Interior Door Joints - Through Tenons & 5" Mortices ??

[Damon Stathatos]

Short story:
Is there a way to cut a 5" deep mortise with some sort of jig/purchased accessory/machine rather than by hand?

Long story:
I have been kicking around the idea of building all of the doors for a 'cabin' remodel using (hard, heavy, dense) exotic tropical hardwoods throughout. I thought that I'd experiment with one door first and then proceed to the remaining twenty three doors after assessing the 'test,' prototype door. The architect has designed a 'basic' rail and stile door with tongue and grooved floating panels (upper and lower).

I've pulled out a book in my library, 'Building Doors and Gates' which shows door construction, design ideas, etc. It calls for a haunch through tenon from the rails into mortices in the stiles, and finally wedges into the tenons from the outside of the stiles. More simply put, a through tenon reinforced with wedges from the outsides of the stiles.

My first thought was that this book must be illustrating door construction to withstand battering rams and/or nuclear attacks but after giving it some thought, I like the idea for a number of reasons (self satisfaction of the joinery as well as 'bulletproof' construction technique to support what will end up to be very heavy doors).

I have researched many morticing machines, jigs, etc., most notably, the Morticing Pal, but nearly all of these stop well short of the 5" depth needed (the width of the stile). Mortice Pal can reach a tad over 2" so I thought that I'd line everything up exact (the benefit of Mortice Pal) and go at it from both sides of the stile. The problem remains the approximate 1" in the middle, which I suppose I could finish-off with a drill/chisel.

Concluding Question:
Has anyone actually ever completed a door such as this absent of hand cut mortices and if so, how did you do it? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Bob Wingard]

I have done this utilizing the method on John Nixon's website (Eagle Lake Woodworking), along with a 1/2"D. X 4" long endmill, working from both sides. You'll need to slow the router down, as the endmill has 4 flutes, but it works like a charm.

[Dave Gaul]

Short story:
Is there a way to cut a 5" deep mortise with some sort of jig/purchased accessory/machine rather than by hand?

Mortice Pal can reach a tad over 2" so I thought that I'd line everything up exact (the benefit of Mortice Pal) and go at it from both sides of the stile. The problem remains the approximate 1" in the middle, which I suppose I could finish-off with a drill/chisel.


What if you used the "extened reach" bits that you can get from moritse pal? They are 3.5" bits, so they might get you closer? Or maybe not with height of the jig?

[Damon Stathatos]

Dave:
I had a bit of a discussion with Rob (very nice guy) at Mortise Pal trying to figure out my options with it and the best we could come up with was the approximate 2" from each side. I guess that even with the extended bit, by the time you subtract for the shank/collet part, the router base, and the jig itself, that's what you're left with. There are even longer bits out there, I found one with an overall length of 4", but apparently stability becomes a problem at a certain point.

Bob:
Great suggestion. I figured that I wasn't the only person around faced with this type of dilemma. I wasn't aware of the Eagle Lake Woodworking site and it looks to be a very good one. I did check out the video on loose tenon joinery and am upset with myself that I hadn't even considered the approach of raising the bit up through the router table in that fashion. Seems obvious now especially considering that I have a router table capable of such (not motorized but a substantial Jessem with the belted adjustment crank). I think that in the absence of the router base plate and third party jig, a 4" overall length upspiral bit should give me enough to get through if attacked from both sides. My last concern is that there is no burning from the spiral bit shank once that enters into the mortice area, something that Rob at Mortice Pal warned against. Regardless, you've given me a solution to try, one that will only risk the cost of the bit, about $55.

I'm definitely going to check out some more of the Eagle Lake site. It looks as if he's developed a horizontal router table and if it opens up possibilities similar to a multi router, I know I'll eventually 'go there,' (last I checked, multi routers were just under $3k). Anyway, thanks again.

Any further suggestions still appreciated as well.

[Chris Padilla]

David Marks always uses his Multi-Router for such things although I don't think I ever saw him drill down 5". Check out his website.

[Neal Clayton]

if this is a specific purpose you're worried about, rather than 3k for a multi router 1500 for a chainsaw mortiser would be a better buy, and does precisely this function (through tenons).

[Sam Layton]

Damon,

I built a door with floating tenons using a multi-router. It worked great. I could have gone close to 5" if not 5". Do a search, Interior door build, if you would like to see my set up.

Sam

[Sam Layton]

To search, Interior door build, you need to go to Woodworking Projects, to do the search.

Sam

[Rod Sheridan]

Damon, I made interior doors using bridle joints, I'm sure they're still standing.

They were cut with a handsaw, chisel and shoulder plane.

If I was to do it now, I would use a shaper, however I didn't have one 30 years ago.

Regards, Rod.

[Shawn Pixley]

My powermatic mortised will cut 5" motives. You may have to flip the stock depending upon the bit size. I built doors and gates this way.

Even if you can't completely get the depth with a tool, finishing up the inside by hand isn't very difficult.

[Damon Stathatos]

Cris
To the best of my knowledge a multi router's depth limitation would be the same as a table router resulting in the need to cut from both sides of the stiles. I checked out David Mark's site but didn't find anything on his multi router, although I do remember his show on it as well. I did watch his 'buying' trip videos again because some of my cocobolo was in it and I always get a kick out of seeing it (he was amazed at the sizes of coco).

Neal
A chainsaw mortiser is an interesting idea. I had thought that they were more in the $3k range (I had only known of Mafell's chain mortiser) but now realize that Makita makes one for around $1.5k. It may be a last resort although I'd still like to try to find another (less expensive) solution. Anyone have a chainsaw mortiser laying around that they'd care to rent out for a while?

