Talk to me about Radial Arm Saws

[Lee Ludden]

I see quite a few used RAS's for sale on Craigslist, but I know next to nothing about them. I would be using it as a dedicated crosscut station, and purchasing it used (and then only if its a really good deal).

What should I be keeping my eye out for?

Thanks

[Matt Logana]

I see quite a few used RAS's for sale on Craigslist, but I know next to nothing about them. I would be using it as a dedicated crosscut station, and purchasing it used (and then only if its a really good deal).

What should I be keeping my eye out for?

Thanks


Ensure it has guards
Ensure its not a recalled model
Ensure its not a 70s-now Craftsman
Ensure its ways are rust free
Ensure it moves smooth
Ensure it works
Ensure it has a splitter/kickback fingers incase you ever rip something on it.

Look for attachments (Chuck, Planer, Drum Sander, Router Collet, et cetera)
Look for DeWalts
Look for Single Phase Models(Early models were used 99% of the time in industrial environments.

Look for low price: I see a bunch of craftsman go on sale for about $25 on CL once a day... atleast...

[James Baker SD]

Matt:
Why the dislike of Craftsman? Are the Craftsman saws just bad, or did they have a particular flaw? Just looked at CL here and 3/4 of the RAS were Craftsman. Does make one a bit suspicious.
James

[Matt Logana]

During the 70s and 80s Craftsman was manufactured by a company which trashed the name. Their tools wouldnt cut straight, and they were dangerous as all hell. I have used one of their table saws... and its a death-trap....

Now days, I hear that their RAS still dont cut straight.... as they lose alignment quick.. as in a couple of passes quick...

[Van Huskey]

Matt:
Why the dislike of Craftsman? Are the Craftsman saws just bad, or did they have a particular flaw? Just looked at CL here and 3/4 of the RAS were Craftsman. Does make one a bit suspicious.
James


Craftsman RAS are the weakest of the breed. However, for a pure crosscut (stays at 90*) they can be decent if you know how to tune them. As a fine woodworking tool the Dewalts Omga etc are light years beyond them. They are so many for sale (Cmans) because there were so many made and RAS in general have fallen out of favor. A quality RAS is second only to a router in versatility, for me the Cman makes a fine crosscut station with a good blade and some common sense BUT if you want one to do the myriad things a RAS can do look for a quality saw they cost more are harder to find and often 3 phase.

[Mike Heidrick]

If you ever see a heavy duty Dewalt or Delta or Original Saw Co or other Euro industrial you realize what the RAS was intended to be. Post 70s Craftsman models and their copies :rolleyes: jaded that poor tool. Many sacrifices have been made in the cheaper ones.

Many industrial radial arm saws have replaceable carriage ways and really all wear items are replaceable so they will live on likely forever. Many go for much more than $25-$100 though although some folks may not realize what they are selling so deals can be found. Weight and size may be an issue. Capacity is a lot higher on the larger saws though and with the large ones you will get to 1" arbors very quick.

[Mike Harrison]

Craftsman/emerson electric was by far the most prolific manufacturer of Radial arm saws in the world, which is why they are the most often seen for sale. Sears Radials after the 70s did take a few hits in the quality/reputation arena and definately fell from favor, aided by the increasing availability of inexpensive import table saws. Keep in mind however, the RAS was the only power tool in the hobby woodworkers shop for decades, and weren't the Man Killers many would have you believe.

I had one of Sears' radial saws from the 70s for many years and it was extremely reliable and very seldom needed attention. It was given to me by a friend who was uncomfortable with it. I used it for about 8 years and gave it to another member on woodnet when I bought my Delta Turret RAS. Once set up, I'd check it maybe once a year along with the TS and other power tools, just to be sure all was well. Truthfully though, if you have a tool, any tool, that starts cutting out of square you'll know as soon as it starts.

http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv62/mikeinkcmo/WW%20tools/RAS%20Miter%20bench/shophousepics055.jpg

The setup procedure for a RAS is in the manual, and, if understood and followed correctly, the saw should give you years of good service. There is no more "magic" involved with a RAS than any other tool, and as usual, the most dangerous component is the operator.

