Use a smoothing plane AND sand after? Why?

[Mike Zilis]

I've only recently incorporated hand planes into my building routine. Prior, I used power tools for dimensioning and then various levels of sanding (belt, ROS, hand, drum, etc.) to prep the surface for finishing. After reading (and appreciating) a few James Krenov books I looked forward to replacing as much sanding with hand planing as possible.

I've recently noticed a number of posts here on the Creek that mention going from a smoothing plane to sand paper. Is this typical? Do you find it necessary to sand after a smoothing plane? Or do you do this because you don't trust the hand planed surface?

Am I naive to think that a beginner hand plane user could do away with sanding those flat surfaces that a smoothing plane excels at?

Thanks,

Mike

[Jim Koepke]

I have done away with most of my sanding.

As far as not trusting the planed surface, sometimes it might need a little roughness added with the sand paper to hold the finish if you are using something that doesn't penetrate real well.

There are many ways to accomplish a smooth surface and they are all OK. Some woods will surface fine with planes and some need a little more coaxing.

jim

[dan grant]

not sure if a beginner can get a finished surface with the plane, i can do smaller widths but the larger pieces i tend to leave tracks, takes a little skill with sharpening reading grain etc but we gotta start somewhere

[Harlan Barnhart]

Mike, as I get more experience, I sand less and less but I always end up sanding something on every project. There always seems to be some reversing grain somewhere. I use steel wool in the finishing too. Sandpaper is just another tool in my book. If you know how and when to use it, you'll be ahead of the game.

[Mark Stutz]

Mike,
On a smaller surface with "normal grain" (is there such a piece of wood?:eek:) I can go from plane to finish since I'm often using something like a danish oil or blo type finish. If I've had some tearout, and have cleaned it up with a scraper, the surface is usually a bit different and I may even things out with some 220 on a sanding block. To me the difference is a few swipes with a sanding block and no dust mask or hearing protection, versus going thru all the grits,cleaning in between grits, carpal tunnel from the ROS, etc. As Harlan said, it's just another tool.

Mark

[Stuart Tierney]

If possible, I'll plane and then finish and call it good, because it invariably is.

But, as Mike said, if you need to break out a scraper, then all that planing work is for naught, because the scraped areas will be vastly different than the planed areas.

I'm out of practice of late, but I do know that if required, there is no piece of wood I have touched that I can't handplane to finish. That includes some incredibly nasty stuff, and still planed to finish.

But when the job is large, and time is short, get it close then even it out with the ROS and a #320 pad. Might not look as nice, but only someone with equal to or better skills than your own would probably notice it. ;)


And yes, as Harlan said, sandpaper is just another tool in the drawer. An easy tool to drive, but one that everyone from the greenest newbie to the big name professional still keeps a current license for.

[David Keller NC]

I've recently noticed a number of posts here on the Creek that mention going from a smoothing plane to sand paper. Is this typical? Do you find it necessary to sand after a smoothing plane? Or do you do this because you don't trust the hand planed surface?

Am I naive to think that a beginner hand plane user could do away with sanding those flat surfaces that a smoothing plane excels at?

Thanks,

Mike

No - you're not naive. Generally speaking, I don't sand much of anything - it all gets finished with a handplane, and sometimes a scraper if there are small areas of tear-out.

However, there are some special cases. Specifically, it is sometimes dang near impossible to finish plane a specific piece of wood without any tear-out because of wild figuring and difficult grain, and a scraper is inconvenient because of the small size of the part and/or difficult geometry.

Also, I'll note that I don't use pigment stain on my pieces. That's the one case where finish planing doesn't play nice. What tends to happen is that the wood under the center of the sole of the plane becomes very slick from burnishing, whereas the wood at the edges of the iron don't. That doesn't matter with a penetrating oil finish, or a film finish like shellac. I've also not had an issue using a dye stain with no insoluble content. But - a finish-planed surface tends to hold more pigment particles on the edges of the cutting stroke versus the center of the cut, so when using an oil stain with insoluble little pigment particles, you can wind up with a streaked appearance.

[Andrew Gibson]

The more work I do the less I end up sanding. I have done away with 99% of all power sanding. In fact I think the last 5 or 6 pieces I have made have had no power sanding done at all.

I have found that I as the amonut of finish plaining I do goes up the less sandpaper I use on my sanding block. The last couple small projects I have done have gotten a touch with 220 grit and then a coat of finish.

I have a cabinet scraper that still needs some work to be good. The blade was very out of flat when I got it, and I still need to spend some time polishing it up. My #3 is a bit small for large projects, something in the size range of a #4.5 is at the top of the purchase list.

[Tony Shea]

I agree in that a #4.5 would be ideal and is on the purchase immediatly list. Just the extra width would do wonders for the smoothing proccess.

For the original post, I don't remember really any project that I have been able to skip sandpaper all together. I have though done many projects of late without the ROS and plan to keep that thing put away for as long as possible. I hate using the ROS. I also rarely have to use any paper below 220 grit since my handplanning techniques have soared. Like has been stated you will almost never find perfect peices of hardwood, especially interesting peices, that don't have some trouble grain spots that require a bit of scraping. And scraping is not even close to the polished texture left by a smoother therefore end up having to sand to a polish in the tough areas. There are also those areas that you just can't get into with a blade that may require a little blending with the rest of the area, such as softened edges that meet at a 90* or different.

