What kind of "mahogany" is this?

[Dan Friedrichs]

My lumberyard (Frank Paxton lumber) has a product they call "Paxton Mahogany", which was on sale for $3/bdft. They said it was a South American import, but knew nothing else about it. Can anyone tell me more about what this wood actually is?

[Jim Rimmer]

Looks like Lauan or sometimes referred to as Phillipine mahogany to me. This picture is a little darker than your sample. It is available in different shades.
http://www.woodfinder.com/woods/scans/lauan.jpg (http://www.woodfinder.com/search.php?search=Lauan)

[John Coloccia]

My guess would be Khaya.

[Mike Cruz]

+1 on the Phillipine Mahogany.

[Stuart Gardner]

I bought a pile of Mahogany from Paxton (Denver) about six years ago and made a sideboard/hutch/bookcase thing out of it. I'm pretty sure it's what most people call African Mahogany. I personally think it's quite nice, and everybody who's seen it likes it a lot, but it's the only Mahogany project I've ever done, so what do I know. I found the wood to be very workable and stable after I machined it, and it matched up with the mahogany plywood very well. But anyway, the grain pattern on your picture is not the long grains that I had in the African that I bought.

[george wilson]

Looks like Phillipine to me also,but there are so many species floating around these days.it could be hard to tell. Anyway,the wood in question has no character or interesting features.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Anyway,the wood in question has no character or interesting features.

No, George, how do you REALLY feel about it? :D

Having looked at some pictures, I'm hesitant to agree that it's phillipine mahogany, mostly because they had a huge stack of this stuff, and it was all the same color, which appears to be much lighter than the phillipine stuff.

Also, they said it's from South America.

It's quite hard - I'm thinking about building a desk.

[Damon Stathatos]

There's a guy in Fiji with plantation grown swietenia macrophylla (which is, technically, 'genuine honduran mahogany'). Since it's plantation grown (optimized for fast growth by keeping any light robbing sources away from neatly growing trees), the growth rings are quite large and density is diminished. Also, because of a different mineral content of the soils, it stays blonder than the 'real' genuine stuff, never acquiring even the slightest hint of reddish tones. Mahogany is known for it's fair/clear grain so it's hard to tell the differences between all of the mahogany out there with respect to the graining. His wood can be had very cheap and shipping from Fiji is not nearly as expensive as South America for some unknown reason.

Fiji is a long way from it but who knows, some may think Fiji is in South America.

Bottom line is this however, if you stain his wood, it'd be hard to tell the difference visually. The same can also be said regarding just about all of the 'mahogany' out there, regardless of it's origin or true species.

Again, this is a real 'stab in the dark' without being able to see it first hand.

[John Coloccia]

I read "South American" as "South African". Woops :) I'm going to side with Damon and say it's probably Honduran mahogany.

I personally have a hard time telling the difference between Honduran and African mahogany. I have pieces of both that are practically indistinguishable.

[Justin Bukoski]

I just built a bookcase out of Philippine Mahogany and it looks identical to the wood in your picture. My lumberyard sells it S4S by the linear foot.

[Will Overton]

It has some characteristics of Brazilian Mahogany ... based on a photo in a book, not personal experience.

[Damon Stathatos]

...that photos always tell a more complete story.

The first photo is 'real' genuine honduran mahogany. It is stacked next to a stack of maple (which should give you a good color reference).

The second photo shows the plantation Fiji 'genuine mahogany.' I had experimented with it after surfacing and sanding it by staining a small section with (what else) mahogany stain on one end and then a small section on the other end, just sealed with paste wax. I left this board out in the direct sunlight outside of my warehouse for three to four months and it never changed color, not even the slightest bit. The board next to it (on the left-hand side) is, I believe (searching my memory) another 'mahogany,' probably Luan (Philippines).

The final picture is a freshly surfaced, sanded, and paste waxed 'real' genuine honduran mahogany slab (third from left, next to cocobolo and ziricote). After surfacing or working it, it goes light(ish) as well, but in time and with UV exposure, will go to the reddish tones apparent in the unfinished stack in the first picture.

Lastly, why is it that the recognizable mahogany color (perpetuated by supposed mahogany 'stain') is not like the true color of mahogany at all?