[Will Overton]

The reason there are more Craftsman ras's for sale, is that there were more of these sold to hobbyists than any other brand. I remember back in the 60's, 70's and 80's, if you needed a tool, you went to Sears. My 80's Craftsman ras served me well until 2005 and has been in constant use by a friend of mine ever since. The problem isn't so much about keeping alignment as going back into alignment after swinging the arm to cut miters.

The recall, which is ongoing, is simply about adding a lower blade guard, not because of any inherent defect. The saw I had qualified and Emerson sent a new blade guard and new table. Some older saws can't be retrofitted, so Emerson will pay $100 if the motor is sent in. They provide a postage paid box.

There is a perception that the ras is dangerous, perpetuated to a large extent (IMHO) by folks who never used one, or never learned to properly use one. They may be dangerous, but no more so than a table saw. You must take care.

Two strengths of the ras are cutting long boards and dadoes. Long boards are easier to cut than on a table saw, because you don't move the board. Dadoes, particularly those wider than the dado cutter, are easier than on a table saw because you can see exactly where you are cutting.

I'm not saying that an older DeWalt or Delta (my current saw is a newer Delta) aren't tougher than a Craftsman. The Craftsman 10" ras was not targeted to the commercial applications. I am pretty sure that the Craftsman saws suffer more from people who never used one repeating what the heard, possibly from someone else who never used one, than from the actual performance of the machine.

What ever you wind up with, follow Norm's prime directive ... Read, understand and follow the manufacturer's instructions.

[Peter Quinn]

Look for an old dewalt in decent shape. The cmans are,well, something less than what a ras shoult be IMO. Remember the Yugo? Same build quality as the cman saw! Just that fewer people bought them. Wouldn't! Trust my life to either.

A good new Ras like a delta or original saw is going to cost you upwards of $3k, and for a good reason. It's a fairly complicated machine and requires a solid build quality to work properly. The cheepo models cman made just weren't robust enough for much more than construction cuts. Frankly I,d rather have a good skill saw with a big speed square as a guide. My dad has the cman from the late 1970's, and it ain't cute.

[Bill Leonard]

My first powered saw years ago was a Craftsman RAS. I hated it. Didn't trust it to cut straight and subsequently did not use it. I eventually purchased a SCMS and was inthralled with its performance. I actually wound up with three CMS's. Recently, on a whim, I purchased an old Dewalt 8in RAS at auction. Took the time to set it up correcctly with a proper blade and made a few test cuts. All three SCMS are now shelved and the RAS has a place of honor in my shop along with my PM66 and Delta. A finely tuned RAS is a great addition to a table saw. It is much more stable than a SCMS, and I believe more accurate. If you have the room I highly recommend a RAS along with a good cabinet saw, or two. One for dadoes, one for rips, and the RAS for the rest.

[Joseph Tarantino]

check out this video regarding what to check on a RAS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKSkZ1vAzNc

also, once you find one, here is a pretty good article on tune up procedures:

http://eberhardt.bz/GME_Wood_Land/GME_Woodworking_Stuff/2_Tool_Tune_Ups/7_Tuneup_Radial.pdf

if you can find a c-man from with a cast iron column support, it will serve you well. i have one from the mid 60s which was a cast off from a neighbor.

after investing the time to dial it in, the saw has become one of my favorite tools. and conventional kickback isn't much of a concern as this video demonstrates ( and the hands are not as close to the blade as the video makes it look):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8In_nKqW1DA

i recently purchased another c-man RAS with an eye towards setting up three of them for dedicated crosscuts and opposing miters. the saw was a newer model but the motor carriage slid on the arm via friction pads, not ballbearing rollers. it could be moved around easily and i ultimately sent it to emerson for the recall payment.

