Machining very rough lumber?

[jeth chiapas]

Hello all, this is my first post on the forum, have been reading and learning for a while but having still not come across a solution for a little problem I have here i have decided to see what you have to suggest.. Please don't take this for a joke, reality can be crazy sometimes..

The problem is this... I am located in southern Mexico, where the style of woodworking is a little different to that generally practised by folks on this board, as are the raw materials available. Raw is the operative word here.
if you check the attached photo you will see what I am talking about.
I have this little pile of wood sitting here, unfortunately my workshop is woefully under-equipped to be able to turn any of it into furniture/sawdust (preferably ordered by quantity)...
The biggest problem down here is economy, pesos are hard to earn and tools cost a fair bit more than north of the border (or the Uk, where I am from)..

At present I have a small craftsman table saw, a router, belt sander and other hand operated power tools. Obviously to get workable stock from this stuff I am going to need more machinery, but due to the economic situation it's going to be a case of one thing at a time, poco a poco (little by little).. I am trying to work out what the priorites should be to enable me to start making use of the fantastic but very raw materials available here.
Ideally i would want a jointer to get a decent working edge on some of these pieces, a bandsaw to rough-cut and a planer to get dimensioned pieces, but as all that is going to take some serious time to earn, what would you folks suggest as a viable method to work this stuff with minimal equipment?
I have various ideas but due to generally being a procrastinator and lacking experience I'm just not sure.. I could start with a jointer, a 6" being the most likely option, deal with a face with the router and a jig or handplane, then get one square edge using the jointer.. I could go for the bandsaw first and hope to get reasonably true pieces to edge joint with router or table saw, or i could just give up on the idea and keep working with more or less dimensioned pine from a local woodyard that costs about 3 times what this kind of raw timber costs, though I'm frustrated with those limits as there are some fantastic woods to be had here (most of what you see there is primavera, cedar and huanacastle).

Maybe by now you all think I'm mad for wanting to try and work this stuff without having a full shop of nice big machines, but you should see the local carpenters if you want to see mad, the normal here is freehand cutting on handmade table saws with a 3-5hp motor and a 14-20" circular blade, if the piece is thicker than the blade will cut it's flip it over and pass again from the other side, but then, you should see the stuff they build, rough and ready is in...
Any suggestions other than forget it?

[Darius Ferlas]

A lot of what I see in the photo looks like very much doable on a jointer. Whatever turns out to be too much for the jointer could indeed be taken care of on a band saw. To make sure you really get the edges true use a sled along the lines of this example (http://woodgears.ca/shop-tricks/bandsaw_sled.html).

[jeth chiapas]

Thanks Darius for a quick reply, I'm thinking that with just the jointer for starters I am going to need one flat face to start, but with a bit of sweat ( well, a lot of sweat, 40+ and super humid down here in the tropics) that can be done with a handplane I guess, or a router set up. A 6" jointer is going to cost me about 500usd, getting on for a months wages, a bandsaw about double that. If i was to get it together for the bandsaw first am i going to have any luck using a sled to get two sides reasonably square?

[Matt Logana]

You could definately rip and resaw it all on a BandSaw to achieve workable stock, without a planer or jointer.

The trick is to demension it with a Lo-TPI blade, then finish it with a Hi-TPI blade. With a Hi-TPI blade I achieve a finish quality cut...

But for this, you want a High Powered machine, probably 18 Inch or Higher... Since I know that I strain my 14" resawing 2x4, with a High TPI blade.

[jeth chiapas]

Thanks Matt, Sounds promising, though the bandsaw i quoted in my post was a 14", 1.5hp model, step up to an 18", 2hp is going to be another 400us or so. As for blades, as they say, in Mexico everything is possible, but you have to do it with the basics that are available on the market and it's unlikely there are many options, the only blades listed are direct replacements for the 4TPI blades that come fitted. I'm not to worried about resawing to a finish quality cut, i'll be happy enough with square and dimensioned material.

[Darius Ferlas]

Jeth, some other ideas after I read Matt's valid comments. A band saw to resaw the wider surface would have to be indeed one with a little more capacity and power than cheaper 14" ones.

You do have a router though, so here are some other suggestions:

1. the faces could be flattened using either a ahand plane, or a router that you have. For the router you'd need to build a sort of a sled, similar to one shown here (http://www.dans-hobbies.com/2008/06/28/simple-router-sled/).