[Mike Cruz]

Damon, funny that you pose that question. My father is (well, I suppose WAS because he has passed) Puerto Rican. In a discussion about his father's church, he mentioned the very dark, very heavy, mahogany pews. Huh? Dark? Heavy? Mahogany? I was very confused, but that was his impression of mahogany. Mine was through making furniture out of what we buy here as "mahogany", and it is not dark and not heavy.

I don't know if it is a factor of "old" growth, and trees of yesteryear vs the stuff that is grown and used today. Or if it is a matter of different species and varieties that makes the difference.

What he described would be more like what I would describe as a Cocobolo, or even having the charictoristics of oak. Hmmmm, I don't know. One thing is for sure, we certainly had a different impression of mahongany!

[george wilson]

The REAL mahogany color was from genuine Cuban mahogany. It has that dark,reddish brown color,and is very hard and heavy. The other mahoganies don't compare to it. I have some real Cuban mahogany,and some Honduras that is about 100 years old. Even at that age,the Honduras is not real dark,but a medium brownish color.

[Damon Stathatos]

The REAL mahogany color was from genuine Cuban mahogany...
That's something that I had considered as well. As an ex-cigar smoker, there's a reason people clamor over cuban tobacco...it IS that much better. I did the research on Cuban tobacco before and the theory is that it is due to the specific climate but especially the soil. If you think about it, trees and plants are merely a product of the minerals they derive from the soil (combined with climate etc), so, it does make complete sense that cuban mahogany probably does and did set the standard/norm for the perception of the wood. I don't think that too much cuban mahogany exists anymore, not just because of the embargo but that it was fully exploited years ago.

It now makes me wonder what kind of smoke it would make.

[george wilson]

Actually,it is grown in Florida as a decorative tree. Years ago during Andrew(?) a bunch of them blew down and someone was selling wood he had sawn into planks for about $30.00 a BF. Our conservation shop bought some. It was plenty hard,but not as dark as the old Cuban wood.

Back when they first started cutting that mahogany as a cash cargo in the 18th.C.,they took only the stumps. 50 years later,when it began to get more scarce,the loggers came and got the trunks that had been laying on the jungle floor all that time without rotting!!

[Dan Bowman]

Does it have a pinkish color? If so, it might be quaruba. It doesn't have much character but works pretty well.

[Kent E. Matthew]

Three bucks a board foot. Now that's more like it. One local yard here in Pueblo wants 8 bucks a bft.

[Eiji Fuller]

My lumberyard (Frank Paxton lumber) has a product they call "Paxton Mahogany", which was on sale for $3/bdft. They said it was a South American import, but knew nothing else about it. Can anyone tell me more about what this wood actually is?


I think that is Okoume'. It is in the same family as African mahogany but is much softer and lighter in color. It is also very light weight.

If I am correct than $3/bf is not a good deal for this wood.

I wouldnt pay 3 for luan/philipine unless I had to for a job. I dont really enjoy putting my hard work into something that is just going to be dented up so quickly.

[Jim King]

My lumberyard (Frank Paxton lumber) has a product they call "Paxton Mahogany", which was on sale for $3/bdft. They said it was a South American import, but knew nothing else about it. Can anyone tell me more about what this wood actually is?


Looks like Cumala which is normally called Banak in the States. Leaves here in 100 % clear KD boards for $0.70 a board foot. It is mostly used for moldings and can be found in any big box store as it takes stain well and also mobile and moter home trim and kitchens as it is light weight. Dont use it where is will get wet as it will rot quickly. Photos below.

Other Common Names: Sangre, Palo de sangre (Guatemala, Honduras), Sangredrago (Nicaragua), Fruta dorada (Costa Rica), Miguelarillo (Panama), Sangre de toro (Colombia), Camaticaro (Venezuela), Baboen (Surinam), Bicuiba (Brazil), Cumala (Peru).

Distribution: Varying with species from Belize and Guatemala southward to Venezuela the Guianas, the Amazon region of northern Brazil, southern Brazil, and on the Pacific Coast, to Peru and Bolivia; common in swamp and marsh forests.

The Tree: May reach a height of 140 ft with trunk diameters of 5 ft, usually much shorter and only 2 to 3 ft in diameter. Boles are heavily buttressed, cylindrical, and clear for more than two-thirds of total height.

The Wood:
General Characteristics: On drying and exposure, heartwood becomes a pinkish golden brown or deep reddish brown; sapwood cream to tan color, not always sharply demarcated. Luster low to medium; texture rather coarse; grain straight; without distinctive odor or taste.

