Recommendation Wanted: Firmer Chisels

[Mark Wyatt]

I'm looking for a top notch set of everyday bench firmer chisels. Something more substantial than dovetail chisels. Something which can take a good beating and hold an edge. An improvement in quality over my much used (and liked) Marple Blue Chips.

I prefer english measures, and, notwithstanding the debates of an earlier thread, would prefer them to be fairly close to actual listed width. I prefer wood handles. I'm intriqued by the wood infused with resin/epoxy noted in the Czeck chisel thread.

I've looked into the Blue Spruce chisels and they may be just the ticket. But, I'm wondering if there are other quality makers I should be aware of. Budget is roughly up to $125 a chisel, but that is somewhat flexible. I prefer socket type to tang type chisels. I've not enjoyed the Japanese chisels I've owned.

I'm absolutely not opposed to searching out used/vintage tools if there are good options available. Somehow, in the Midwest, every craftsman had 7 drawknifes, 4 axes, and 13 Disston saws in various states of disrepair but no chisels.

Thanks for your input.

[David Weaver]

There's not going to be any one answer, but if you're doing woodworking tasks that are generally in the realm of furniture and cabinets, you'll probably be better off buying a good set of bevel edge chisels than firmers.

They can take all of the beating you're likely to give them, and anything where you really need to abuse a chisel (like mortising) can be saved for a mortise chisel.

Any of the mainline japanese chisels will be good, but you have to know you like that style. haven't used the BS, but they're probably fine, too (do they make a heavy profile?).

The LN chisels are very tough as a set of bench chisels.

Generally, I think the biggest benefit of the tougher steel chisels (special steel japanese and the super-hard western style chisels) are of much more benefit if you do most of your work in woods harder than hard maple. Otherwise, the sharpening time/ease consideration is something that could go either way based on your preferences.

If you've liked the japanese chisels you have, what are they? If they are the iyoroi or matsumura type chisels, maybe a step up to something like blue steel miyanaga chisels or (what's wilbur's favorite brand?) would be what you're looking for. Lots of options in HSS japanese chisels now if you have the means to sharpen them.

[Derek Cohen]

I agree with everything David wrote.

I turn to Japanese Iyoroi bench chisels when I need to chop into the harder woods. They are tough and hold an edge better than anything else I have tried.

Otherwise I would look at the Blue Spruce bench chisels (not the dovetail or parers).

One that I have used - and gad they are tough! - are the HSS Harold & Saxon range (from Australia). But there is about a 2 year wait on these ..

http://www.haroldandsaxon.com/product_bench.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Sandy Stanford]

I'm looking for a top notch set of everyday bench firmer chisels. Something more substantial than dovetail chisels. Something which can take a good beating and hold an edge. An improvement in quality over my much used (and liked) Marple Blue Chips.

I prefer english measures, and, notwithstanding the debates of an earlier thread, would prefer them to be fairly close to actual listed width. I prefer wood handles. I'm intriqued by the wood infused with resin/epoxy noted in the Czeck chisel thread.

I've looked into the Blue Spruce chisels and they may be just the ticket. But, I'm wondering if there are other quality makers I should be aware of. Budget is roughly up to $125 a chisel, but that is somewhat flexible. I prefer socket type to tang type chisels. I've not enjoyed the Japanese chisels I've owned.

I'm absolutely not opposed to searching out used/vintage tools if there are good options available. Somehow, in the Midwest, every craftsman had 7 drawknifes, 4 axes, and 13 Disston saws in various states of disrepair but no chisels.

Thanks for your input.

$125 per chisel? I'd buy another set of the Blue Chips and spend the difference on wood. But I guess if your budget is $125 per chisel you probably already have a drop dead gorgeous inventory of furnituremaking stock at your disposal - flitches, lumber in the boule, sequenced matched veneers, etc.

Couldn't care less about the chisels, but would love to see the wood. Count me as envious.

[Mike Zilis]

I would think that the Lie-Nielsen bench chisels would stand up to a good workout. The Hornbeam handles are tested with a standard metal framing hammer. For even more edge durability, get a set in the O1 steel. I've got the A2 set and even these hold an excellent edge after an hour of pounding out notches in 4x4 timbers.

I've also got the mid-priced Hirsch firmer chisel set sold by Lee Valley. These are not particularly elegant and aren't considered premium by any means but they are very sturdy.

Mike

[Prashun Patel]

http://www.finewoodworking.com/fwnpdf/011200038.pdf

Prior to this article, I've heard very good things about both the Lie Nielsens and the matsumura's.

FWIW, I believe a Lie Nielsen anything can be viewed as borrowing with deposit. If you decide you don't use/like it whatever it is you buy, you can sell it here or on auction for very close to what you pay new.

[David Weaver]

http://www.finewoodworking.com/fwnpdf/011200038.pdf

Prior to this article, I've heard very good things about both the Lie Nielsens and the matsumura's.

FWIW, I believe a Lie Nielsen anything can be viewed as borrowing with deposit. If you decide you don't use/like it whatever it is you buy, you can sell it here or on auction for very close to what you pay new.

