New vs. Old..........

[Terry Hatfield]

With all this plane restoration talk I got to thinking.....I know....that's dangerous for me and something I'm barely qualified for...but....

Are there updates/innovations that make the new LV or LN planes better than the old Stanleys???? I understand about the low angle blade stuff but what I am really asking for example is the LV #4 better than a good properly tuned #4 Stanley???

Thanks,

Terry

[John Weber]

Terry,

As a power guy, I think there are certain "types" that are better then others, in general most recent 60's+ planes are not considered that good. Some very early planes are also missing some adjustment features. And for instance many war era plane have heavier castings, that many folks like. As for better, I think the newer blades are better. but I think an old Bedrock is as good as a new LN given the same setup and blade. I tend to like newer planes better (especially LN's), but my budget is small so I buy the best I can at the time. My #5 is a late model 50/60's Stanley and does fine, I also have a post war rough #3 Stanley from my Grandfather, and a '98 vintage #4 Stanley, plus several vintage block planes. But when I buy planes now I typically look for new ones and have a couple Cliftons, Lie-Nielsens, and Lee Valley planes. Bottom line is I think either can be well tuned to work great, basically comes down to what you like, time (an older plane may need more prep work), and budget. I have a minty #3 sort of like your "new" number 4 that is just a beautiful little plane.

John

[Joel Moskowitz]

Take a stock Stanley with rosewood handles (an older one that's in decent shape) add a heavy aftermarket blade and the limiting factor in it's performance is how well you can sharpen. (get Charlesworth's article on tuning for even better performance)
The same goes for a LV and LN - except they already have heavy blades. You might see a difference on really difficult timber but even there I doubt it.

in Garret Hack's article a few years ago testing planes - basiccally after he rated all the premuim smoothers he took a low end anant - tuned it up with a clifton blade and cap iron as said it worked as well as any of the others.

THe real reason for buying a premium plane is that the factory has already done the tuning and it's in pretty great shape out of the box and you aren't taking the crap shoot you are with getting a plane a mimimim of 42 years .

[Terry Hatfield]

Ahhhh...the blade. Yes, I too saw an immediate difference in the .125 LN blade in my #4 vs the much thinner stock blade in my Record #5. I guess there is no substituting mass even in hand tools.

t

[Tim Sproul]

Terry,

I know of a recently posted article of in 'central under the WC articles link. Derek Cohen did a write up directly comparing a Stanley LA jack versus Veritas' "new and improved" LA jack....the Veritas performed significantly better than the Stanley in his hands. IIRC, SMC rules prohibit me from providing a direct link to another forum... :rolleyes:

Read it yourself and note the caveats for yourself....

IME, I've had a not-so-good time restoring antique Stanley planes.....for the time and money spent in return for the performance you get, I find Veritas and Knight planes be a MUCH better value than any antique plane......but I don't collect. Antiques can be restored to very good performance....but that typically requires a large bit of luck, a lot of elbow grease, a sizable dollop of time and knowledge of fettling techinques. Of course, I also understand that if I weren't as well off financially, I'd be singing a different tune regarding new vs. old..... :D

[Terry Hatfield]

Terry,

I know of a recently posted article of in 'central under the WC articles link. Derek Cohen did a write up directly comparing a Stanley LA jack versus Veritas' "new and improved" LA jack....the Veritas performed significantly better than the Stanley in his hands.

Antiques can be restored to very good performance....but that typically requires a large bit of luck, a lot of elbow grease, a sizable dollop of time and knowledge of fettling techinques. Of course, I also understand that if I weren't as well off financially, I'd be singing a different tune regarding new vs. old..... :D


Tim,

Thanks for telling me about the article. I will check it out on my daily pass through WC.

Everything you mentioned about the old planes is why I have decided that I am better off to buy planes from Robin or someone that has already done the feddeling for me. Saves some money vs. buying new LV or LN for sure and I do enjoy just having the old planes. I was just wondering if I was missing out on something by not buying the new planes. I'll check out the article and see if that changes my mind.

Thanks,

t

[Joel Moskowitz]

THe Stanley low angle planes are not the finest things ever to come out of the stanley factory. I am talking about regular bench planes. I don't really like LA planes as a group so I'm not the guy to comment on them.

[Brad Olson]

I am a new plane convert, primarily LV, but LN has a few things that are better the LV (rabbetting block plane come to mind). In almost all of the cases so far, Both LV and LN have made significant improvements over the antiques. Now if you are asking if new Records, stanleys and anants and the like are any better I'd say they pale in comparison to the antiques.

Not that old planes are bad per se, I like them (a lot), but the problem is that all of the ones I have encountered required too much fettling to get them worthwhile, and if I really want them to sing they need thicker replacement irons that put the cost of these planes much closer to the cost of new LV planes and not too far off LN cost.

One of the advantages of starting with a couple of antiques is that you really learn how a plane works and how to get it properly working, which is very useful for troubleshooting.

[John Dingman]

With all this plane restoration talk I got to thinking.....I know....that's dangerous for me and something I'm barely qualified for...but....

Are there updates/innovations that make the new LV or LN planes better than the old Stanleys???? I understand about the low angle blade stuff but what I am really asking for example is the LV #4 better than a good properly tuned #4 Stanley???

Thanks,

Terry
Terry,

To answer your question in a word, "Yes." The LV and LN planes of today are better than the antique Stanleys. And as stated here already much of that improvement is in the blade. I have had several antique Stanley Planes and I have learned how to fettle them to get some really fluffy shavings. And I thought I was doing real well with them. That is until the LV LA Jack plane arrived. I used that to flatten the top of my work bench (project in progress) and I couldn't believe the difference of this plane right out of the box. I believe that this is a result of the thicker blades. I have yet to try a thicker blade in any of my Stanleys, but I think when I do, I will find that my hunch is correct ;)

Have a great day!
John

[Steven Wilson]

The LV, LN, and Clifton planes are much better machined than the old Stanley's. However, the differences may not make any difference in use. Having said that, the heft and machining of the new planes does let you set them finer and I find that I can take a finer cut. One thing about the LN planes is that they are likely to survive a drop from your bench onto concrete due to the material used (ductile iron). My LN LA block plane has survived a few drops to concrete - I have a Stanley that cracked when it fell off my bench.

[JayStPeter]

Terry,

As a novice with handplanes myself, you can take my opinion for what it's worth. I like the LV adjuster much better than any other I've tried.
I really dislike the old stanley adjusters. I have seen Garett Hack quickly sharpen a blade and put an old #5 back in service. But, not me. I spend more time getting the plane back to working than sharpening the blade. The backlash in that mechanism is ridiculous. I haven't tried a LN bench plane to see if they have improved it over my #605.
I think the set screws LV uses in the sides to hold the blade straight while adjusting is also a great idea. Even though I like the feel of my LN rabbeting block better, I only grab it for functions my LV LA block can't do. Again, the adjusting. It's better than my old planes, but a big hassle with the blade free at the bottom to perform rabbeting duties.
I'm sure with more practice, I'll get better at adjusting. But, until then, I'm done buying old stuff and will stick with LV for my future purchases.

Jay

[Bob Smalser]

Are there updates/innovations that make the new LV or LN planes better than the old Stanleys???? I understand about the low angle blade stuff but what I am really asking for example is the LV #4 better than a good properly tuned #4 Stanley???

Bah Humbug. ;)

A "properly-tuned" Stanley?

Then nothing a thicker blade wouldn't cure....and even that is meaningless on all softwoods and much of your hardwood planing. There are simple work arounds for all modern "improvements" short of better blades, which you can do without giving up your Stanleys....and the frog/iron "ease of adjustment" business is all original Stanley Bedrock hype recycled.

I've never seen a plane truly "easy" to adjust upwards...and they all adjust downwards quite easily. Drop by some time and I'll show you how to do it both upwards and downwards with greater precision than even the best mechanisms using a small brass hammer, and you'll never have to touch that adjusting wheel again.

Need two adjustments? Then simply use two planes...user Stanleys are certainly cheap enough. Frogs might get adjusted once a decade when the mouth wears. Again...need two frog adjustments? Then use two planes...at 25 bucks for many users it's no big deal.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/4518261/56996385.jpg

Countless thousands of tradesmen used Stanleys for their living every day for generations successfully before prestige planes came along....guys who couldn't afford Norris and who probably wouldn't want one if they could...including the men who taught me.

Oars...one of several jobs where most of the work is done by hand planes simply because there is no way else to do it short of an industrial pin router that'll hold 14' stock. There's a coarse setting on the #3 and a fine setting on the #4. Takes me about 8 hours to get out a pair of these from rough stock to the first coat of spar....and probably 6 hours if I did it every day. If I only had one L/N and had to stop to adjust it every time I wanted to go from coarse to fine...it'd take me a bit longer, to say the least.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/4518261/57153465.jpg