Bed construction Begins!!!!

[Mark Singer]

Well after a very successful and truly team effort on design, with lots of helpful input...I am ready to start building. Yesterday I went to Austin and ended up buying 4./4 instead of 8/4 as I set out to. I will need to laminate them to atain the 8/4 thickness. That does insure straight rails if I do it correctly. The reason i went with 4/4 was price...about half and figure...very nice curly maple. I just cleaned up the worksop I have about a dozen chisels and 5 plane irons to sharpen...I will do that first...
Here are so pics ....take it easy Tyler:D

[Ted Shrader]

Mark -

Some very pretty wood. The bed will be great!

Do you have a composite sketch?

Regards,
Ted

[Jim Becker]

Ted (and anyone else who may not have seen it), there is a thread in the Design Forum complete with some super renderings by Dave R.

Mark..awesome maple! Beautiful.

[Greg Heppeard]

Good looking stuff...can't wait to see the finished product

[Tyler Howell]

Here are so pics ....take it easy Tyler:DMark With this bunch I have to take it any way it comes.:p

Nice looking stuff.:cool: Let the lesson begin.

[Mark Singer]

Well between going to a wedding today...Tuxedo and all (can't be a woodworker!) I got some work done. I glued up the curly maple to the plain hard maple for the rails. Here is where a entire project can start off real bad! If you face laminate them and they are not straight...you might as well go sking...cause thats all they will be good for. To insure a straight glue up I keep a couple of aluminium storefront extrustions around. This is much better than checking it with a straight edge...it becomes part of the clamping package and forces the wood flat. Face gluing requires a lot of clamps because of the large surface area. The picture where they are shown on the jointer is after gluing...clamps off...dead flat 2 sets laying one on the other. The only other decent way to do it is use the edge of your glue up table and clamp it with the boards. It must be flat! There are only 3 of these sets required...I got a piece of 8/4 non currly for the back since it will not show.

[Norman Hitt]

Good start Mark, and from looking at the first pic, I can see this project will really go FAST, because besides having nice grain pattern, that wood has other "Unique Qualities". It will Float in the air, so you won't need to make any Legs for the Bed. Ha! (It should really be comfortable to sleep on too, like a flying Carpet) Maybe the reason they wanted so much for the 8/4 was it's increased lift coeficient.

Cheers Norm

[Jim Becker]

The "Laguna Beach Workshop" is looking a bit...umm....clean, there, Mark!! :D Nice start and the extrusions are a nice "tool" to have around for this kind of thing.

[Mark Singer]

Jim,

I cleaned up! Yeah can you believe it.:eek: In the middle of the bath cabinet , I cleaned up once , but by the end it was like a battle ground. I sharpened a bunch of chisels and planes...I was almost late for the wedding yesterday...but, I made it. I am off to a good start...the rails are dead flat! I will try to profile them and make the caps...maybe a sample corner joint today...I need to get the stainless parts ordered...I called Frank and he has the material in stock...but he will have to order the cap screws. I am thinking 1 1/4 " dia for the legs...solid stock.

[Dan Mages]

That is quite an inginious(sp?) solution to making sure the wood is straight while gluing! Those first two pictures you posted look a little funny. The shadows look upside down and both photos have a board floating in mid air! :rolleyes: It appears you have a couple of upsidedown photos. ;) I can't wait to see the final project.

Dan

[Jim Becker]

I am thinking 1 1/4 " dia for the legs...solid stock.
This makes sense. Like chairs, beds are interesting projects because you need to accomodate more than just "weight"...their "versatility" can result in all kinds of stresses that can challenge joinery and support structures to the max. ;) Especially in an un-attached guest suite. :p

[Mark Singer]

Dan,

Your right I must have rotated wrong....if the bed comes out upside down, I will be sleeping on the floor! Why even make I can do that now:D

Jim,
Take it easy...LOML is traveling don't get the old man too excited!:D


That is quite an inginious(sp?) solution to making sure the wood is straight while gluing! Those first two pictures you posted look a little funny. The shadows look upside down and both photos have a board floating in mid air! :rolleyes: It appears you have a couple of upsidedown photos. ;) I can't wait to see the final project.

Dan

[Corvin Alstot]

To insure a straight glue up I keep a couple of aluminium storefront extrustions around. This is much better than checking it with a straight edge...it becomes part of the clamping package and forces the wood flat. Face gluing requires a lot of clamps because of the large surface area. The picture where they are shown on the jointer is after gluing...clamps off...dead flat 2 sets laying one on the other.
Mark /
Pretty clever idea using the storefront extrusions. I probably will steal this idea, truly a flat and lightweight reference material.

I missed out on the design and planning but I feel that the final design has evolved to a more powerful solution, and speaks more to the original nightstands. Of course its hard to go wrong with curly maple, its a great looking wood.
Of course now that you are working with the real material you will have a lot of smaller decisions to make (grain direction, finish color, reveals, connections, etc.) You are sure moving quickly in the shop, I guess I better go there now to make some head way too. Keep up the good work.

Corvin

[Mark Singer]

Some progress pics. I ripped the rails to size . I went a little over the planned dimension of 4" since it will help hide the mattress. I Straightlined the rails with the Festool and made the second cut on the tablesaw. I mocked up acorner bridal joint . I cut it the bandsaw using a stop block, then flipping the piece over for symetry and sawing the second cut. The mortise is cut first...the tenon is scribed from the mortise using a knife. The waste is remove with a chisel as in dovetails ,,,flipped and second side removed, I mocked it up with the top cap and a piece of 1/2" EMT for the leg ,which was all I had. I am questioning the topcap . I am considering a hybrid using the uncapped rails in my first sketch and rectangular stainless legs..(first sketch) but keeping the same Back is in Dave final sketch...maybe I will may a drawing... The joinery techniques may be of interest.

