Seems like Honduran Mahogany is available again

[Mike Hollingsworth]

After 10 years of being less and less available, I've seen HM in all sizes at numerous outlets. Seems like it is available again. I think the prices should come down as it clearly is no longer so rare.

Any thoughts or insights?

[Clisby Clark]

HM is my all time favorite wood to work and looks great, too.

[Peter Quinn]

I'm still not seeing much here in CT. The supplier of my local supplier, Thompson Mahogany in PA was bought out last year, and things still aren;t quite right with the new owners and the supply chain as far as availability of certain woods and sizes. 8/4 African is getting scarce around here, and SA is still not much around. That might be because guys don't want to pay the asking price so the local supplier has stopped getting it?

[John Mark Lane]

Jeez, I didn't know it was unavailable. I've been away for a long time, so anything could have happened. But I thought I had seen Honduran at Condon Lumber in White Plains, NY recently. Maybe I was dreaming. Anyway, I agree, I always found it an absolute pleasure to work with. That and my favorite, black walnut...

[Jim King]

"Swietenia macrophylla" or Honduran Mahogany grows from Central America to Bolivia. It has somehow become the flag bearer for the eco groups such as the WWF to raise money. Peru has been the largest producer of this species for many years but is now limited to cutting 800 trees a year from millions of acres of the Amazon.

To work with mahogany requires special international permits and one is almost considered a criminal when harvesting it. It leaves here in a flawless grade for $900 a cubic meter air dried and $1000 a cubic meter kiln dried. A cubic meter has 424 bf.

As to the future pricing who can predict but the demand is low due to the stigma attached to using it in the US and Europe. I would not think it will have much change in the next few years in price but will become less and less available due to lack of demand.

On another note what is commonly called African Mahogany is not part of or related to the Mahogany species.

African Mahogany is the common name for at least two types of trees: genus Khaya of the family Meliaceae; genus Afzelia of the family Fabaceae (legumes)

[John Shuk]

Is be surprised if Condon's couldn't get some. They have a bigger location in Stormville ny as well. More of a wood shed up there. A really big and awesome wood shed.

[Jim King]

This may help to explain why Mahogany is going out of favor as I explained in an earlier post. True or not this is the mentality of the world today. I guess this is what you could call progress, there are now more people making a living talking against the Mahogany trade than actually working in the trade.


Is the trade in mahogany regulated?
At the 12th Conference of the Parties to the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES) in November 2002, big-leaf mahogany was listed on Appendix II of the convention. CITES is an international treaty, with more than 160 signatory nations, that regulates international wildlife trade. Under the provisions of Appendix II, international trade is strictly regulated - an exporting state must determine that any big-leaf mahogany (including logs, sawn wood, veneer sheets, and plywood) has been legally obtained and that harvest was not detrimental to the survival of the species; only then can a CITES export permit be issued. States importing the products must not accept shipments that are not accompanied by a CITES permit issued by the exporting country.
Is mahogany logged or traded illegally?
Prior to the listing of big-leaf mahogany on CITES Appendix II, the mahogany trade was to be conducted according CITES Appendix III, on which it was previously listed by Bolivia, Brazil, Colombia, Costa Rica, Mexico, and Peru. Evidence exists, however, that much of the trade was not in compliance. Disparities in trade data - importing countries reporting more mahogany imports than exporting countries declared - indicate that there may be substantial illegal logging and trading of mahogany. Illegally logged mahogany is exported out of range states without proper CITES certification, and is almost certainly harvested at levels that are unsustainable.
There is also evidence that mahogany is being harvested in violation of local timber regulations, particularly in Brazil and Peru, the world's largest exporters of mahogany. Mahogany is being harvested from lands belonging to indigenous peoples, in violation of Brazilian and Peruvian law. Recent press reports indicate that in some cases indigenous groups are allowing illegal logging on their lands and charging a premium to the loggers. In other cases, loggers manipulate the indigenous groups into giving up their hardwood. Conservationists estimate that more than half of the mahogany coming out of Brazil and Peru may have been extracted from indigenous lands.

[John Mark Lane]

Is be surprised if Condon's couldn't get some. They have a bigger location in Stormville ny as well. More of a wood shed up there. A really big and awesome wood shed.


I didn't even know they had a facility in Stormville. I drive up that way a lot. I will check it out. Is it regularly staffed -- like, you can just go there and buy wood like the White Plains location?

That's kinda near the old loony bin in Wingdale. One of my favorite places.