Weight: Basic specific gravity (ovendry weight/green volume) varies considerably with species from about 0.36 to 0.61, commonly 0.44; air-dry density 27 to 46 pcf.

Mechanical Properties: (First set of data based on the 2-in. standard, the second set on the 2-cm standard, and the third set on the 1-in. standard.)

Moisture content Bending strength Modulus of elasticity Maximum crushing strength
(%) (Psi) (1,000 psi) (Psi)
Green (73) 5,600 1,640 2,390
12% 10,950 2,040 5,140

Green (42) 6,520 1,380 3,180
12% 11,450 1,610 5,950

12% (24) 7,780 1,280 4,740

Janka side hardness for dry material 450 to 640 lb. Forest Products Laboratory toughness average for green and dry material 61 in.-lb (5/8-in. specimen).

Drying and Shrinkage: Generally reported to be difficult to season with a strong tendency to warp and check as well as collapse and honeycomb; thick stock slow to dry. Kiln schedule T3-C2 suggested for 4/4 stock and T3-C1 for 8/4. Shrinkage green to ovendry: radial 4.6%; tangential 8.8%; volumetric 13.7%.

Working Properties: Works easily with both hand and machine tools and produces a good finish, glues well; cuts well into veneers.

Durability: The wood is not resistant to attack by decay fungi and is very susceptible to attack by termites and other insects. Logs require prompt conversion or water storage to prevent damage by pinhole borers. Bacterial attack resulting in the formation of odoriferous compounds is also reported.

Preservation: The timber is reported to be easily impregnated with preservatives using either pressure-vacuum or open-tank systems.

Uses: Veneer and plywood, particleboard and fiberboard, furniture components, boxes and crates, light construction, general carpentry, millwork. Oil is extracted from seeds of Virola and used in soaps and candles.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=838209#poststop

[Frank Drew]

Bottom line is this however, if you stain his wood, it'd be hard to tell the difference visually. The same can also be said regarding just about all of the 'mahogany' out there, regardless of it's origin or true species.



I disagree with this; genuine Mahogany (Swietenia) has a natural luster that many of these other "mahoganies" will never have, no matter how you finish it.

I really wish they'd quit using the name mahogany so promiscuously.

George is correct about how hard and dark Cuban Mahogany (Swietenia mahagoni) generally is, but I've had some Honduran Mahogany (S. Macrophylla) that comes close in color and hardness; I'd pick through piles looking for those boards (rap it with your knuckle and you get almost more of a ring than a knock.)

FWIW, Cuban Mahogany's natural range includes Jamaica, Florida and some other Caribbean locations, and it's sometimes also referred to as Santo Domingo Mahogany, West Indian Mahogany, Spanish Mahogany.

[Andrew Joiner]

I really wish they'd quit using the name mahogany so promiscuously.



I'm with you Frank. In fact the wood business uses names as marketing gimmicks at best. At worst it's dishonest.

Why call wood Mahogany that isn't Mahogany? Could it be that you can get more money for Paxton Mahogany than Paxton Pine or Paxton South American Wood We Got A Deal On?

Why create confusion? If it's Banak or Cumala say so! Then woodworkers can research the properties of the wood and make better products.

I think it all got started when woodworkers accepted the term Philippine Mahogany. After all if everyone down the chain from the sawmill to the consumer wants to call Luan, Mahogany and it makes them happy fine.

I have had many clients over the years who have felt they were" ripped off" by these confusing terms when they know the truth.

[Frank Drew]

Thank you, Andrew, you phrased it better than I could have. With regards to the wood in question, Paxton, it seems, is being especially coy, naming their South-American-Wood-We-Got-A-Deal-On Paxton Mahogany, then feigning ignorance when asked for some details.

:cool:

[Jim King]

I worked many years here in the Amazon discovering new high figure and unusual woods for export.

The vast majority of the woods exported had no name or scientific information available. We would sit around the table in the patio and after a bottle of rum or two we always had a marketing name. That was the easy part. The difficult part of the process is the research to identify the name which requires the flowers , leaves and new shoots for a positive ID.
That sometimes can take years waiting for the tree to flower. A good example is when found a pink wood and named it Pink Flame. Then started the search as to what it actually was.