[Mark Singer]

Here is the hybrid I am thinking about...Opinions???

[Christopher Pine]

This is nice but I think I liked the other design better for the headboard. The larger curved piece that went all the way to the floor for the headbaord was very handsaome!
This is nice too...

Chris

[Mark Singer]

Here is a wood leg version. I am not too concerned with making it look like a part of a set with the nightstands...the wood and details will pull it together...if it is a bit eclectic thats ok too

[Neil Clemmons]

Mark,

I actually prefer the stainless legs over the wooden ones. They're a nice accent and tie to the more modern aspects of the design.

I like the rectangular stainless legs better than the round ones - largely because they provide more mass. This is a large bed and I think the rectangular legs do a better job of "anchoring" the bed than the round ones.

One other observation - the headboard shows two upright stainless rounds to hold the back. If you end up going with rectangular legs, you might do the same on the back - provides a bit more stability to the upright back and would tie to the rectangular legs. The back looks like it will be heavy and given it's sloping rearward, I'd want to make sure there is no chance of it wobbling at all.

The disadvantage of rectangular is that it's easier to drill a hole to support the upright, particularly on the bottom of the headboard with it turned upside down than it would be to mortise it to support a rectangular upright.

If you go with round uprights on the back, you might look at using four instead of two just to provide the extra support and rigidity.

Great design. Thanks for sharing progress.

Neil

[Jim Becker]

I also prefer the SS legs, but unlike Neil , prefer the round ones. The rectangular ones look to heavy to me and I do like the connection to the night stands that they give. But I'm anal about things like that!!

[Mark Singer]

Neil,

Thanks , Those are good observations ...I am in a bit of a dilema...you might want to see the drawings and design stages for this in the design forum//
Thanks

[Mark Singer]

A little more progress. Since i can't decide on the rail detail / leg...I worked around it by gluing up the back. The width was not wide enough and the length was 50% longer so I cut off a piece , ripped in half, split the end grain with ebony so you would not see the grain shift...With my design delema everything seems turned around:D

[Mark Singer]

Jim,

I read your comments about the round legs ...here is another version ...I don't like the top cap...that is out...if you look at the mock up it looks weak

[Joe Mioux]

Mark:

That bed looks familiar.

From a practical stand point losing the caps makes entry and exit from the bed easier. One other issue that was not discussed during the design phase was how well will that cap hold up with people climbing in and out of bed and using it as a seat. Will the cap hold the weight of a person?

Also, if you go this route, I like the heavier look of the legs from the side profile of your drawing. The bed looks more stable with those heavier looking legs. And I do not believe that the heavier legs sacrifices anything to the overal light feel of the bed. The front profile's view of the legs looks too thin.

I just remembered the night stand legs were round. Would larger round legs work?

From a aesthetic stand point, I like the added visual element of the cap.

Joe

[Ted Calver]

Mark,
I know it's a bit late to be chiming in with suggestions after keeping quiet during all the excellent discussion on your design thread but I wonder if the difficulty in selecting a front leg set has to do with it being so prominent. The collaborative design appeals to me in large measure because the platform appears to float. Perhaps the difficulty finding a front leg solution is because they all interfere with that illusion. Have you considered flat black tubular legs recessed 1' +/- in on a diagonal off the front corners? They would certainly provide adequate stability while remaining in the shadow and allowing the bed to levitate.
Ted

[Mark Singer]

Joe,

This may help and yes it looks like I am coming full circle....this is my own bed I posted a will ago. Here the legs are on the front on the new bed they are on the sides. The wood is wenge and bridal joints .....no cap

Ted,
Welcome I am interested in all input...I don't want the "floating" look with no legs. I think it is nice to see the structure and the floor.

[Keith Christopher]

MArk,


I like the round SS legs. The pic of your bed sealed it for me. I loved it. looks awesome.


Keith

[Mark Singer]

Keith,

Mine are flat rectangular! ???


MArk,


I like the round SS legs. The pic of your bed sealed it for me. I loved it. looks awesome.


Keith

[Ralph Morris]

[QUOTE=Mark Singer]Dan,

Your right I must have rotated wrong....if the bed comes out upside down, I will be sleeping on the floor! Why even make I can do that now:D


You might want to get a strap to strap yourself to the bed ?

[Earl Kelly]

Mark, is the mattress sitting on a torsion box? I would be afraid of sag without. Personally I prefer legs to be out of the way of toes, you'd be amazed at what you can find in the middle of the night with your little toe. I'm constructing a King size bed for my son to replace his queen poster bed. Needs a bigger bed for some reason. The footboard on it will bend around the box spring in a arc to meet the rail, with the leg recessed under a few inches. This was a request for my daughter-in-law.

I enjoy your postings, I can tell you enjoy your work on these projects. It shows in the finished product.

[Louis Bois]

O.K. 2 cents...here we go.

You've probably already decided on SS legs...round or rectangular...but for some reason, I can't shake the vision of those wooden legs in an earlier sketch. They just seem to ground the frame better...without making the frame look too heavy. The modern aspect is preserved with the modular looking headboard assembly...makes for a nice marriage of modern and traditional. But don't mind me, I'm a wood nut and still love the old fashioned sleigh beds!!! Coopered, of course.

All in all, lovely work!!! I've been enjoying all your progress posts. Thanks for sharing.

[Keith Christopher]

Keith,

Mine are flat rectangular! ???

I meant in the drawing, they looked round to me. D'oh! but I like the metal one better.