[Nathan Allen]

I'm always amazed how cheap exotics are at the source. For example Madagascar Rosewood or Ebony run around $50 for a 4m log right out of the rainforest. By the time it makes it on a boat (unprocessed) it sells for around $2,000 and by the time it makes it to a retail market the same log will have netted around $20,000.

People will buy the rare exotics at almost any price, especially for instrument manufacture. The best thing done is to regulate the amount culled but the second best thing is to find a way to get more of the money back to the original loggers. That $50 for a log may not seem significant to us, but it is sustaining the families of the people doing the logging, in abject poverty, but I don't think anyone can argue that they are the ones who own the land, own the resource and do the work; they should receive the profits.

[John Shuk]

I didn't even know they had a facility in Stormville. I drive up that way a lot. I will check it out. Is it regularly staffed -- like, you can just go there and buy wood like the White Plains location?

That's kinda near the old loony bin in Wingdale. One of my favorite places.

It's out near Greenhaven. I've only been once. They have alot of cool stuff to choose from. My friend bought nice dry poplar slabs 6 inches thick for vases he turns. I'm in Putnam County over in Cold Spring where in Westchester are you?

[Jim King]

I'm always amazed how cheap exotics are at the source. For example Madagascar Rosewood or Ebony run around $50 for a 4m log right out of the rainforest. By the time it makes it on a boat (unprocessed) it sells for around $2,000 and by the time it makes it to a retail market the same log will have netted around $20,000.


People will buy the rare exotics at almost any price, especially for instrument manufacture. The best thing done is to regulate the amount culled but the second best thing is to find a way to get more of the money back to the original loggers. That $50 for a log may not seem significant to us, but it is sustaining the families of the people doing the logging, in abject poverty, but I don't think anyone can argue that they are the ones who own the land, own the resource and do the work; they should receive the profits.

Nathen:
I can give you a bit of insight on the tropical timber industry in South America as I was involved with it for over 20 years. The numbers I will show are real and not from some Eco groups advertising or somebody trying to save the Indians who are the people that actually make a substistance living from a very small industry. First of all the tropical timber industry in the world is an insignificant player in the wood industry. Lets use the Amazon as an example. The Amazon is the size of the US and is located in eight countries. Those eight countries produce 2.5 times the anual production of Oregon and dropping.
Now lets take as an example Mahogany of which the local family is currently paid about $1 a foot in log form delivered / floated to a beach nearest to a mill. The crane, barge and tugboat cost to finish the trip to an unloading site near the mill are at least 10 cents a bf. The mill charges 10 cents a bf for cutting and 23 cents for drying. Taxes on Mahogany are on average 15 cents a board foot. The export documentation , freight to the port, port charges, inspections etc. plus freight to the US port are about 48 cents. A muture Mahogany tree is usually hollow or a bad core and dying and has a mill loss of over 30% of at leat 20% in the selection and grading process. Or 50 cents.
We now have about $2.50 invested to produce a less than $3.00 product and pay for a million dollar infrastructure. It is not a feasable business. The profits are made in the consuming countries and are not then what they first seem. The wholesaler and retailer of tropicals sit on them many times for years and tie up thier money but in the end the developing countries do make the lions share.

Now to the Exotics such as Ebony and the Rose Woods. As the logs are small and bad quality running them thru a sawmill as we know them is rarely possible. The yeild on an Ebony or Rosewood log can be from 5 to 30 %. The Exotics are typically the product of what you would consider a garage operation who buys the logs and runs one side over a jointer about 20 times to get a straigt surface and then the same with the sesond side to get something that can be passed thru a large table saw and with luck has something left when the sapwood has been eliminated.
These types of exotics leave here at an average of $5 a board foot and the retailer does make a serious mark up but has a very small volume of sales per species.

If tropical woods were a good business we would have the multi nationals from the States and Canada here doing good sustainable forestry and no one would have to worry about the slash and burn by the locals for subsistance farming and cocaine production resulting in deforestation. Contrary to all the propaganda you see , forestry in the Amazon does not create deforestation. Deforestation always has an agenda behind it such as subsistance farming , cocaine or in the eastern savanahs of the Amazon where there is good soil the land is cleared for farming as was done in areas of the US.