Rod
I had considered bridal joints as well but unless I use a T-bridal joint for the lock rail, I'd be in the same boat as before (for that specific rail) and I'm not sure that I'd like the looks of that. In addition, I'd be wary losing more than half the thickness at that location as it is the stile that I'm most worried about moving away from flat.

Shawn
I don't know what it is about me and mortising machines (the 'drill press' type) but I find it incredibly difficult to keep the mortises evenly cut as I progress along the length. That's the reason why I was originally looking more towards a router-type solution.


Sam
A very interesting project of yours, indeed (I ended up finding it by going to your 'statistics' page under your public profile). You are living proof that this is possible (I've had my doubts on the subject).

I'm going to kick around the laminate idea. I think I'd prefer trying to keep them solid but no question laminating would greatly decrease the chances of 'shape shifting.' I'm starting out with 8/4 stock so unlike you, I'd need to mill it down and then put it back together, another thing that I would prefer to avoid, if possible. I'll see how the first door comes out as solid construction and then go from there.

Another great idea was the wood I-beam and if I do laminate, that's a most definite keeper. I had considered throwing together a torsion box (another David Marks episode) to achieve the complete door flatness.

It's hard for me to tell from your pictures if you did achieve a 5" depth mortise. You used floating tenons so I'm not sure if you were referring to a 5" overall tenon depth (split between rail and stile) or a full 5" through the complete stile. Some of your pictures showing the exposed tenons look like they're pretty long however. The longest bit I can find is from Infinity at 4" overall length which would give somewhere just under or around 2.5" depth, I think.

I've bookmarked your thread as there is invaluable info as my project proceeds (finishing the panels before assembly, etc). I'll probably start PM'ing you as well but if I get too pesty, just let me know. Some people say that I'm likable enough but that's probably only when I'm around to hear it.

Personal stuff: The class at Cerritos, was that with Tony Fortner? I know he teaches a Morris Chair class and you had referenced a chair class in your thread. I took his 'Wood Appreciation' class three or four years ago which was the beginning of this, what seems to be eternal, 'cabin' remodel. Unlike you however, I at least have my primary residence which is livable, despite all of the deferred maintenance. Someone had mentioned Upland in your follow-up thread, do you live near Upland? I'm in Sierra Madre (right next to Pasadena) so if you ever get the chance, I't be a pleasure to meet you, we have good lunch places in Sierra Madre. I'd like to show you my shop and woods as well and it'd be great to meet someone who 'hangs' with William Ng. If you have any interest, you can check out my 'website' (my web skills are about near my woodworking skills so don't expect too much from the site itself):

http://web.me.com/damonstats/Sierra_Madre_Sawing_%26_Milling/Welcome.html

Again, thanks to all, you've all helped out my prep and thoughts on this project. I'll begin to post pictures as it progresses and when I'm back begging for more help on the subject.

[John Thompson]

Tough nut to crack.. I have an Industrial floor morticer that would allow 5" or much more "if" I could find hollow mortise chisels with a cutting head that would allow that deep. My current CMT bits will only allow about 4" cutting depth before the bit bottoms out. My solution at the moment without hunting down bits would be to go 4" and finish off with a brad bit to 5" and then clean out by hand.

Good luck...

[Jerome Hanby]

Dave:
I had a bit of a discussion with Rob (very nice guy) at Mortise Pal trying to figure out my options with it and the best we could come up with was the approximate 2" from each side. I guess that even with the extended bit, by the time you subtract for the shank/collet part, the router base, and the jig itself, that's what you're left with. There are even longer bits out there, I found one with an overall length of 4", but apparently stability becomes a problem at a certain point.



I've definitely seen stability issues with long bits. My problems were with a Woodcraft branded bit, so the problems may be less with better brands, but I suspect any long bit is going to be problematic. I guess get the largest diameter straight bit that's practical and hope for the best...

[Alan Schwabacher]

Is a glue line on the door edge a deal killer? If you laminate the stock to get the door thickness, you could cut a dado into one piece, then glue on the other to make it into a through mortise.

[Sam Layton]

Hi Damon,

I don't remember how long I made the mortises in my door. I just checked the cutter I used. It is 5" overall, it will go 4" deep. Laguna has mortise cutter that are longer. Check them out.

I have take several classes with Tony Fortner. He is a great guy. I am going to go back to Cerritos some day I hope. I sure enjoyed the classes there.

We are neighbors. I live in Glendora, Ca, just down the street from you. It would be great to get together. It would be a pleasure to meet you, and I would love to see your shop, and hear about your cabin remodel. PM me anytime, and I hope we can get together soon.

Sam

[Peter Quinn]

You could take a look around for a used powermatic chain mortiser, a floor model with a foot pedal. I see them on exfactory regularly. It might serve you better than one of those makitas made for timber framing. It seems you could also do this with a good drill press coming from both sides. I'm not sure I understand the need for a 5" wedged through tenon on a passage door? Perhaps a 3 1/2" deep tenon with draw bored pegs might give sufficient strength without the struggle to make such deep through tenons.

[Frank Drew]

Damon,

I do think that a through-wedged mortise and tenon joint is the gold standard for doors, although I agree with Peter that there not as commonly done with interior (passage) doors as with heavier exterior doors. But you did say that you were thinking of making heavy doors, so what the hey? Be prepared for more work, though, because you have to flare out the mortises to the outside to accommodate the wedges, and without a lot of jigging that will probably be hand done.

I'd prepare your stock precisely, mark the joints out well, and then come in from both sides.

23 doors... some cabin :rolleyes:.