Reducing an electric bill

[Lee Schierer]

Our church is looking at ways to reduce the electric bill. We contacted the local electric company and their representative came out and looked things over and gave a few pointers. One of his suggestions was on Sunday morning when we turn on the lights in the sanctuary (25-30 150 watt halogen bulbs) that we turn the rows on one at a time a few minutes apart and it will save cost. He said the sudden surge of turning them all on at once would trigger a higher KW usage.

If the meter outside reads in kilowatts what difference does it make if I turn the lights on one at a time over several minutes versus turning them on one at a time a second or so apart. The total current use should be the same either way right? Unless we were able to flip all the switches simultaneously the inrush current through the lamps should be the same whether I turn them on seconds apart or minutes apart.

Am I missing something here?

[Chris Padilla]

I think the rep is all wet. We'd all be paying higher bills if inrush current dictated the tier of power we got stuck on. The power company AVERAGES your power useage over time AT specific times to determine your tier, I believe (makes sense to me anyway).

Oh, and your meter reads in kilowatt-HOURS (a unit of energy...not power).

Switch those hot energy hog lights with T8s and you may just make it into heaven, Lee! ;)

[Charlie Reals]

Lee, The rep IS all wet. Having spent 40 years with a public utility and having stood in the reps shoes I honestly never heard that one. You are one of many the rep has to see and if they can get you somewhat appeased and off the company's back then the quicker they can get to coffee. I spent 22 years 4 to midnight straightening out the damage the reps did to customer relations.
Just my 2c's based on a lifes experience.

[Darius Ferlas]

If we go into details then indeed there will be surge of power that, between the wire gauges, number of bulbs, distances etc, will ad up to... I dunno... just guessing here... 1/4 of a penny a month?
But that's just a guess. It may as well be a full penny or just 1/10.

[Russ Buddle]

Some electric companies do use a Demand Rate for commercial customers. This is a charge totally seperate from Kwh usage. It is based on the highest Kw usage for any 15 minute period in the billing period.

This is why companies like Honeywell, Siemens, and others have divisions that set up computer controls to sync HVAC, and lighting loads in commercial buildings. By controlling when these loads come on, and the sequence, they can insure that all HVAC units are not running at once, or all lighting loads do not come on at the same time, and create higher than necessary electricity billis.

[Charlie Reals]

If we go into details then indeed there will be surge of power that, between the wire gauges, number of bulbs, distances etc, will ad up to... I dunno... just guessing here... 1/4 of a penny a month?
But that's just a guess. It may as well be a full penny or just 1/10.

Bingo:) it might save a 1/4 cent. Most things short of turning your power off will not save that much. Providing all appliances are fairly new and in good repair and things not needed are turned off you are at the mercy of the rate structure and we all know nothing is cheap anymore.

[Zach England]

Doesn't the light of god suffice?

[Jerome Stanek]

I have a load meter on my house and if the load goes up so does the price of a kilowatt. I can use the same amount of kilowatts but if one month I have a load of 5 and the next have a load of 6 then my bill is a lot higher.

[Charlie Reals]

I have a load meter on my house and if the load goes up so does the price of a kilowatt. I can use the same amount of kilowatts but if one month I have a load of 5 and the next have a load of 6 then my bill is a lot higher.

Do you participate in that program or are all the meters on the system demand oriented? We have peak demand programs butt they are voluntary.

[Dave Wagner]

Maybe replace some with compact fluorescents if possible, you can get them in higher wattage ratings for more output. I put 27 Watt DAYLIGHT ones (=100W regular bulbs) in my garage, instead of the 100-150 halogen/floods, they work great for me.

[Jerome Stanek]

everyone has that kind of meter here

[Joe Pelonio]

Some electric companies do use a Demand Rate for commercial customers. This is a charge totally seperate from Kwh usage. It is based on the highest Kw usage for any 15 minute period in the billing period.

This is why companies like Honeywell, Siemens, and others have divisions that set up computer controls to sync HVAC, and lighting loads in commercial buildings. By controlling when these loads come on, and the sequence, they can insure that all HVAC units are not running at once, or all lighting loads do not come on at the same time, and create higher than necessary electricity billis.
In my daytime job as a utilities specialist, I review and pay bills that include some for electric that are over $100,00/month. I also pass on much of that to tenants and have to calculate rates and charges. Yes, commercial accounts of any size are billed for peak use and demand based on the most that is used at one time. This doesn't apply to homes in most areas and I doubt it would make too much difference at a church, which is probably in the small general rate category. Just for reference, here is the rates I have to deal with in Seattle:

http://www.cityofseattle.net/light/accounts/rates/docs/2010/May/2010May_lgc.pdf

and the smaller use rates:
http://www.cityofseattle.net/light/accounts/rates/docs/2010/May/2010May_smc.pdf




There are two others in between.

[Perry Holbrook]

Hey Lee. It's been a bunch of years since I did building energy audits and sold building automation systems for Honeywell and I am sure there have been many changes since then. However, this is what I would suggest.

Let a copy of the electric rate you are currently on and at least 12 months of past bills.

Ask if there are any other rates that are available for the church, and ask your utility comp to run the past bills thru those rates to see if they would be cheaper.

See if there is someone in your area that can do a true un-biased energy audit walk thru of the church.

Once you understand how you are being charged, you will know the areas that have the most potential for savings.

I would assume that you are on some type of time-of-use rate, most buildings that are used part-time should be. This means that you pay lower rates if you use power during the utility off peak vs on peak.

As an example, for a church this usually means pre-cooling the worship area during off peak and limiting use during on peak.

As far as turning lights on, the peak demand is not an instant peak but a rolling average of usually 15 or 30 minutes, the seconds of inrush for the lights will not be reflected on the demand meter.

Anyway, that's a start. Please be careful of the latest snake oil gadget that you'll run across as you start your energy conservation search.

If you think I may be able to help in any way, just send me a PM.

Perry

[Pat Germain]

My suggestion would be to follow the example of my church and stand up a coffee/esspresso bar in the lobby. Staffed with volunteers, it will bring in enough to pay the electric bill and many other things. ;) (Of course, if it's an LDS church, this wouldn't be an option.)

[Zach England]

My suggestion would be to follow the example of my church and stand up a coffee/esspresso bar in the lobby. Staffed with volunteers, it will bring in enough to pay the electric bill and many other things. ;) (Of course, if it's an LDS church, this wouldn't be an option.)

that's awesome

[Matt Meiser]

I heard about a temple once that ran into trouble with vendors in the lobby...

[Pat Germain]

I heard about a temple once that ran into trouble with vendors in the lobby...

Nobody has turned over any tables. The money goes to "the temple" and not "the vendors".

[Matt Meiser]

I figured as much. I actually think its a great idea because it keeps people there to get to know one another and build a bond to the community. But it always cracks me up to think about sales in a church.

Perhaps if the church I grew up in worried more about that than about who follows rules set for the sake of tradition that its leaders don't follow is still be a member.

[Pat Germain]

I figured as much. I actually think its a great idea because it keeps people there to get to know one another and build a bond to the community. But it always cracks me up to think about sales in a church.

Yeah, it can be surprising to people who aren't used to it. And it's actually not in the lobby. It's in a separate area. My church also has a book store which is of a pretty good size. It's a large church. (I'm sure it has a large electric bill.)

[Scott T Smith]

Some electric companies do use a Demand Rate for commercial customers. This is a charge totally seperate from Kwh usage. It is based on the highest Kw usage for any 15 minute period in the billing period.

This is why companies like Honeywell, Siemens, and others have divisions that set up computer controls to sync HVAC, and lighting loads in commercial buildings. By controlling when these loads come on, and the sequence, they can insure that all HVAC units are not running at once, or all lighting loads do not come on at the same time, and create higher than necessary electricity billis.


Russ is absolutely correct. Most homeowner rates do not include a demand charge, but commercial rates do, and most likely that is what the utility rep was referring to.

[Kenneth Hertzog]

Lee
see if your lighting system is on the same leg coming in or if it is
split equally between the two. Assuming its 220 volt panel
if you have more draw on one leg over the other it will make a
higher demand on the one leg and your meter will run faster.
hence a higher electric bill :(
Ken

[Neal Clayton]

yeah but how much could that really effect the bill on one small building?

[Kenneth Hertzog]

if all your draw is on one leg it would be quite a bit.
remember its not just lights its plugs and other appliances
that are 110 volt and not divided equally in the panel
ken

[Jeff Dorlan]

One serious suggestion, that would save immediate money, and pay for itself over time, would be a lighting control system. Dimming lights, controlling loads, using natural light controls, and possible automation could save you money, increase efficiency, and improve the atmosphere of all people who use the space/s.

This is just one of the facets of what I do. If you have any questions, let me know. I'd be happy to help with any other ideas. Good luck.