When I asked the US Tropial Forestry lab in Wisconsin if they had any idea what would be the name of a pink wood in the Amazon. The first reaction was there is no pink wood in the world except Pink Ivory from Africa and I was crazy. I sent them a log slice and that made them a believer.

We then brought down an expert in Tropical wood ID and were lucky enough that the trees were in flower and we collected several complete vouchers from various trees for verification . It was still a mystery as we could not find anything similar in our library or in the major libraries or collections in the world. Our data was sent to many experts and published in journals around the world.

About two years later we recieved a letter from an expert in Germany who found in his archives the exact details and excellent drawing in detail of the flower , leaves etc.. It turned out to be one of the few known tree species that have a male and female tree. The wood had been discovered in 1794 by a German adventurer about 300 miles from us. Until when we found it here there were only half dozen or so samples in the world. Now it has been shipped everywhere.

I always shipped the woods with a sticker with our marketing name and scientific name on each board. To import into the States you must have a scientific name and it must have credibility behind it. All import documents must contain the scientific name of the imported products or the consequences are becoming drastic. If you do a "Google" on the "Lacey act" you can see the requirements and penalties.

Due to the new Free Trade Agreement between Peru and the US the forestry business is under going serious changes and proper nameing of product is one of the issues for all wood produces here.

We still have many species waiting for a positive ID. The Amazon is still a big mystery and virtually unexplored or studied.

Here is the email I recieved when it was finally verified by several experts and they were in agreement.



Jim:

A short note, which I will expand later:

I have dissected the flowers, took pictures, and compared the data to all but two books (the report on the Explorama flora and the other one on the Leticia site) I just requested these books from interlibrary loan.

Pink flame hembra keys out clearJim,

ly to the Rinorea subgroup IIa.1. 'Haughtii' Multivenosa complex. It only contains two species which have so far been known to science only from a handful of collections from southern Colombia and SW Brazil from Acre (Acre is the Brazilian state across the border river).

Hembra is distinct from macho, but I can only judge hembra because ony hembra came with flowers. Hembra is clearly distinct from both species in the multivenosa complex, and unless it matches some new species that might be revealed in the above two books, we are dealing with a new species of a rare genus. Rare because rarely encountared, nevertheless the tree may be locally common. You can tell me how common it is on your sites.

Therefore the name will have to revised from Rinorea aff. multivenosa or R. aff. longistipula to Rinorea sp. nov. #1.

Exciting!

[Frank Drew]

Nice wood, Jim; it looks a little bit like Brazilian Tulipwood (Dalbergia decipularis or D. frutescens, I don't know which is correct), which I've only used in bandings and inlay although I think I've got a board or two of the solid somewhere.

http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/tulipwood.htm

Does that wood of yours hold its color?

[Jim King]

Yes Pink Flame does hold its color well. When I was exporting we had another that we called Orange Agate that was always mistaken for Cocobolo but unlike Cocobolo it was both color fast and non allergenic.

[Chip Lindley]

Looks basically like "Luan" mahogany to me; which is still in the board-stage, and not yet matured into underlayment!
http://i822.photobucket.com/albums/zz142/zzarus/mysterymahogany.jpg

The fact Paxton wishes to link their name with some mystery species from South America is devisive. Paxton's reluctance to readily provide info on the wood, makes it suspect, and evades the issue of whether the stuff is from sustainable sources which comply with everything GREEN, or perhaps poached from some slash-and-burn tract to make way for more short-term BurgerKing pastureland.

I'll stick to poor-man's mahogany as our forefather did--black cherry!

[Damon Stathatos]

Due to the new Free Trade Agreement between Peru and the US the forestry business is under going serious changes...


Jim:

You are very insightful indeed and it's a pleasure to read of your perspectives and experiences.

A bit of a left turn here but since you are certainly abreast of the wood-world there, I have a question that I've been asking for a few years here that nobody can seem to answer:

'What ever happened to Bloodwood (Satine), brosimum rubescens? It was readily available here three to four years ago (and fairly inexpensive) and then, almost from one day to the next, nowhere to be found. Now just a little trickles around from time to time but it's not like the old 'bloodwood' but more like the African version and more of a muddy brown in color.

I had a source for it in Guyana and all he can say is that it's just not around anymore. I knew that the majority of it came from Brazil and was wondering if the government there had put the clamps on it?