Keith

[Mark Singer]

Earl ,your question is good about the structure...I have built a lot of beds and did not think to make a structural diagram before...here is one.

Louis, I am not sure I still may use the wood...I have elected to work around the dilema by doing other things...still a bit in the design stage and that is a good lesson for those who run into this...make the parts you are sure of...the small mock upwas tellimg...I did not like the cap

The joinery on a bed must be detailed for "Knock Down" KD so the joinery must be strong and yet not glued...it is a good test of a good fit and design with no glue to fill in gaps

[Jim Becker]

Mark, even though this is a queen sized bed, I think I'd put an unobtrusive leg in the middle of that center beam just for piece of mind. In most cases, it is not needed but if you get some rather stout guests it will help keep things level and prevent sagging over time from all of the various stresses that beds tend to have thrown at them.

[Mark Singer]

Jim,

I probably will use the center leg....remember mine wasn't even touching the floor....maybe we are not stressing it correctly...:rolleyes:

[Earl Kelly]

Mark,I like that support system. Usually, though, for my beds I like to use large rails (9-12") with 1.5" deck supports and a deck of .75" ply, with center support legs and rail. It totally seals off the bottom of the box springs or mattress, whichever you use.

I saw a bed similar to yours where the designer used convex slats for mattress suport. They were bowed up slightly in the middle, without a center leg.

Anyway I like your work, the style is timeless.

[Dave Richards]

Wow, I seemed to have missed a lot.

Mark, I think I'm going to miss the top ledge around the top of the bed. I didn't think it was wide enough to get in the way but then our bed has a rail that is a good 6 or 8 inches wide and I'm used to that.

Our bed consists of a KD frame of koa. There is a central rail that runs up the enter like you show. (Good idea, by the way. I was going to change my drawing to do something like that.) The slats are connected with a couple of strips of webbing so they can be reomved from the bed and rolled up. the end slats as well as a middle one are drilled to receive short dowels that are installed in the rails. This helps to keep the slats spread out.

On top of the slats there is a tatami mat--one on each side of the center rail. There is a flat surface then for the mattress. There is also a center leg which helps reduce flexing

I think your design without the top rail should be nice. It will certainly look lighter. I think I'd like to see the round stainless legs though. In my mind's eye, the round stainless legs would nearly disappear. I think wooden legs that are sufficiently large to be strong will also look heavy.

The most recent SketchUp model is on my home computer so I can't update it yet. If you wanted to e-mail the model I sent you, I could do it this afternoon. Or else I'll do it when I get home.

Dave

[Mark Singer]

Dave, you have really done your 500% on this project! Your own bed sounds intriguiging...did you make it or buy it? Can you post a picture or 2 for me to see?
Thanks.

[Corvin Alstot]

This may help and yes it looks like I am coming full circle....this is my own bed I posted a while ago. Here the legs are on the front on the new bed they are on the sides. The wood is wenge and bridal joints .....no cap

Ted,
Welcome I am interested in all input...I don't want the "floating" look with no legs. I think it is nice to see the structure and the floor.
Mark/
I guess I do not check back to the forum often enough, I thought you had the legs resolve. . .
I much prefer the metal legs round or rectangular than the wood. In the sketch, the wood legs appear a little heavy, the steel legs give the bed a modern and light appearance that I prefer.
I would think that if you use a rectangular support for the leg, that the back support in metal would be of a similar geometry (round or rectangular).
Best of luck,
Corvin

[Mark Singer]

Dave, Corvin

I agree the metal legs are the best choice...when I am not sure I try to work around it. I am thinking the rectangular, like my bed with the reveal...I will olace the order with Frank (Metalworks ) tomorrow.

[Joe Mioux]

wow, this thread has been moving.

I'm not exactly sure where we are.

The wood legs have a oriental feel, while the stainless legs have a modern feel. I like the mass of the wood, but the look of SS.

If you are questioining the legs? I like the look and feel of square SS legs. Modern design with stability and substance.

BTW: I thought we were finished with the design segment:confused: Yeah Yeah I know, design is evolutionary.

[Mark Singer]

I glued up the all importaant headboard and I need to chose up or down...there is I piece of ebony I inlayed to break the grain shift...should the ebony be up or down?. and there is a front and back. Obviously the front is more important since the back is against the wall. Looking at the photos which do you like? One side is darked and streaked ..the other has a dark sap tight line.. Another dilema. The lay up went well.
I need to know...I am redy to cove the back..using the tablesaw this time.

[Jim Becker]

Tough choices, Mark...they all have merit. Stand back from the piece in each configuration and squint your eyes a little to blur the details slightly. See which way that you find the most pleasing color/tone wise that way. The dark heart and the sap line are equally distracting in some respects and for that reason, I think "ebony up" is going to be nice since it draws the eye up away from the darker grain patterns. But I could just be halucinating...'was reading a very heavy non-fiction book that Dr. SWMBO assigned to me before jetting off to India on Friday. :D

[Dan Mages]

If you put the ebony on the bottom, there is a chance that it will be burried by the pillows and therefore negated as a feature of the bed. I think you should add ebony at the foot end of the bed.

3 bits, adjusted for inflation.

[Earl Kelly]

Mark, I vote you put the dark in the front. Leave the dark streak for the back. You're shaping this, right? That should change the shape of the front dark areas. Maybe make it even more interesting.

[Mark Singer]

Earl,
I agree! With the shaping a maybe a light stain before oil it should blend...what about the Ebony.?