[Tri Hoang]

I typically lightly sand with 220 grit after planing on certain pieces for the reason that David mentioned - the plane sometime burnished/crushed the grain a little. Frank Kaulsz recommends the same thing in his finishing video. If I must use the scraper on the piece then I always follow up with 220 grit hand sanding.

[steven c newman]

to sandpaper, glass. A nice fresh cut edge on a piece of glass. I can get into places a plane can't, and still leave plane-smooth surface. Ease a corner? Glass it.:)

[James Taglienti]

I will usually hand sand @ 320 grit after using a plane or scraper. It seems that grinding all those loose fibers into the pores makes the wood take a stain more evenly. I use smooth planes because they're faster, and more enjoyable, than a belt sander.

[John Coloccia]

I typically lightly sand with 220 grit after planing on certain pieces for the reason that David mentioned - the plane sometime burnished/crushed the grain a little. Frank Kaulsz recommends the same thing in his finishing video. If I must use the scraper on the piece then I always follow up with 220 grit hand sanding.

Yes, this is why I do it. This is different than traditional sanding, though. Usually, people sand to smooth out the surface, remove irregularities, etc. After planing, I sand lightly simply to prepare the surface for finishing. The job of the smoothing plane is to give me a surface that I don't have to shape with abrasives. I'm not shaping anymore at this point. If I'm going to French polish, I won't bother with sanding at all if I've done a good job smoothing (and that's a different thread entirely! It's not easy sometimes :D)

I hope that makes sense.

[steven c newman]

Most any piece of glass will do, as long as a straight edge can be cut on it. A broken window? A few glass scrapers. A Glass Shop might have a "scrap bin" of cut-offs, that they will let you have, cheap.

A normal glass cutter is enough to cut most pieces of glass. Dip the cutter in some kerozene ( or others like it) to clean the cutter. Use a straight-edge to guide the cutter. All that is needed is to score a line. A small rod placed under the glass along the scored line, add a little downward pressure, and the piece will "snap" on the line.

I use a piece of glass like others use a metal scraper. I'll also use a piece of glass to shape round items, even handles. You can either push or pull the glass, just tip it in the direction you wish to go. Edge getting dull? Simple, cut a new one.

You can also shape the glass into any shape you need. A curved profile, or even a "Multi-form" profile. You can match the glass shape to the shape you are trying to smooth. :cool:

[Richard Niemiec]

Scraper after planing if you need it. Depending on the stain/finish, raise the grain if really necessary with some spit coat shellac for sealing, or mineral spirits and then very lightly (I'll say it again, very lightly) with #0000 steel wool or scotchbrite. Works for me and preserves the hand planed look. Sanding after a proper planed surface has been produced (e.g., you don't have gross issues with the surface) simply trashes the work the plane has done by ripping up the fibers as opposed to slicing them with the edge tool (i.e., the plane and scraper) - you might as well not have bothered with the plane in the first place.

OTOH, a finished surface with some just distinguishable planing/scraping tool marks has its own nuanced look that some prefer. We modern woodworkers get obsessed with smoothness, methinks. YMMV

[David Weaver]

Why do it?

Production (speed) and uniformity. An ROS probably gets rid of minor tearout from orienting boards poorly - and does it very quickly, or minor tearout on woods that don't plane that well.

I don't know how many people do it. I don't, but I've heard someone attribute the saying "plane it, scrape it and sand it, there is no other way" to frank klausz.

There's a difference between what we do in our shops and what someone working on commission or working on a commodity good does, though.

I'd make the same claim that I haven't run into anything that I can't plane, but wilbur sent me some awful wood that I could "almost" plane (I couldn't plane it to the condition where you'd leave it unfinished or just wax it - not even with a 55 degree plane with a mouth smaller than a sheet of office paper - not on the skew, across the piece nor in any direction).

I never got an opinion from him on it after I sent it back. It was, however, a piece of wood that nobody on this board would smooth plane if there were two pieces in a piece glued together and oriented in different directions. It looked better sanded, and was really a nice looking piece of wood. Scraping left a worse surface than sanding, too, as would've a higher angle than 70 degrees. No clue what it was.

[Prashun Patel]

In an ideal world, you don't need to sand after planing or scraping.

However, this requires a perfectly honed edge on your cutting tool. Any scratches on the edge will transfer to the edge. You won't likely see this on raw wood; you will certainly feel it, though. When you finish, you will also notice it visually.

Personally, I use hand tools to do the heavy lifting of material removal, defect fixing, and leveling. I also don't polish my scrapers or plane blades to a mirror edge. Then I use 150-220g on a ROS and finally 220g by hand before I start finishing hardwood.

[Brian Ashton]

For me when I decide to go to the level of sanding or leaving some very slight tool marks is subjective. Sometimes a project looks good with those extra little nuances. Sometimes you want the surface to be absolutely blemish free and you'll be hard pressed to get that straight off the tool... I've even gone to the point of taking a gate leg table down to the beach and standing back and throwing hand fulls of small rocks at it to get an "experienced" look. It's a job by job decision and or where you are in your woodworking journey as to what will be your preference.