Any information would be appreciated as I always considered it a beautiful accent wood, very unique in it's coloring and finish, and wouldn't mind sourcing it for import again.

[Jim King]

Damon:

I have no idea why Bloodwood is hard to find up there. Here it is a very common tree and is being exported to China container load after container load for flooring and furniture. There are several color variations of bloodwood some caused by subspecies and some due to soil conditions but the dark red is generally preferred . Below is a photo of pinkish sandy soil grown Bloodwood on the right and the dark version on the left.

It one of the nicest woods to work with to obtain a brilliant finish. It is possible that the new laws are scaring some people out of the importation of exotics and they are no longer importing. That is a shame as when people stop buying exotic lumber the people here start to slash and burn for subsistance farming . It is very difficult to train them not to eat and if they cannot cut a dozen trees a year to live they have no choice but to slash and burn.

People need to understand that not buying exotic lumber does lead to deforestation. Timber harvesting does not equate to deforestation. Not harvesting a tree here and there does create the need for deforestation to survive.

Cutting the 50 year old Bloodwood tree in the photo below that is ready to die will keep a family alive for a year and do no harm. Not cutting a tree here and there results in the other photo showing slash and burn.

[Andrew Joiner]

I always shipped the woods with a sticker with our marketing name and scientific name on each board.







Jim, I really enjoy reading your posts. What a dream job you have.

I get the feeling you would use the marketing name and scientific name on each board even if you weren't " required" to do so.

What you do is honest marketing.

I'd feel proud to build fine furniture out of Pink Flame wood.

Furniture built from Paxton Mahogany,not so much.

[Jim King]

In answer to one of the above statements about deforestation here is a satalite shot showing the real deforestation due to slash and burn subsistance farming indicated by the light green and pink areas.

In the red grid I harvested about 100,000 board feet of wood from each of the 100 acre parcels shown in the tourqoise colored rectangles. When I had National Geographic people here I walked them thru one of the parcels and they could not find a stump or where it looked as if a tree had been cut. They continued to remark about the beauty of untouched jungle. Finally I explained to them the fact that the parcel had been harvested a year earlier.

As I have said many times it is necessary to cut some trees to preserve the forest.

The average acre here has about 40,000 BF of standing timber and another 15,000 laying on the ground still in excellent condition.

[Damon Stathatos]

Jim:

Not meaning to hijack this thread and perhaps I'll PM you further in an effort not to do so. Thank you for the status of bloodwood there and yes, the photos of the deep red wood is what I was used to seeing here but not much anymore. I agree that it has a tremendous depth in its finish and the color is hard to duplicate. It was also a kick to work with, the dust would change your whole shop 'blood' 'red'.

Your points are well taken regarding the perception of exotic woods and deforestation. Unfortunately however, there are too many examples already 'in the books' which are the basis for the conscientious objections and which feed the more casual opinions as to causes and effects. There are many in the industry who attempt to impart the distinctions between exploitation vs good forestry (or good local economics) but it's difficult to do so, again, to the casual opinion maker.

My primary stock is cocobolo harvested by government permit from Nicaragua hurricane stock. Only trees that are at or under 45 degrees are allowed to be cut, the theory being that if they are allowed to fall on their own (a certain eventuality), it would cause more harm than good to the surrounding trees and area. It is often difficult to sell prospects on this with deeply engrained and preconceived notions and images of a deforested Amazon however and even by making the points you have made.

It's unfortunate that people with the best of intentions often do not consider the true consequences of their decisions/perceptions...it's also what keeps politicians employed.

[george wilson]

I think just plain ignorance can be to blame for some of the wood naming fiascos. There is an arrogant wood dealer in Norfolk who tried to pass off some wood several years ago to me,stating that it was Brazilian Rosewood. I've been using it since about 1954,and B.R.,it certainly WASN't.

More recently,I ordered boxwood from 3 or 4 dealers,and got different species,all named Castello. They weren't the same. I'm sure one of the woods was Maracaibo. We used the Maracaibo to make a bunch of folding rules as it was the ONLY box that would stay straight,and was used historically for rules.

[Jim King]

Andrew:

I just ran across a photo of the way we used to label the woods wether turning blanks or lumber. This should be a standard in the industry. Virtually every product you buy has a label describing the product. Why not woods ?

COMMON NAME
SCIENTIFIC NAME
NAME OF PRODUCER
COUNTRY OF ORIGEN