[Mark Singer]

Well I worked around the wood grain dilema..by doing other things this evening. I resawed top caps for the rails ,since they are built up from 2 pieces of 3/4" I didn't want to see the joint and both boards fromthe top. In the initial design, the projecting cap board would cover it...now it is home made veneer. The photos show resawing at the bandsaw. Then I ran them through the drum sander for thickness final is about an eigth..maybe less. he next photos show 2 good ways to glue up...one is back to back sandwich , with the veneer in the center...it gives a consistent pressure, The other is the edge of the bench with the veneer against the bench, That is it for now. I will make a leg shop drawing for Frank of Metalworks and send it to him...for all the wood leg fans...maybe next time:eek:

[Mark Singer]

Here is the leg shop drawing

[Jim Becker]

I think you should add ebony at the foot end of the bed.
This is an excellent suggestion...mirror the ebony inlay at the foot, too.

[Dave Richards]

Mark, it's looking good. I agree with the comment on the ebony inlay at the foot.

re: our bed. SWMBO bought it when she taught in Hawaii. I'll try to get some pictures of it and post them. The corner joints are kind of interesting.

Keep up the great documentation.

Dave

[Mark Singer]

Well, you can see I made a decsion on the legs...Its coming together. Thanks for your help!

[Mark Singer]

After dinner with friends, I managed to get some work in. I trimed the veneer flush using the drum sander ...what a timesaver! Then after a final cut to length...I layed out the joints. The first cuts were made on the bandsaw...the waste was removed with a chisel and mallet. The tenons were scribe from the mortises and after checking with a scrap piece for fit...they were all cut from the same set up. I cut them tight so a little hand trimming was required. The joints need to be flushed with a plane...but, very good fits so far

[Earl Kelly]

Mark, I disagree with some of the others, I would not add the ebony to the footboard. With this design the FtBd looks more like an extension of the rails, with it looking like a frame. I don't see a real connecting relationship to the headboard.

[Jim Becker]

Mark, are you going to chamfer the edges of the bridle joints as you did on the other bed? (or was that a different piece of furniture???)

[Mark Singer]

Jim,

On the Coffee table , I used a roundover bit and a sanding contour to add detail to the joint....On my bed I just made it flush....What do you think?

Here is the link to the table and the bed.:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3651&stc=1


Earl, I tend to agree with you...the ebony detail was needed at the headboard...I will wait I can always add it at the front

[Mark Singer]

More progress tonight. I made the center beam that supports the slats out of ash. I cut 2 rabbets to accept the slats, Dowels were drilled into ends using a home made jig, When transfering remember its the mirror image ,reverse the jig on the rail for the correct alignment

THe setup shows coving the back of the headboard on the tablesaw. Multiple passes are required with a very low blade. The desired profile is drawn on the edge of the headboard....each pass gets smoother and closer to the desired profile...the ridges will be removed with a plane and scrapper. Coving on the tablesaw can be dangerous...the diagnol fence should be on the infeed side of the blade. Raise the blade a very small amount each pass...moving the fence. If the pattern is symetrical , you just flip the work piece each pass...this one is not.

The arched top was cut on the bandsaw and smoothed with a spokeshave. I tryed a compass plane #113...it really didn't like the curly cherry even with the grain direction. I start shapping the taper of the back using the spokeshave,

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I like the wood you chose...Curly Maple is always beautiful. You're drawing is a good one. I can't wait to see the bed finished. I like the non-cap version better.

[Mark Singer]

I managed to get in about 3 hours today.I spent the time shaping the back using several techniques. In the same way i used the tablesaw to cove the back, I used my General Drum Sander to curve the face. By elevating the back with boards held with strong double stick tape....you can curve the edge. After several passes use a thicker board below or add one. It is very much like putting a secondary bevel on a chisel....if you did several , it would become a curve. You can do this on the jointer also...it is a little dangerous there...the guard must be removed.

Using the drum sander material is removed and a curved form is achieved with each pass. ( I haven't seen this one in books)
The back had many ridges in the concave curve. I first used my convex plane and tearout was a bit of a problem . I then switched to a Makita angle grinder with 36 grit and then 50 grit. This is a flexible disc with a rubber pad behind it. Dust mask and eye protection is a must. Maloof and Victor Di Novi use this and auto body sanders on seats and contoured parts especially concave ones. It takes a light touch and a lot of practice. I used my #113 Circular plane to the arched radius to take out the humps left by the bandsaw.
So again I am using hand tools and unusual machine shaping techniques.

[Jim Becker]

Interesting use of the drum sander, Mark...but effective!

[Keith Christopher]

Mark,


Pardon my question but are the legs strong enough to support more than sleeping on the bed ? I can see my kids running in and jumping on the bed.
Keith

[Keith Christopher]

So again I am using hand tools and unusual machine shaping techniques.Innovation. Plain and simple strange ? MaybeI mean heck I used a spacebag as a vacuum press! not as elegant as your off-the-cuff techniques but both worked. ;)
Love the techniques mark, can't wait to see it finished.


Keith

[Mark Singer]

Keith we shall see???? I think they are plenty strong enough. Vertical load is not an issue. It would be lateral forces in the short direction of the bed....if it moves I have a solution...I think it will be fine. I will brobably use #14 screws and the wood is hard. I tried to deflect the center beam by bending it...it didn't budge! I should have it together by next week....Frank , the stainless guy is real busy...he said he is trying for next week. I may make some temp. legs just to see how it looks. I never was a good waiter.

[Jim Becker]

Pardon my question but are the legs strong enough to support more than sleeping on the bed ? I can see my kids running in and jumping on the bed.
This actually came up earlier in the thread and included a suggestion for a center leg under the support beam. Furniture does need to be designed to not only look nice, but also support both the weight and stresses it is expected to endure. This includes not only materials but also the joinery chosen for the job.