Matsumura is interchangeable with pretty much any decent utilitarian $60 japanese chisel. No reason to get fixated on brand.

LNs do seem to resell better for someone who changes their mind about them.

[David Keller NC]

Mark - You don't say why you're particularly looking for firmer chisels (other than the "takes a beating" description). If you're just looking for toughness, then the L-Ns or on the way-over-the-top tough, the Blue Spruce bench chisels may be your best bet.

But those aren't firmers.

If what you're looking for is weight, then your best bet probably is a set of antique firmer chisels. These are usually socket designs in the 11" - 14" long range - i.e. real bruisers that can be used for timber framing, chopping out big mortises, etc...

If that's the case, I'd suggest contacting some of the more reputable antique tool dealers. The two that I know of that generally have a set or two around (though not necessarily advertised) is Lee Richmond of The Best Things and Patrick Leach of Supertool fame. I'd give them a call - expect to pay somewhere between a low of $250 and a high of about $500 for a set of 9-12 firmers (price depends heavily on completeness of set, condition of handles, condition of steel, and who made them).

[Sandy Stanford]

I'm looking for a top notch set of everyday bench firmer chisels. Something more substantial than dovetail chisels. Something which can take a good beating and hold an edge. An improvement in quality over my much used (and liked) Marple Blue Chips.

I prefer english measures, and, notwithstanding the debates of an earlier thread, would prefer them to be fairly close to actual listed width. I prefer wood handles. I'm intriqued by the wood infused with resin/epoxy noted in the Czeck chisel thread.

I've looked into the Blue Spruce chisels and they may be just the ticket. But, I'm wondering if there are other quality makers I should be aware of. Budget is roughly up to $125 a chisel, but that is somewhat flexible. I prefer socket type to tang type chisels. I've not enjoyed the Japanese chisels I've owned.

I'm absolutely not opposed to searching out used/vintage tools if there are good options available. Somehow, in the Midwest, every craftsman had 7 drawknifes, 4 axes, and 13 Disston saws in various states of disrepair but no chisels.

Thanks for your input.

Sorby and Henry Taylor are the only firms still manufacturing firmer chisels, at least firms of which I am aware. They are tanged, however.

[Sandy Stanford]

From time to time. Between west penn lumber and hearne, and two very local suppliers for domestics, I've never had any trouble finding wood for furniture. I doubt you have a lot that couldn't be bought at either. Seems like when I've bought, the bill has always been higher than any set of chisels i have, which makes quibbling about the price of chisels look pretty stupid.

It's only the wood for planes that's harder to come by and that I have to stash, and even at that I don't much appreciate having to store it. If I could buy it spur of the moment, I would.

Those guys are rather high priced. Which pretty much makes my point.

I still want to see what the high-roller crowd builds with $150 chisels and lumber from the highest of high retail outfits. Sorry for my curiosity regarding money-is-no-object woodworking and tool buying. I freely admit to the envy.

[David Weaver]

They might be expensive, but so is extra real estate if you're going to store your wood. For someone where both time and money would be short, it's not such a great hobby, is it?

If the average hobbyist builds more than two pieces of furniture per year (not counting cabinets or such things), and some other trinkets, I would be surprised. I mean good honest well thought-out furniture with proper joints, not some thing thrown together with pocket screws or festools latest whiz bang joint machine.

If you're building two pieces of furniture per year, spending to get the wood from expensive places is no big deal. If it were a means to pay the bills, then it's a bigger deal, or were I or most of the other hobbyists here retired with more time than money rather than the converse, then also maybe it's a bigger deal.

I'd imagine the converse is true more often than not.

I'd assume most of the people who ask a question and say they have $125 a chisel budget can go to a supplier and get wood for their next project whenever they need it, whether it's $250 or $2500.

[Harlan Barnhart]

I am considering a set of the HHS japanese chisels from Stu at tools from japan dot com. He is a very knowledgeable guy and always ready to answer any questions. He can also do special orders since he knows the maker personally. For example he can leave off the bevels if you want more of a firmer chisel over a bench chisel.

I would go over to the other forum that has initials of WN and pick his brain. He is usually available. My only reservation so far is sharpening HHS. He also has a line of "semi-HHS" which might prove interesting.

Peace,
Harlan

[David Weaver]

Any stone with aluminum oxide with sharpen HSS, and green stuff or fine diamond loose grit will put a final edge on them that subjectively feels as sharp as anything else and leaves no lines or dullness on endgrain. The fact that you can dry grind them unlike nearly anything else japanese is worth noting, too.

They're just a bad idea for glasstones (surprisingly) and especially way off limits for oil stones, and a bad idea for sandpaper due to how slow it will cut them.

My suggestion is to avoid getting chisels without bevels for the sake of having a stronger chisel. You should never be in a position where you're challenging the strength of a good solid bench chisel, and you'll maybe be in situations where you wish the bevel was there if you don't have it.

[Mark Wyatt]

Mark - You don't say why you're particularly looking for firmer chisels (other than the "takes a beating" description). If you're just looking for toughness, then the L-Ns or on the way-over-the-top tough, the Blue Spruce bench chisels may be your best bet.



Weight, size, toughness, and feel in the hand. They are meant to bridge the gap between a set like the L-N and heavy duty mortise chisels. A few times lately I've found myself wanting a substantial chisel in the 1/2" to 1 1/2" range.

[Gary Herrmann]

Echoing the comment on vintage firmers. Bevel edge or not, they're out there. I've got a nearly full set of Greenlee firmers. The 4 chisels from 1" to 2" are quite substantial. 1/2" to 1" less so, but that depends on your definition and usage.

You can probably find a NOS set of 12 firmers for a whole lot less than 125 each without looking too hard.

[Frank Drew]

Any of the mainline japanese chisels will be good...

If you've liked the japanese chisels you have, what are they?

I prefer Japanese chisels but I think Mark has already said that he doesn't.


I've not enjoyed the Japanese chisels I've owned.

[David Weaver]

bah..thanks for pointing that out. I completely misread it. First skim through I missed the "not".

I'm not aware of any "great" firmer chisels that are new. might as well buy old ones, they're plentiful in everything in except matching sets.

[David Kirtley]

Woodworker.com still stocks the Crown firmers. I have an old set that I picked up a long time ago that were labeled with Woodworker Supply logo. They have held up ok and are not that expensive.

http://woodworker.com/set-of-4-chisels-mssu-890-296.asp

[Mike Henderson]

The Lie-Nielsens are good, as are the Blue Spruce. My choice would be the Lie-Nielsens because they're as good as the Blue Spruce and a bit lower in price.

Both are English measurement and exactly on size.

Mike

P.S. If you buy the Lie Nielsens and don't like them, you can sell them on eBay for essentially full price.

[Sandy Stanford]

I'm looking for a top notch set of everyday bench firmer chisels. Something more substantial than dovetail chisels. Something which can take a good beating and hold an edge. An improvement in quality over my much used (and liked) Marple Blue Chips.

I prefer english measures, and, notwithstanding the debates of an earlier thread, would prefer them to be fairly close to actual listed width. I prefer wood handles. I'm intriqued by the wood infused with resin/epoxy noted in the Czeck chisel thread.

I've looked into the Blue Spruce chisels and they may be just the ticket. But, I'm wondering if there are other quality makers I should be aware of. Budget is roughly up to $125 a chisel, but that is somewhat flexible. I prefer socket type to tang type chisels. I've not enjoyed the Japanese chisels I've owned.

I'm absolutely not opposed to searching out used/vintage tools if there are good options available. Somehow, in the Midwest, every craftsman had 7 drawknifes, 4 axes, and 13 Disston saws in various states of disrepair but no chisels.

Thanks for your input.

Are you looking for bevel edged firmers or non-bevel edged?

[Harlan Barnhart]

Any stone with aluminum oxide with sharpen HSS, and green stuff or fine diamond loose grit will put a final edge on them that subjectively feels as sharp as anything else and leaves no lines or dullness on endgrain. The fact that you can dry grind them unlike nearly anything else japanese is worth noting, too.

They're just a bad idea for glasstones (surprisingly) and especially way off limits for oil stones, and a bad idea for sandpaper due to how slow it will cut them.

Hmm.. Interesting. Which types of stones have aluminum oxide? By "glasstones" do you mean the synthetic waterstones like shapton or naniwa?

[David Weaver]

glasstones are the shapton glasstones. With a little experimenting in the last couple of months, I seem to see a difference between a 16k glasstone and a 15k pro stone on tough steels - in favor of the pro stones.

Soft stones like kings are aluminum oxide from what I understand (that's not universally true, some soft coarse stones are silicon carbide). Norton waterstones are probably also aluminum oxide. I have not tried nortons, but used kings for a long time and don't remember them not cutting anything.

I don't know if naniwas do well with HSS or not. I have one, but haven't had occasion to use it on HSS.

[James Owen]

Weight, size, toughness, and feel in the hand. They are meant to bridge the gap between a set like the L-N and heavy duty mortise chisels. A few times lately I've found myself wanting a substantial chisel in the 1/2" to 1 1/2" range.

Take a look at the Henry Taylor firmer chisels.... They are sold at Woodcraft as "timber framing" chisels, but are true socket firmers. Nice quality steel and edge-holding, 10" +/- blade length, nice balance, hooped ash handles, etc.

I bought mine to use primarily for paring because they were the only decent-quality, long-blade, (new), Imperial chisels I could find, but, since they are firmer chisels and were designed for heavy-duty use.....

[David Keller NC]

Mark - Not sure if you've already found what you wanted, but I just got the new Woodcraft catalog yesterday, and there's a set of 4 true socket firmer chisels in it:

http://www.woodcraft.com/Catalog/ProductPage.aspx?prodid=83&ss=8e7512e8-fbca-46fd-9884-e2df040a9308

They're "Woodcraft" brand, but it's likely they were OEM'ed by someone else. If you send them an e-mail or call them, they might tell you who made them for Woodcraft.