I hope this clarifies the situation a bit. All of this crazy ecology industry propaganda is what is forcing the people back into deforestation as they are now not allowed to cut a tree legally for sale but slash and burn is OK because it is part of thier culture. Figure that one out. I could go on forever about the realities of tropical forestry vs the popular sales pitches are by the Eco industry.
I forgot to mention that even if you do own the land here which is a very small portion the Government still owns the trees and you pay a tax to the Government to harvest them. This includes all land, titles, concessions, Indian lands or whatever.
Jim

[John Mark Lane]

It's out near Greenhaven. I've only been once. They have alot of cool stuff to choose from. My friend bought nice dry poplar slabs 6 inches thick for vases he turns. I'm in Putnam County over in Cold Spring where in Westchester are you?

John, I'm in Larchmont, but work in White Plains. We have a summer rental in Kent, CT, so I'm back and forth a lot. Would like to buy you a beverage if you get anywhere near any of the above towns.

Mark

[John Shuk]

I don't get to Larchmont much but it is a nice town. White Plains isn't too far. I Cover much of Northern Westchester working for the large incumbant phone/internet/tv company. It would be nice to get some Hudson Valley Creekers together.

[John Mark Lane]

Nathen:
I can give you a bit of insight on the tropical timber industry in South America as I was involved with it for over 20 years. The numbers I will show are real and not from some Eco groups advertising or somebody trying to save the Indians who are the people that actually make a substistance living from a very small industry. First of all the tropical timber industry in the world is an insignificant player in the wood industry. Lets use the Amazon as an example. The Amazon is the size of the US and is located in eight countries. Those eight countries produce 2.5 times the anual production of Oregon and dropping.
Now lets take as an example Mahogany of which the local family is currently paid about $1 a foot in log form delivered / floated to a beach nearest to a mill. The crane, barge and tugboat cost to finish the trip to an unloading site near the mill are at least 10 cents a bf. The mill charges 10 cents a bf for cutting and 23 cents for drying. Taxes on Mahogany are on average 15 cents a board foot. The export documentation , freight to the port, port charges, inspections etc. plus freight to the US port are about 48 cents. A muture Mahogany tree is usually hollow or a bad core and dying and has a mill loss of over 30% of at leat 20% in the selection and grading process. Or 50 cents.
We now have about $2.50 invested to produce a less than $3.00 product and pay for a million dollar infrastructure. It is not a feasable business. The profits are made in the consuming countries and are not then what they first seem. The wholesaler and retailer of tropicals sit on them many times for years and tie up thier money but in the end the developing countries do make the lions share.

Now to the Exotics such as Ebony and the Rose Woods. As the logs are small and bad quality running them thru a sawmill as we know them is rarely possible. The yeild on an Ebony or Rosewood log can be from 5 to 30 %. The Exotics are typically the product of what you would consider a garage operation who buys the logs and runs one side over a jointer about 20 times to get a straigt surface and then the same with the sesond side to get something that can be passed thru a large table saw and with luck has something left when the sapwood has been eliminated.
These types of exotics leave here at an average of $5 a board foot and the retailer does make a serious mark up but has a very small volume of sales per species.

If tropical woods were a good business we would have the multi nationals from the States and Canada here doing good sustainable forestry and no one would have to worry about the slash and burn by the locals for subsistance farming and cocaine production resulting in deforestation. Contrary to all the propaganda you see , forestry in the Amazon does not create deforestation. Deforestation always has an agenda behind it such as subsistance farming , cocaine or in the eastern savanahs of the Amazon where there is good soil the land is cleared for farming as was done in areas of the US.

I hope this clarifies the situation a bit. All of this crazy ecology industry propaganda is what is forcing the people back into deforestation as they are now not allowed to cut a tree legally for sale but slash and burn is OK because it is part of thier culture. Figure that one out. I could go on forever about the realities of tropical forestry vs the popular sales pitches are by the Eco industry.
I forgot to mention that even if you do own the land here which is a very small portion the Government still owns the trees and you pay a tax to the Government to harvest them. This includes all land, titles, concessions, Indian lands or whatever.
Jim


Jim, thank you for that very insightful and sobering post. I was tempted to ask some of these questions, but thought perhaps I shouldn't. But as is often the case, things are not as "simple" as they seem (especially to people with an ideological bent).

In the end, I suppose there is and always has been a fairly small market for exotic hardwoods. The market is growing smaller, and the context in which the market must exists is growing more complex. Which in turn contributes to the former. Etc. It's tempting to grab as much of the stuff as you can find, and store it carefully. Not for financial gain, so much, as I think that would be a quixotic adventure, but for the shere and increasingly rare pleasure of working with the stuff.

Anyway, thanks.

Mark

[John Mark Lane]

I don't get to Larchmont much but it is a nice town. White Plains isn't too far. I Cover much of Northern Westchester working for the large incumbant phone/internet/tv company. It would be nice to get some Hudson Valley Creekers together.