[Mark Singer]

Pretty good progress today...I really made upmy mind to get the headboard finished. As Jim Becker predicted ,early on, it was a challenge. The curly maple is another wood I can't plane...especially on curves. Even the straight edges and using my finest planes would not work. At the rays the soft wood tears out...I am sure there must be a technique it is beyond my realm at the present:eek:

So out came a barage of sanders and I took it all the way to a coat of Tried and true...looking very nice. The shape is very good and the wood is filled with figure and "light". The form is thin and is a tappering curve on 2 sides. There was no reason to cove the back ...no one will see it...I guess I know its there! Keeping it flat on the back would have saved major work...major! Its done now ... It still wet in the photos...not rubbed out yet.

[Christopher Pine]

As allways Mark, Beautiful job! I reread previously about the ebony. You put this in to break the grain. Was it because you glued two different boards that were not the full length of the headboard? I guess I am not understanding the purpose of the ebony inlay. If its just for looks or if two shorter boards were butted against it and to do this you used the ebony?
Chris

[Keith Christopher]

Mark,


Love the inlay detail, I think the ebony breaks the grain shift nicely and draws your attention to the color contrast setoff by the beautiful grain.


Keith

[Mark Singer]

The board iI started with was about 7'-4" and much thinner. I needed 5'-4" wide...so I cut of the end about 2'-8" and ripped it in half. The 2 pieces were equal in length to the long piece...but , the grain was not continuous...so I used the Ebony to seperate it!
As allways Mark, Beautiful job! I reread previously about the ebony. You put this in to break the grain. Was it because you glued two different boards that were not the full length of the headboard? I guess I am not understanding the purpose of the ebony inlay. If its just for looks or if two shorter boards were butted against it and to do this you used the ebony?
Chris

[Christopher Pine]

I see what you mean now! Good idea! I hate to waste wood! Looks great!
Will you weld the legs as per your diagram? I have not welded or even know much about it. I suppose stainless is not much different than other steels as far as welding goes.

Again, Nice work!

Chris

[Mark Singer]

I am not much of a metal guy...I did do the legs on the nightstands, but no welding. Frank Smart does all my fine metal work...Scottish and a fine crafstman and good friend. Among other tings he is an Artist and has been accepted to the Festival of the Arts for about 8 years now!
I see what you mean now! Good idea! I hate to waste wood! Looks great!
Will you weld the legs as per your diagram? I have not welded or even know much about it. I suppose stainless is not much different than other steels as far as welding goes.

Again, Nice work!

Chris

[Scott Coffelt]

Mark I have the tip you were missing.

Have a spray bottle handy. Spray the area you are about to plane to get the fibers wet. Then work the wood. That's what was shared to me when I bought some rough Curly Maple the last time. i was talking about my last experience and the guy who mills it told me the secret.

Give it a try some time.

[John Miliunas]

Hey Mark, that's really starting to come together now! Personally, I very much appreciate the "play-by-play" commentary. It's almost like being there! Curious though: To what gritt did you take the paper to? And, what's your favorite method for talking before finish and/or between coats? :) As you may tell, I'm still trying to get a better handle on finishing and I mean everything from prep to final coat and/or rub-out. I've tried numerous finishes and techniques, but none of them are right where I'd like the results to be. Thanks! :) :cool:

[Mark Singer]

John,

Good question and I really didn't cover the prep... So...after the 50 grit on the Makita grinder...this is a shaping phase, I used a belt sander with 80 grit and the 100...I must have poped 6 belts (Klingspoor) from the heat...then I found a purple 3 M it held up supper. Next 60 grit in a 5" Bosch ROS...then 80 the 100
Then I switched to the 6" ros ...Bosch also and did 120 grit Then I switched to the Festool 150 - 3 the fine sander 6" and went 100...150...220...320.. Then I went 3 M fiber wool grey and white . Then I mixed a touch of Watco "golden Oak into Tried and True. This was to match the color on the nightstands...I started those with a thined out Golen Oak and I used Uncle Vances which they stopped making about 7 years ago...it was kind of like T&T but the wax was seperate.It feels like glass now ...but I missed a few tiny spots wear the scratches of the rougher paper show... I used a light and blew the dust off...but when the oil hit they showed up...so I will wet sand them with 220 wet and dry and the 400 wet and dry.. the paper clogs with oil... I wish they wern't there..but they bug me.
John, I added a photo to show the finish rubbed out...This is only one coat!It really brings out the beauty of the wood and it is super easy and looks natural

[Jim Becker]

The figure really popped with the T&T, Mark. Wonderful!

[Jerry Clark]

I really like the color and pattern--the ebony really does give it class-- great work Mark.

Jerry

[Mark Singer]

Yesterday, I worked on the headboard, today I worked on the frame. All that is left is mounting the legs, and the headboard. I should have the hardware this week. One photo was before the Tried and True finish...it really makes a difference.

[Keith Christopher]

Mark,

You have inspired me to with with this wood. You work is awesome. one question, the slats that go from the center post to the sides, are they joined to the sides by dowels or M&T ? I don't see a rabbet or ledger board there to hold them. Maybe it is but I didn't notice it.


Keith

[Jim Dunn]

Being a complete newbie I've know idea what it is. If it has an odor it's off limits as my shop is in my basement and I've not developed an exhaust system as of yet. All of my finishing has been relagated to Watco oil which is some what odor free.

My wife has the last word on what I can finish with.

[Mark Singer]

Keith,

There is a 3/4 x 3/4 ledger on the bottom of the side rails...the poplar slats lay on top and I usually screw them so they don't move. You need to coutersink so the mattress doesn't snag on it. Also if you use this wood the key to depth in the finish is getting all the fine scratches out so if you sand make sure before you chenge to the next grit...you "cleared" the surface of coarser skratches. I ended up witha few marking gauge scribes and while they look ok on drawers, I will sand them out. Here is a pic of my own bed structre which is the same.


