable with before getting into the pesky little details like condition, price, and location.

Kirk

[Rusty Eads]

I will probably be about the only one here who will say that you can have too big and I'm ready to be chastised about that. I, for one, have turned down some good deals on bigger machines. Sure I could use the extra capacity sometimes but one should also look at the other costs associated with running a bigger than needed machine. I would love to have a 20" planer rather than my 13" but can I justify the fact that not only does the bigger motor cost more to run but the knives cost increase exponentially as they get longer? Doing this as a hobby and having only a very limited income available, I would rather have a tool that I can afford to keep and maintain and deal with the limitations, than have a tool that can do everything but not able to replace knives, blades or any other consumable that it uses. That is just my 2 cents. I would love to hear that I am wrong and that it costs just as much to maintain the bigger machinery cuz I have a whole basement shop in need of upgrade :rolleyes:

[Chip Lindley]

I will probably be about the only one here who will say that you can have too big and I'm ready to be chastised about that....I would love to have a 20" planer rather than my 13" but can I justify...the bigger motor cost more to run but the knives cost...?

Rusty, unless you run a 5hp planer for several hours, frequently, you will see no appreciable difference in your electric bill. Whats $5?? Leaving the TV on 24/7 (at my house) does the same thing!

Concerning consumables, most table-top planers use "disposable" knives, where 15"-20" knives can be resharpened @home on a drill press with abrasive cup wheel. No need at all to send these out! I've sharpened my own planer/jointer knives for many years this way.

Addressing TOO BIG; it can just end up be in the way! Let's face it, a 2-car garage (what I am presently blessed with) is not that large! Yes, twice as big as a 1-car garage, but filled with twice as many tools, wall-to-wall; still very crowded.

If I find a good, cheap 16" jointer, I will, no doubt find room for it. But, if someone were to give me a huge lathe, I would have to think twice (or three times) before keeping it. I have had a very limited need for a wood lathe in the past 25 years.

Indeed, there can be too much of a good thing, if not truly usable on some regular basis. Once the "Oooh & Aahh Factor" has worn off, large, rarely used machines just take up valuable workshop real estate. Space needed for accomplishing real tasks at hand.