2. the edges could be then cut on a bs, and for that pretty much any bandsaw would do.

Answering your question about the squaring on a band saw, yes, you can get the stock very much square.

[jeth chiapas]

that was the kind of router jig I had in mind to flatten the faces of wider pieces, I also have a handheld electric plane but it's not so easy to get good flat surfaces with that, easier in fact with a handplane. When talking about cutting wider faces on the bandsaw, what kind of capacity are we talking about , the 14" model I had in mind has a max capacity of nearly 10" (i guess the 14" references the blade wheels not the max cut), is it not likeley to effectively cut that wide a piece? The 18" model at 2Hp will cut up to 12", but again, will it really?
Too give a better idea of the size of what I have here, most of the pieces are at least 5"-6" in the smallest dimension, a good part of them being about the same in width, though i do have some big slabs up to 15" wide, but had kind of accepted those would have to be ripped down to smaller sizes, ideally I'd like to be able to work this stuff down into at least 6" wide boards.

[Matt Logana]

that was the kind of router jig I had in mind to flatten the faces of wider pieces, I also have a handheld electric plane but it's not so easy to get good flat surfaces with that, easier in fact with a handplane. When talking about cutting wider faces on the bandsaw, what kind of capacity are we talking about , the 14" model I had in mind has a max capacity of nearly 10" (i guess the 14" references the blade wheels not the max cut), is it not likeley to effectively cut that wide a piece? The 18" model at 2Hp will cut up to 12", but again, will it really?
Too give a better idea of the size of what I have here, most of the pieces are at least 5"-6" in the smallest dimension, a good part of them being about the same in width, though i do have some big slabs up to 15" wide, but had kind of accepted those would have to be ripped down to smaller sizes, ideally I'd like to be able to work this stuff down into at least 6" wide boards.


If you want to resaw 15" you are going to need a big ol' saw... up in the 20" range or so...

Alternatively, you could just replace the motor on the saw, to a 2HP+ which might set you back a few hundred... the trick is getting the pulley off the old saw. (Assuming this is a belt driven saw... if its DD, then I have no idea...)

[jeth chiapas]

As I said, I accept I am not going to be cutting myself 15" wide boards, will be happy to rip those wider slabs down and get say 6-8" out of them, so would really like to know if that is going to be doable on a 14" 1.5 Hp saw, or if i should hold out for an 18" 2Hp model? Are those saws really going to be capable of cuts close to their maximum height capacity?

[Darius Ferlas]

The highest resawing I did on my 14" 1HP band saw was 5.5" walnut. The feed rate was pretty slow but the results were good.
I used a 1/2" 3TPI blade.

[jeth chiapas]

Thanks again to all posters, really useful info all round, and fast :) That sounds promising Darius, walnut is hard stuff and most of the local woods are semi hard at most, I may well get away with 6" boards in that case, which would suit me fine if I go on to get my hands on a 6" jointer. Would be nice to think that those saws would actually cut to their full capacity but it'll be nice enough just to get workable material from the crudely cut raw material available here.
Just to see this afternoon I had a play around trying to push a 5" square chunk over my "3Hp" craftsman saw, I did actually manage a reasonable flat face by screwing a staright rail to the opposite side to push along the fence, and their was some lovely figure in there, but I'm pretty sure my saw will die young if i try it too often :)

[Alan Schwabacher]

I've resawn 11" of maple and ash using a 14" bandsaw. But it went pretty slowly, and I'm not sure how long the saw would last if I did it regularly.

I would definitely check out the hand tool options. Handplanes work well, and if you make your own Krenov style planes they can be quite inexpensive. A bowsaw will cut curves, but resawing is not something most would attempt by hand. Riving is quick, and with straight grained stock can work well. It works better with green wood.

[Matt Logana]

I am confused by your latest comment: "Would be nice to think that those saws would actually cut to their full capacity...". Are you refering to on the Z-Axis or the X-Axis?

The reason I ask, is because we are refering to the Z-Axis mostly, yet you seem to be asking about the Y. For example, a 14" Bandsaw has approximately a 12.5 throat capacity, the distance between the blade and the spine. But, those saws only have a 6" Resaw capacity, unless a riser block is added, thus increasing that figure to 12". Make no mistake, you can cut the full 12.5 inches, maybe a tad more if you play on the wild-side[Not recommended.. I nearly lost a couple fingers(It jumped, leaving my hand within a couple centimetres of the blade) when the board bound, resulting in me pushing harder than I should have. Cause: Trying to feed a 12.75 board through the throat.] But, most saws cannot cut the entire 12" Resaw Cap, Unless their motors are upgraded. Even more so on hardwoods.

BTW, I recommend getting a Delta-style saw, if you plan to add a riser. This is due to the fact that most european saws will not accept them due to their C-Neck design.

[jeth chiapas]

Well, of the two models I have mentioned, the 14" has a quoted max. vertical work capacity as sold of 9 3/4" and the 18" model 11 1/4", so yes, I was reffering to the z axis, and wondering if those saws would really resaw close to that full capacity.
As for playing on the wildside, all comes with the territory down here, did i mention a local carpenters home made moulding bench with a 5hp motor and a bodged axle with cut down machete blades clamped onto it? :)
Seriously though, I have found myself having to bend the rules at times, but I try to be fairly sensible, and if a 14" 1.5HP saw is going to cut me 6" boards then that will be a good enough starting point and the extra 500us i'll save over an 18" model will go a long way here, like another 850bf of wood to be going on with!

[Matt Logana]

Well, of the two models I have mentioned, the 14" has a quoted max. vertical work capacity as sold of 9 3/4" and the 18" model 11 1/4", so yes, I was reffering to the z axis, and wondering if those saws would really resaw close to that full capacity.
As for playing on the wildside, all comes with the territory down here, did i mention a local carpenters home made moulding bench with a 5hp motor and a bodged axle with cut down machete blades clamped onto it? :)
Seriously though, I have found myself having to bend the rules at times, but I try to be fairly sensible, and if a 14" 1.5HP saw is going to cut me 6" boards then that will be a good enough starting point and the extra 500us i'll save over an 18" model will go a long way here, like another 850bf of wood to be going on with!

Yikes... that sounds a tad dangerous... remind me never to become a Mexican Carpenter...

[jeth chiapas]

Next time I pay him a visit i'll try and get some pics, always interesting to see the other side of things, last time I was there I was more than a little frightened to see him rough cutting a curved piece about 8" total length, 1 1/2" thick, freehand on a 14" circular saw blade... and you definitely would not approve of his 3 phase wiring (hanging out of the wall at head height) :o

[Myk Rian]

A router on a sled can be used to joint and plane wood.
Just make a base to hold the router, and add adjustable ends to set the height.
Here's a very simple example.
http://www.leestyron.com/sled.php

[Phillip Ngan]

Thinking out of the box.

1. Assuming local woodshop services are inexpensive
Get one of the local shops to resaw the wood for you close to the thickness you want. E.g. 7/8" I'm assuming that they would charge local rates for their services. Then make a router sled to joint and bring to final dimensions.

2. Turn the clock back
Do it with hand tools. Sure it will be very tough work especially working with hard woods. You'll need rip and cross cut hand saws. And a #7 or #8 jointer plane for truing and thicknessing. Could acquire hand tools in your area? You would have the satisfaction of knowing it was all "hand made".

3. Assuming your wood is valuable
Perhaps you are wood rich and tool poor. You could barter with someone north of the border wood for tools. Looks like the kind of wood you have is not easily sourced in more northern climes.

[jeth chiapas]

Thanks Phillip,

Unfortunately the first option is out of the question as I don't have a vehicle to transport material, and as far as i know the only local woodshop with half decent machinery don't offer a machining service other than for wood bought from them (pine only), also the general standard of work here means that no matter what you tell them it will always be done rather more or less.

I have a #7 jointer plane, and electric hand plane (useful to get the rough surface planed off then flatten up with the handplane), and am thinking that they will be put to use at least till I can get a jointer/planer, but resawing by hand i feel i will never achieve the results i want and would sweat myself to death down here, so am now thinking the bandsaw is the priority.

As for the third option, I am in the very southern tip of mexico, almost on the guatemalan border and just transporting wood within the local area is a risky business without permits, sadly just another excuse for the authorities to get some bribes out of you, transporting a worthwhile quantity to the north for sale or exchange is only for the rich and politically connected :( Some beautiful wood here, and average about 60cents US per BF, but moving it is just not a goer.

Thanks again to all posters, lots of useful suggestions here..

[Matt Logana]

I would get a permit. Or pay someone to transport you and the wood.

A friend of mine said that when their friend went to Mexico, her husband(my friends; who is from Guatemala) told them to keep a few hundred in the glove compartment... sure enough they got pulled over for driving on the wrong side of the road. a hundred later, and the cop tore up the ticket... lol.. I guess it goes to show you how things are down there. Cops make such low wages that they have to make a living on bribes...

[jeth chiapas]

Hope that wasn't a hundred dollars! I managed to save my ex wifes car from being impounded (expired license and minor traffic accident) with100 pesos, about 8usd at the time.. Sadly i think that without the necessary connections the bribes invloved in getting the permits would make it a non earner moving wood unless you were to set up a big operation, but if anyone wants to drive me down a few machines and take the risk on the way back up with a truck full of wood of course I would be more than happy to oblige, and i'll throw in a free short break in the tropics with guided tours of the local coffee plantations, rainforest and for the adreniline junkies some extreme carpentry with the local bad boys and their homemade machines :)

[Homer Faucett]

I'm going to offer an alternative suggestion to what you have been given so far. The rough lumber you have does not look terrible. I've seen worse around here, although I'm sure yours is heavier and is less forgiving on blades. When I started out, I had a 12" lunchbox planer, and built a planer sled that allowed me to use my planer to face joint the lumber. Flip it over once the face is true, and plane as you normally would.

Then, you can use a table saw with a decent rip blade and a straight line jig to get one edge true. Flip the board and rip with the straight edge against the fence, and you have s4s lumber.

I think a planer is the essential tool for you right now. You can get by without a jointer. You can get by without a bandsaw, but a table saw and planer will allow you to turn that pile into square stock with a decent finish with the least amount of work and cost, IMHO.

Do a google search or a search here for "planer sled" and "straight line rip jig". I think you'll have what you need, then.

[Matt Logana]

If you dont mind a small debate on that last comment:

Unless he has a good tablesaw, odds are those slabs wont get far on one.
- A 10in table saw, assuming he has one, rather than a 7.25in one, has a maximum of 3 inches above the table.
-Those blocks appear to be about 6x6, leaving him hard pressed to get through the board. Most smaller saws will most likely stall out before cutting through.
-Even then, a cheaper saw might not cut accurate, since they often have cheap fences as well as the possibility of blade deflection.

Whereas a bandsaw has a maximum of 12" Resaw, for a 14" Model. A Delta 14" costs about $400. Whereas a table saw with a 10" blade, costs maybe $600+ and that has a 3" resaw capacity.

Its in my oppinion that you get more bang for you buck with a Bandsaw...

[jeth chiapas]

Homer/Matt, just read through your posts and Matts right, my little craftsman saw itself weighs less than most of those slabs, and suffers from all the disadvantages Matt suggests. if you read back through the thread you'll see I mentioned that I did play around and try squaring off the edges on a roughly 5x5" chunk, surprisingly the saw didn't cut out as it has done before on slimmer pieces, but the fence is not solid enough to ensure accurate cuts and it's just never going to be easy to get a decent flat face cutting through from one side then the other. As I have said the lumber is at least 5" on it's shorter face up to 7" or more. For this reason I had the bandsaw in mind to resaw into boards that my table saw will give me at least reasonable results on, though due to the flimsy fence I'm never going to achieve jointing quality faces on that saw.

Quoting US prices is one thing but tools are way more expensive in Mexico, where the market is very limited. the cheapest reasonable looking 14" saw I have seen is a little over $1000, it's a mexican brand and hard to comment on quality with very little consumer information available this side of the border and most other carpenters preffering their bodged together circular saw benches and a complete disregard for their safety. The same brands 10" cabinet saw weighs in at about $1500 and is probably not near the quality of a $600 saw from a US brand.
The economic situation really makes life difficult here, for that reason I really want to work out the best plan as it will be sometime between purchase of one machine and the next.

As for the planer first with a sled, I had thought about it, but due to the table saw issue it still won't get me two squared edges, just the faces cleaned up, and most of those slabs are thick enough that they will not fit into your average 6" max benchtop planer (already around $800 down here for a dewalt or similar and anything bigger is way out of reach), let alone on top of a sled.

[Matt Logana]

Homer/Matt, just read through your posts and Matts right, my little craftsman saw itself weighs less than most of those slabs, and suffers from all the disadvantages Matt suggests. if you read back through the thread you'll see I mentioned that I did play around and try squaring off the edges on a roughly 5x5" chunk, surprisingly the saw didn't cut out as it has done before on slimmer pieces, but the fence is not solid enough to ensure accurate cuts and it's just never going to be easy to get a decent flat face cutting through from one side then the other. As I have said the lumber is at least 5" on it's shorter face up to 7" or more. For this reason I had the bandsaw in mind to resaw into boards that my table saw will give me at least reasonable results on, though due to the flimsy fence I'm never going to achieve jointing quality faces on that saw.

Quoting US prices is one thing but tools are way more expensive in Mexico, where the market is very limited. the cheapest reasonable looking 14" saw I have seen is a little over $1000, it's a mexican brand and hard to comment on quality with very little consumer information available this side of the border and most other carpenters preffering their bodged together circular saw benches and a complete disregard for their safety. The same brands 10" cabinet saw weighs in at about $1500 and is probably not near the quality of a $600 saw from a US brand.
The economic situation really makes life difficult here, for that reason I really want to work out the best plan as it will be sometime between purchase of one machine and the next.

As for the planer first with a sled, I had thought about it, but due to the table saw issue it still won't get me two squared edges, just the faces cleaned up, and most of those slabs are thick enough that they will not fit into your average 6" max benchtop planer (already around $800 down here for a dewalt or similar and anything bigger is way out of reach), let alone on top of a sled.


I know someone with a craftsman like that... its as queer as a $3 bill... cuts crooked, bounces around, and can be heard by the entire neighborhood...


If I were you, Id go to the local port, maybe you can buy something cheaper than retail(as said, bribes go a long way in that country...)

[george wilson]

I am sorry to hear how difficult things are for you in Mexico. Can't even safely transport your wood!! Terrible.

Years ago I had a friend from (phonetic spelling) Kee et er oh, in the Southern part of Mexico. His father ran a furniture making shop there. This was 40 years and more ago. His last name was Rivera.

I'm aware that the name would start with a "Q",but didn't want to attempt it!! I don't know if the shop is still there or not,or if it is close to you.

I made guitars,and every time I took out a new common tool,Arturo got all excited. He said in Mexico,you have to first make a knife. Then,with the knife you make the guitar! I hope at least they also had a plane!

I made him a guitar. He had a great singing voice,and entertained Ava Gardner and her party one time. I have no idea where he now is. I know he got married to an American girl.

[Matt Logana]

Quetiero? My spanish is a tad rusty..

[jeth chiapas]

Queretaro I guess, not so far south, i'm as far south as you can get, so I don't think i know Georges old friend, though 40 years on things haven't changed much...

In the local port I'm unlikely to get my hands on much more than mango or bananas (outgoing) and possibly the odd tonne of cocaine (passing through, most liley heading your way).. As I said, things haven't changed much round this way in 40 years on the carpentry front and there just simply isn't a market in those kind of tools, haven't seen any larger bandsaws on sale down here, but suppliers will bring in anything you are willing to pay a deposit on from available brands. There is a dealer who can get delta, but prices are likely to be double or more what you guys pay, and bear in mind I'm lucky if i make $500 a month.

[george wilson]

I haven't used Mango,but from pictures I think it is a very pretty wood.

[Rick Markham]

Jeth, just out of curiosity... If you did spend the money on that expensive bandsaw, how likely is it to honestly show up at your door? (I'm not trying to be a killjoy, I am just curious)

For me, I would think the best option would be a whole bunch of hand tools and a lot of perspiration. I would think your best bet is the band saw, however before I got a jointer, I would invest in a table saw that's actually worth a dang.

Man, I really feel for you! That's hard... I wish you all the luck in the world. Ever thought of moving? :D

[jeth chiapas]

Hi rick, thanks for the comments.
Though internal post is often "dissapeared" large items would be sent direct by carrier from the manafacturer so yes, I think it would show up.
A decent table saw here is pricey as virtually nobody has ever even seen one but it is still at the top of the longer term wants list, till then i will just keep struggling to get straight cuts and contributing to the local noise pollution.

As for moving, unfortunately I'm here because I have a daughter here, and am currently going through a nasty legal battle to secure better access to her, thats where the corruption really starts to hurt, especially being on the "away" team :(

I don't think I mentioned that I am actually trying to earn a living out of my workshop.