Mark,

You have inspired me to with with this wood. You work is awesome. one question, the slats that go from the center post to the sides, are they joined to the sides by dowels or M&T ? I don't see a rabbet or ledger board there to hold them. Maybe it is but I didn't notice it.


Keith

[Mark Singer]

Welcome,

T&T is Tried and True it is a finish made with Boiled linseed oil and beeswax available from Lee Valley and other sources. It really builds up fast and is wonderful to the touch


Being a complete newbie I've know idea what it is. If it has an odor it's off limits as my shop is in my basement and I've not developed an exhaust system as of yet. All of my finishing has been relagated to Watco oil which is some what odor free.

My wife has the last word on what I can finish with.

[Jim Dunn]

Mark, does Watco Danish oil qualify as a Tried & True type product? I use it regularly and have no, or very little complaints from SWMBO concerning odors. Watco does not say it is approved by the FDA, in point of fact it says on the can that it contains petroleum distillates. Would a Tried & True product from LV have even less odor?

I hate to take up your time with these questions, but the more I learn, and absorb :), the more I can pass along to my kids and others.

Thank you

[Jim Becker]

Mark, does Watco Danish oil qualify as a Tried & True type product? Tried and True is a brand name and is a very different product than Watco. The latter is a varnish-oil blend that cures to a film finish if you build enough coats. T&T is made with polymerized linseed oil with no metalic driers. There are three formulas...oil only; oil with bee's wax and a varnish oil made with natural resins (tree sap-based) and the polymerized linseed oil. As a complete finish, I love T&T and use it for many items. When I want to use the oil to just "pop" the grain prior to a shellac sealer/toner and some additional clear, durable coating, I use cheap garden-variety BLO from the home center.

T&T is not inexpensive and is "thicker" in consistancy than "regular" BLO. I like to heat it in a water bath to about 135º for nicer penetration, but it goes on great out of the container, too. Personally, I like the straight oil version and the oil/bee's wax version. I don't like the varnish-oil formula for some reason...inconsistant results for me.

Like any oil product, the rags from application need to be disposed of correctly and carefully as they can spontaniously combust if wadded up in a ball. (curing oil generates heat big-time...) I hang my rags on a spike that is outside on the property well away from my shop. (Lint-free paper towels...Scotts "Rags in a Box" from the 'Depot)

BTW, T&T has a slight, but not objectionable odor that is identical to boiled linseed oil (BLO)...it's actually nicer that Watco or any other varnish-oil blend I've ever used. In fact, I have no issue using it indoors in the house during the winter months.

[Jim Dunn]

Jim, thanks for the reply, and Merry Christmas

By the way I looked at your Mini Max post, need to get my wife to look at some of the other shops. She can't see how I can possibly fit another tool in here. Told her I'd figure it out :)

[Mark Singer]

Jim,

You a Tried and True mayven! I use the Original, which is the oil and beeswax. Jim shound I detail the joints with a small radius or leave them square? Because there is no glue or clamps even the best joints have slight vertical gaps..but, I think even a non woodworker senses ita a KD connection.

[Jim Becker]

Jim shound I detail the joints with a small radius or leave them square? Because there is no glue or clamps even the best joints have slight vertical gaps..but, I think even a non woodworker senses ita a KD connection.
Are you refering to the bridle joints in the frame? If so, take your mockup and try it to see which you like better. I suspect that a slight v-grove or round-over effect may aleviate/mask any inconsistancies since as you say, no glue is involved.

[Corvin Alstot]

Are you refering to the bridle joints in the frame? If so, take your mockup and try it to see which you like better. I suspect that a slight v-grove or round-over effect may aleviate/mask any inconsistancies since as you say, no glue is involved.
Is this similar to a greene and greene drawer details but with a smaller radius?

[Mark Singer]

Corvin,

Here is a pic of the detailed joint on my coffee table...it clarifies the KD aspect a bit.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3651&stc=1

Here is the alternate on my bed:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=13700&stc=1

Corvin,
Which do you perfer?



Is this similar to a greene and greene drawer details but with a smaller radius?

[Chris Padilla]

How about a 45 degree bevel instead of a round over?

[Corvin Alstot]

Corvin,

Here is a pic of the detailed joint on my coffee table...it clarifies the KD aspect a bit.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3651&stc=1

Here is the alternate on my bed:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=13700&stc=1

Both actually look very nice, each does give the corner a different look. I am curious to what others think too, but I am leaning to the first example with the small radius.
Maybe for no other reason then I am headed to see the Gamble house next week when I visit my Father in California.

[Jim Becker]

Which do you perfer?
Personally, I like the table version better in some respects for a knock-down joint, either with the roundovers or as Chris suggests, chamfers for an alternative. For this project, a very slight chamfer might look better than the roundovers since it's a more modern looking piece than the table, IMHO. But before you commit to either or nothing, test it out on your mockup of the bridal joint...you can do the top sides with roundovers and the bottom sides with chamfers to compare the "look". The bed as-is serves as your control with no modification.

[Steve Schultz]

Welcome,

T&T is Tried and True it is a finish made with Boiled linseed oil and beeswax available from Lee Valley and other sources. It really builds up fast and is wonderful to the touch
Tried and True can be found at this web site: http://www.triedandtruewoodfinish.com/ or at http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=2&page=45105&category=1,190,42942

[Mark Singer]

Corvin,
If you have time let me know and I would enjoy a creeker visit! ;) I am about 50 miles south of the Gamble House which is in Pasadena. I am in Laguna Beach.