FWIW, i try to never move my RAS from 90*. i built a jig facilitating left and right 45* cuts so i wouldn't have to rotate the arm. now it is accurate to 1/128" over a 10" crosscut. good luck with your search.

[David Winer]

The reason there are more Craftsman ras's for sale, is that there were more of these sold to hobbyists than any other brand. I remember back in the 60's, 70's and 80's, if you needed a tool, you went to Sears. My 80's Craftsman ras served me well until 2005 and has been in constant use by a friend of mine ever since. The problem isn't so much about keeping alignment as going back into alignment after swinging the arm to cut miters.

The recall, which is ongoing, is simply about adding a lower blade guard, not because of any inherent defect. The saw I had qualified and Emerson sent a new blade guard and new table. Some older saws can't be retrofitted, so Emerson will pay $100 if the motor is sent in. They provide a postage paid box.

There is a perception that the ras is dangerous, perpetuated to a large extent (IMHO) by folks who never used one, or never learned to properly use one. They may be dangerous, but no more so than a table saw. You must take care.

Two strengths of the ras are cutting long boards and dadoes. Long boards are easier to cut than on a table saw, because you don't move the board. Dadoes, particularly those wider than the dado cutter, are easier than on a table saw because you can see exactly where you are cutting.

I'm not saying that an older DeWalt or Delta (my current saw is a newer Delta) aren't tougher than a Craftsman. The Craftsman 10" ras was not targeted to the commercial applications. I am pretty sure that the Craftsman saws suffer more from people who never used one repeating what the heard, possibly from someone else who never used one, than from the actual performance of the machine.

What ever you wind up with, follow Norm's prime directive ... Read, understand and follow the manufacturer's instructions.
Will has described the situation exactly right. I bought my 12" Craftsman in the early 70s after reading in the Sears tool catalog all the wonderful things it could do. I believed the hype, and proceeded to make all sorts of things, from a garden tool shed to excellent furniture. I didn't know any better and learned to live with the limitations of this jack-of-all-trades machine.

I no longer use it for sanding, routing, drilling, and who knows what else it has been "designed" to do, but it still works beautifully for many woodworking situations in conjunction with my newer top-quality machines. This includes cross cutting and yes, ripping. (It's splitter is really good, but must be used according to the directions to reset it for each board thickness--easily accomplished.) If I need to use it for precise cuts I check alignment and adjust before starting the project.

Yesterday I sent its 60 tooth blade off for sharpening. No, it's not even a negative hook angle blade, but I long ago learned to keep pressure on the handle while pulling through cross cuts. (Only recently learned through this forum about special designs for RAS blades.)

[Rich Engelhardt]

What should I be keeping my eye out for?
Due to the sheer volume of them in the market place, I've been looking at them myself.

Above all - run, don't walk away from any Ryobi you see offered.

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml06/06212.html

That's a tad more excitement than I really want out of WW'ing.

[Myk Rian]

Get a DeWalt. A MBC is 1/2hp and a MBF is 3/4hp.
There are larger ones.
Rebuild it. That way you will learn all about it.
Buy the Mr Sawdust book at www.mrsawdust.com (http://www.mrsawdust.com)

I was afraid of my RAS until I restored it. Now I love it.
http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad222/MykRian/DeWalt%20MBF%20RAS/avatar1.jpg

[Will Overton]

My first powered saw years ago was a Craftsman RAS. I hated it. Didn't trust it to cut straight and subsequently did not use it. I eventually purchased a SCMS and was inthralled with its performance. I actually wound up with three CMS's. Recently, on a whim, I purchased an old Dewalt 8in RAS at auction. Took the time to set it up correcctly with a proper blade and made a few test cuts. All three SCMS are now shelved and the RAS has a place of honor in my shop along with my PM66 and Delta. A finely tuned RAS is a great addition to a table saw. It is much more stable than a SCMS, and I believe more accurate. If you have the room I highly recommend a RAS along with a good cabinet saw, or two. One for dadoes, one for rips, and the RAS for the rest.