I agree. Perhaps we should see if a few people would like to meet at Condon one morning, pick up a few pieces of wood, and have lunch nearby. I'd be up for that. Or meet early for breakfast or coffee, then go to Condon.

[John Shuk]

That sounds good to me. I mostly work noon to eight so mornings aren't bad for me.

[Damon Stathatos]

Nathen:
I can give you a bit of insight on the tropical timber industry in South America ...
Jim

Jim:

Thank you for the insight into the origins of the wood from it's source. It is now easier to see how a $1 board foot becomes $3 by the time it hits the boat. I'm also guessing that the $1/$3 board foot is based upon random widths and lengths of lumber (as opposed to specified sizes, such as 'I want all big, huge, beautiful, flawless slabs of it').

As a small importer of exotics from Central and South America, I can attest that the escalation in cost and price does not stop at the boat, it just begins again and continues for the 'new' owner. Usually as an importer, you need custom brokers and shipping agents on both sides of the shipment (the origin and destination) to handle the export documentation, container logistics, sanitation and fumigation at the source, the ocean freight, and the entry or customs upon its arrival, import documentation and permits, international and domestic banking fees, a trucking company to transport from the dock to your warehouse, and manpower to unload, stack, sticker, and grade the shipment. It doesn't matter if the wood had originally been air or kiln dried because when you open the container at the destination, it's like opening a mini-tropical rain forest (an ecosystem in and of itself), a container load of wood with any moisture content at all becomes a sauna when sealed for an extended period of time while in transit. It's actually as if it's raining (moisture condensation and release from the ceiling of the shipping container) when you first step inside the box. As an importer, you can 'kiss off' a goodly percentage of your shipment as 'good enough to load' but 'not good enough to sell,' with surface and end checking, 'jungle' planing, squaring, and ripping, and then throw in cupping, twisting, and the like. It doesn't matter if the wood in the box is expensive or cheap to begin with because the costs are pretty much the same to bring it in so, if you're bringing in inexpensive wood the 'landing' costs are high as a percentage of the total and in some of my experiences can increase by one-half to double the cost of the shipment's FOB cost. And all this is if there are no 'snags' along the way, which is RARELY the case.

My experience with swietenia macrophylla besides the fact that my documentation and permits were 'to the letter' perfect resulted in an 'arbitrary' customs exam. First absolute scrutiny over the paperwork, then an x-ray exam of the container, then a physical exam of the container, then a 'devanning and further physical inspection' of the container, and finally a reloading and release of the container, all by our U.S. Customs service. Even though it was our customs service that required all of this, all expenses associated with and resulting from are to the account of the importer. Since it's no 'sweat off of their backs,' and 'time is of no concern' to them, the shipment sat waiting for their inspections with intervals that totaled over three weeks, further incurring the wrath in the form of punitive fees from the steamship company for overdue container fees and offsite storage fees. In a situation such as this, no one loses out (the source or original vendor, U.S. Customs service, or steamship company or even the end consumer due to competitive pricing) because all costs are thrown upon the guy bringing the shipment in, even though everything eventually was proved to be exactly as stated and in order.

Lastly, and to stress a point that you originally brought up, then the wood can sit in a warehouse, sometime for months to years, accompanied only by its surrounding paid staff, a staff which can include a bookkeeper, who is only there to pay the utilities, rent, worker's comp, payroll, insurance premiums, city fees and taxes, advertising costs, machine costs, bank and accounting fees, and on, and on, and on.

In short, it is easy to see how a $1 foot of wood can become something much, much more than that, even if the guy shelling out the money for it, expects to or wants to make some sort of profit from it.

Side Note to the OP: Mike, you knew that I couldn't stand on the sidelines forever with this thread...I just had to throw in my two cents worth, or in this case, my twenty cents worth. Also, when you coming back up to SM? I've still got your coco board, I've been turning a lot lately, you should come up and check it out.

[Craig D Peltier]

I have a slightly different question on identifying khaya from say HM. The only thing I have been told by a very large hardwoods supplier owner, was that true HM weighs alot more, easiest way to tell. I think khaya looks like sapele alot of times in its pores and grain.
I recenty got about 185 bd feet of mahogany for $251. Its a mix of HM and Khaya I think. On one of the boards it said Hondo. I know that some of the other lots that sold had the same writing on them from the supplier ( not the auction people).
Some boards do feel a quite a bit heavier.

Thannks

[Van Huskey]

Jim, I'll add some more thanks for the insights!