Both actually look very nice, each does give the corner a different look. I am curious to what others think too, but I am leaning to the first example with the small radius.
Maybe for no other reason then I am headed to see the Gamble house next week when I visit my Father in California.

[Mark Singer]

Jim,

That is a good idea to play with the mock-up...thats what it is for. I think I am getting legs and rods to support the back tomorrow evening...Frank called and he will be done with it tomorrow, he lives in Laguna and he brings it to his home and I pick it up. If you ever want anything made he could do it and ship it to you.

[Mark Singer]

Frank came through...stopped by his home and picked up 4 legs and 4 stainless steel rods...it all looks good and now I have a handle on finishing...

[Norman Hitt]

Hi Mark, by the time you get this, you will probably have already tested the joint treatments on the mockup and made a decision, but I will say that I really like the joints on your table the best. I also think (from just a mind's eye picture) that the roundover in that treatment would look better than a chamfer. It would be interesting to see the differences in a pic of your mockup.

I've been silent on this project but it's really looking good in every aspect. I am curious about one thing though. Is there anything that I've missed that ties the foot rail to the headrail solidly, (since there is no glue or mechanical fasteners at the corner joints) in case of Guest induced "longitudinal" movement on the bed? I assume that the center rail dowels are glued only into the center rail, and dry fit into the headrail and footrail. I'm probably wrong, but it seems to me that the possibility for them to slip out of their head and footrail holes does exist under the above mentioned condition.

Norm

Ps: That finish looks so smooth, I'd like to run my hands across it, beautiful.

[Mark Singer]

Norm,

There is a screw running vertical that prevents lateral movement. Here is a detail. This was originally posted long ago as a KD (knock down) joint for one of my pieces...it works well. Remove the screw and the joint comes apart.


Hi Mark, by the time you get this, you will probably have already tested the joint treatments on the mockup and made a decision, but I will say that I really like the joints on your table the best. I also think (from just a mind's eye picture) that the roundover in that treatment would look better than a chamfer. It would be interesting to see the differences in a pic of your mockup.

I've been silent on this project but it's really looking good in every aspect. I am curious about one thing though. Is there anything that I've missed that ties the foot rail to the headrail solidly, (since there is no glue or mechanical fasteners at the corner joints) in case of Guest induced "longitudinal" movement on the bed? I assume that the center rail dowels are glued only into the center rail, and dry fit into the headrail and footrail. I'm probably wrong, but it seems to me that the possibility for them to slip out of their head and footrail holes does exist under the above mentioned condition.

Norm

Ps: That finish looks so smooth, I'd like to run my hands across it, beautiful.

[Norman Hitt]

Norm,

There is a screw running vertical that prevents lateral movement. Here is a detail. This was originally posted long ago as a KD (knock down) joint for one of my pieces...it works well. Remove the screw and the joint comes apart.

Aaah Yes, that would do it, and my fears have been allayed. (I figured you had some sneaky trick hidden somewhere that I had missed). I have seen, (and used a few times) a dry fit, slightly tapered dowel inserted from the top that could be driven out from the bottom, for breakdown, but this is better when you don't want the dowel to show as a decorative accent.

I can't wait to see it all finished and assembled. The back curved headboard reminds me of a bed my wife fell in love with when we stayed at a motel on the Gulf Coast a few years back. They had different antiques in every room of the motel. The bed in our room had a headboard that was made from thin cast iron and had a large radius curve and more than a half roll, back, at the top and a lesser curved roll at each side, and was flared out from about the bed's mattress base, to the top in a gentle curve to a max of about 20* from the bed level to the tip at the top edge. The foot board was similar to the headboard. (It looked neat, but I sure wouldn't have to wanted to move it, 'cause it must've weighed a ton).

[Mark Singer]

My son Ryan came over and we got quite a bit done this evening. I nmade a jig and routed the legs into the rails, squaring with a chisel. 2 small taps with the chisel where the bit enters and exits insures no tear out. Using a vix bit the legs were mounted. Ledgers were cut and mounted and notched for the SS legs.
The pieces were assembled. The 4 stainless rods were inserted ...by using a full length MDF template and mirroring for the headboard, The back seems tall without the mattress...it shouldn't when the mattress is in raising the surface about 7 to 8 ". All that is left is the roundover on the joints , if I do that and cutting the poplar slats....pretty minor...another couple of coats of Tried and True...that is about it!:rolleyes:

[Mark Singer]

A few more Pics

[Allen Grimes]

Wow, that bed looks a hell of a lot better than I thought it would from the initial drawing. I especially like the corners. Very nice work. I have to admit that the headboard looked like it wasn't going to work, but you pulled it off. With that, good night.

[Jim Becker]

Wow! That's really coming together, Mark! Wonderful!

[Dave Richards]

Mark, that is turning out very nice. I like the lighter headboard and the four supports. I'm glad you opted for the stainless legs. I like those better than the round ones. The bridle joint as you've done it is very elegant.

Thanks for keeping us posted on the progress.

dave

[Mark Singer]

Now that it is kind of together...what do you think of the bridal joints ....should I give them a roundover to soften or leave it...or just sand a small reveal/ chamfer?


The height of the back can be lowered by cutting the rods or drilling deeper...I will probably wait for the mattress...any opinions on the height of the back now?

[Jim Becker]

Now that it is kind of together...what do you think of the bridal joints ....should I give them a roundover to soften or leave it...or just sand a small reveal/ chamfer?I think they need to be "Treated" with something to define the edge of the joints and mask the fact that they are not glued. Due to the general angular nature of the whole project, I'd go with the chamfer. The only radiuses you have at present is the sweep of the back and that's not a "detail" level feature like these joints are.