That brings up another good point. For many, it was for me, the ras was my first big power tool. How many folks knew enough to take the time to really set up their first saw properly. I went through the checks called for in the instruction book, but for what I was doing at the time, finishing a basement, the stock blade was good enough, and I never would have guessed that 1/32" could make a difference. :o

It was only after the basement, including a 12' x 18' shop was completed that I realized the saw was not properly set up to cut joinery. Instead of saying this pos sucks, I learned and put in the time to do it right, paying close attention to detail. Many folks, I'm sure, didn't make the effort until years later when they bought their second ras, making that saw much better. :) Could it be they better understood their needs and how to achieve them by then?

Just something to think about.

[Mitchell Andrus]

What should I be keeping my eye out for?



A miter saw.
.

[Steve Garrison]

I have an old DeWalt RAS that I bought used about 10 years ago. A very nice machine to use as long as it is setup properly. I do most of my cross cutting now with a Makita sliding miter saw though, but prefer the RAS for grooves because the height adjustment is much more solid.

[paul dyar]

One of the woodworking magazines (I think it was Wood Magazine) did a review on radial arm saws in the early 90s. Craftsman was one of the top-rated saws. I opted to go with the SCM at the time. I will look tomorrow and see if I can find the review.
Paul

[Chip Lindley]

Originally Posted by Lee Ludden http://sawmillcreek.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=1495240#post1495240)
What should I be keeping my eye out for?


A miter saw.
.

A miter saw won't mount a dado set!

I was the proud owner of a Sears 10" RAS, bought new, in 1977, until last year. Once set up and adjusted, it crosscut accurately! But, I dared not move it off it's perfect 90 deg. setting. Once moved, it had to be dialed in again completely. Not a versitile or fun machine. The 3/4" hp motor barely had enough power IF I babied it through 4/4 oak.

I replaced the Sears with a Delta 33-790 12" RAS and never looked back. It is lightyears ahead of all but the oldest CI Craftsman RASs. Keep a lookout for a Rockwell/Delta 12" RAS (single-phase motor) and you won't regret it.
http://www.owwm.com/photoindex/images/9833-A.jpg
Sears did (IMO) sell one keeper 12" (Industrial) RAS. Not made by Emerson of aluminum, but made by DeWalt (model 7790) of CI. Quite a saw! I've seen these at bargain prices on CL. Keep your eye out!
http://www.owwm.com/photoindex/images/10845-A.jpg
Sears version was identical black, except had "Craftsman Industrial" on the arm.

[Greg Urwiller]

I wish I knew which Craftsman model I had...bought it back sometime in the 70's. I know it was one of their larger/better models offered at that time. All I can remember is that big aluminum handle on it. Anyway, I'm sure I slapped it together, checked it for square, and started cutting. Never looked back. Don't remember if I ever cussed it out for not doing an accurate job or not. I do know I'd like to get one for my new shop, would like to find an old Delta/Dewalt/Rockwell of course. I sold the Craftsman to a close friend, don't know if he still has it cause we haven't talked about it for years. I should stop by or call him to see if he still has it. Quite honestly I'd be more than willing to buy it back just to check it out! Hmmmm, think I will. Greg

[Richard Gibson]

I have a Craftsman I bought new in the late 70's. Converted it to 220 about 20 years ago. Still going strong and is a great saw.

[Lee Ludden]

I have been seeing a lot of the Dewalt 770 (or is it 7770). How do these compare?

The 10" seem most common with the 12" being far more rare (and expensive).

[Neal Clayton]

in addition to the dewalts, check for unipoints, there are some older small ones out there every now and then. i would consider those superior, actually. every now and then a 30+ year old one shows up on exfactory or similar sites for around 1k, if you can find an old monarch model from before the northfield buyout, probably even less than 500 (i got mine for 300).