The height of the back can be lowered by cutting the rods or drilling deeper...I will probably wait for the mattress...any opinions on the height of the back now?Without the mattress in place, the back naturally seems too tall. I think you need to have that important component before you can make a final judgment....and suggest you get some dowel stock the same diameter as the SS so you can experiement before committing the steel to a particular length.

[John Miliunas]

That's really turning out pretty slick, Mark!:) Jim has a good eye for this and I concur; To my eye, the bridal joints are a key feature and a slight chamfer would tend to highlight that.:)

Ditto on the headboard, too. Really a bit tough to visualize without something physically taking up the space right there. Even a cardboard mock-up to the proper mattress and bedding height could probably serve well as a visual reference point.

BTW, I seem to recall Ryan being kind of a regular here at SMC! I haven't "seen" him around for quite some time. Jeeeez...I hope we didn't offend him or something like that! I always felt he added a unique perspective to many of the threads. That and I think he hung around to keep his dad "honest", but that's just another view! :D :cool:

[Mark Singer]

BTW, I seem to recall Ryan being kind of a regular here at SMC! I haven't "seen" him around for quite some time. Jeeeez...I hope we didn't offend him or something like that! I always felt he added a unique perspective to many of the threads. That and I think he hung around to keep his dad "honest", but that's just another view! :D :cool:
John....He has women and yoga in his life! Inteesting combination if you think about it....I'm getting distracted....
He actually has a project...a bed also that he will be making and I bet he would enjoy either doing a "blow by blow" like I am doing or at least some progress pics and the finalle....I may even give ham a hand It is his own design and "mom" can't stand it! I like it though!:D

[Mark Singer]

I cut and drilled the slats tonight and installed the Jim Becker leg (His idea and a good one) I tried a minor chamfering on my mock up joint and it looked pretty nice...I am still thinking...we are looking for mattress sales:)

[Keith Christopher]

Mark,


Wonderful job ! The bed looks AWESOME.


Keith

[Corvin Alstot]

I cut and drilled the slats tonight and installed the Jim Becker leg (His idea and a good one) I tried a minor chamfering on my mock up joint and it looked pretty nice...I am still thinking...we are looking for mattress sales:)
Mark/
When you say chamfer are you indicating a 45 degree edge?

The scale of the radius or chamfer probably needs to be on the small size given the clean lines of the design. I like the rounded edge over a chamfer as it gives the corner and joint a softer appearance, and contracts the square edges of the steel legs. Just a thought. I think your mock-up will convince you on the proper direction.
Looking forward to seeing the completed bed in its environment.

By the way, will the furniture where this bed resides have any influence on this joint detail? Just a thought.

Corvin

[Christopher Pine]

Very Nice Job Mark! That stainless really does look nice! More than I thought it would!
Be sure to give another pic when it is in its place with the bed all made up!

Merry Christmas

Chris

[Tom LaRussa]

Louis, I am not sure I still may use the wood...I have elected to work around the dilema by doing other things...still a bit in the design stage and that is a good lesson for those who run into this...make the parts you are sure of...the small mock upwas tellimg...I did not like the cap

The joinery on a bed must be detailed for "Knock Down" KD so the joinery must be strong and yet not glued...it is a good test of a good fit and design with no glue to fill in gaps
Mark,

I'm no engineer, but that center beam looks like it might need a little something to keep it from sagging in the middle of that long run.(?)

[Mark Singer]

I did end up using a center leg...its complete now and I will post the final pics once I find a mattress. You and Jim Becker were correct the center leg does help!

[Chris Yarish]

Just hoping to bump this thread up.

I'm still in the works of getting a platform bed together and would like this as a guide.
I'd hate to see this thread die in my time of need.

[John Miliunas]

Just hoping to bump this thread up.

I'm still in the works of getting a platform bed together and would like this as a guide.
I'd hate to see this thread die in my time of need.

Hey Chris, I can personally attest to the fact that, not only is that bed beautiful to look at, but it's comfortable, as well!:D :) :cool:

[Mark Singer]

John,
I could use you....I was working a little today...the doors we made have glass and stops and are looking good....I have 8 to go..Chris,
This is a similar project that you may have missed and there is a thread with the construction also..

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=15393&highlight=bed

[John Miliunas]

John,
I could use you....I was working a little today...the doors we made have glass and stops and are looking good....I have 8 to go..Chris,
This is a similar project that you may have missed and there is a thread with the construction also..

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=15393&highlight=bed



Mark,
Would've loved to have been there to give you a hand! (High 80's and muggy up here!:mad: ) Oh well. Turn on the AC and continue. Started the hallway bench project. Sent you an email, but I guess you must be "John'ed out"!:D

Anyhow, Chris...Follow Mark's lead and you'll end up with a nice piece of furniture!:) All of the work I saw last weekend done by Mark was of the highest caliber and, at least for me, something to strive for! :) :cool:

[Chris Yarish]

80's and muggy?
We're getting our first taste of winter...calling for 20-30 cm of snow 70km west of me.
Right now it's about 4 celcius (around 40 F)...and some of the rain looks like, gulp....snow!

[John Miliunas]

80's and muggy?
We're getting our first taste of winter...calling for 20-30 cm of snow 70km west of me.
Right now it's about 4 celcius (around 40 F)...and some of the rain looks like, gulp....snow!

Brrrrrr!!!! Well, OK. Not that cold, yet, but I'm really, really NOT looking forward to this Winter! With fuel prices, such as they are and rising,:eek: I'm hoping it stays warm for a long, long time! Like, I could see 60's or even 50's through about next April or so!:D :cool: