Plane sharpening advice

[Phillip Ngan]

Over the past 2 years I've acquired a useful set of planes through craigslist and ebay and now am a position to tune them all. For each plane in this set, what bevel angle would you use, how much camber would you put on, and for what purpose would you use them. (Dare I ask - am I missing any obvious size - no, don't tell me, please)

Veritas low angle block plane
Stanley low angle block plane
Lie-Nielsen 4 1/2
Bedrock 605 (typo, was 504 - sorry it was late at night when I typed this)
Bailey 5
Union 5
Bailey 5 1/2
Veritas Bevel Up Jack
Bedrock 7

It's been fun building up the collection. The planes will be used primarily to build cabinets and flat work, like dressers and beds. BTW my favorite planes are the bedrocks - they feel balanced and well weighted. The most disappointing is the Union - the cut depth mechanism is quirky and the tote is too small (and I have small hands).

[Chris Griggs]

Okay, so that's actually more planes than I own so maybe I shouldn't be giving advice, but here it goes. Also, with some of those planes there are several schools of thought on whether or not the irons should be cambered.

Veritas low angle block plane - Get two blades. Keep one sharpened straight across at around 25 degrees. Hone a micro bevel on the other to about 38 degrees and using finger pressure put a touch of camber in the blade. This will let you use it as a small high angle smoother

Stanley low angle block plane - I'd keep this at a low angle around 25-30 degrees and hone a hint of camber into it. A lot of people suggest keeping block plane blades totally straight, but I think a little camber is helpful when flushing up joints

Lie-Nielsen 4 1/2 - First of all, I am very jealous. Grind to 25 degrees and hone to 30 degress Using finger pressure again put a VERY slight camper to the blade.

Bedrock 504 - Same as above, maybe a touch more camber so you can use it for slightly thicker shavings

Bailey 5 and Union 5 - I'd use these both a roughing planes. Grind to 25 degrees with a heavy camber and hone at 30. An 8-10 inch radius is often suggested. Maybe put little less camber in the second to use for slightly less rough work.

Bailey 5 1/2 - Grind 25 and hone at 30. I'd set this up as a small jointer/trying plane. Like with the smoother use finger pressure to add camber, but put more in than on a smoother. How much is hard to quantify, but after a while you find an amount that suits you.

Veritas Bevel Up Jack-I'd keep this at a low 25 degree angle with no camber to use as a shooting plane. Of course, you can have several blades for this and set it up a number of ways.

Bedrock 7 - This one will generate debate. I'd set it up like the 51/2 with a little camber. I like the camber on my jointer mainly because it let me easily switch from the planing edge of a board to the face. Also, since a cambered blade cuts heavier in the middle than the edge it can be used to help you bring the edge of a board into square with the face. That said many people advocate a blade with no camber for edge jointing. I'd say try with and w/o camber and see what you prefer. Or get a second blade.

Just my two cents. Hopefully some more experienced people will chime in.

[lowell holmes]

I would start with one plane, probably the Veritas LA Block and sharpen it . You will have definite ideas after you do the one.

We all have different techniques we follow. I am on technique number 101. :)

If you've never sharpened before, you have a lot of choices to consider about how to do it.

The Norton video about hand sharpening has been a huge help to me.

[Zach England]

I'd splurge $25 for the David Charlesworth DVD. I'd been using planes (more or less) successfully for a while when I got it and it really took the setup and sharpening to the next level for me.

[bob blakeborough]

Kind of in the same boat... I have been disecting Leonard Lee's book "Complete Guide To Sharpening" and am lucky enough to have been offered some lessons for the Local LV store, but until then (and probably quite a while after) I would not be much help I'm sure. I am going to bookmark this thread though, for my learning purposes!

[David Weaver]

I'd splurge $25 for the David Charlesworth DVD. I'd been using planes (more or less) successfully for a while when I got it and it really took the setup and sharpening to the next level for me.

Great DVD to start with. It'll put your wife and relatives to sleep and keep them out of your hair. Would flatten stones a different way than david does now that there are cheaper and faster means to do it, but that's about it. I think, having tried about every sharpening technique and every type of stone and guide / no guide, etc, that DC's method gives you the best chance for immediate success in making an edge you'll not surpass no matter how long you do woodworking. You may move away from it for some things later, like chisels and cambered blades, etc, but it's still a very good method for stuff like controlling camber on smoothers in a very exact way, even if you vacate the method for most sharpening.

Buy a jeweler's loupe, too - just a real cheap one, like $3 from HF. There's no magic to sharpening. When you think that you've gotten all the way to the edge, but you're not getting what you want, you'll find you didn't with the loupe. Once you learn to get visual confirmation that the finest scratches from the finish stone go all the way to the edge, you'll be shocked and pleased with the results and the edge longevity.

Wax the bottom of your planes, too - paraffin. Fatigue and friction will make you think that a plane is getting dull often long before it's really in need of a resharpening.

[Phillip Ngan]

Thanks for all the pointers to David Charlesworth's DVD on sharpening. I have watched it a couple of times and made shop notes from it. I think I'm pretty comfortable with the sharpening technique for plane blades. I can second that it is a great video on sharpening. I haven't read Leonard Lee's book yet, but one day I will to learn how to sharpen chisels (does it cover saws?) For planes though, I found that DC technique really makes sense - I especially like the ruler trick for flattening the back quickly.

My only question surrounding DC's method is sharpening thick blades such as the blade on the Veritas Bevel Up Jack (Bob you'd be interested in this too seeing all the BU planes you have). DC alludes to hollow grinding the bevels - but for thick blades this will create a pretty large "hollow". I know Lie-Nielsen's official recommendation is not to hollow grind. I'm comfortable hollow grinding the thinner bevel down blades, but I'm tempted to flat grind the thicker BU blades. Comments?

My question is more about given the planes that I have, what bevel angles and cambers to put on each of them so that they complement each other and so that they are appropriate for the functions that they should be used. In particular, I have three #5's, and I was wondering how I should bevel/camber these, or are they redundant and I should keep only one of them.

Chris, thanks for the pointers. Like you, I think a cambered jointer blade is the easiest way to free-hand joint the long edge - using the lateral position of the plane to adjust the angle between the edge and the true face. Everything you said has made a lot of sense to me.

I didn't mention that I also have a LN large scraping plane for figured wood which is why I don't have a high angle smoother - given the scraper, do you think I need a high angle smoother (which I can do using additional BU blades ground to a steeper angle) or are they used for different purposes?

[Jeremy Dorn]

Heh, redundant planes....there is no such thing, or at least thats the story I continue to stick to when my wife asks why more planes have shown up on my shelves since she was last in the shop :)

I've got a medium sized army of planes at this point and like to use duplicates of sizes to test out various different sharpening styles. Take your 3x 5's and the 5.5 for that matter. For starters I'd grind them all to a 25 degree bevel using your method of choice, grinder, stones, sandpaper, worksharp etc. Then I'd set one up with a 30 degree secondary bevel, leaving the blade square to the sides, and relieve the corners using a small mill file to eliminate plane tracks (this is actully how I keep almost all my planes setup). Next I'd take another #5, and put a modest camber on it, say an 8" or 10" radius using a combination of a bench grinder and some stones. Then I'd take another one of the #5s and grind a much less steep camber, just enough to see light on the corners when held up to a square.

With these setups on equivalent planes, you can see how each of them behaves in use, and which style or styles you prefer to keep around. I find that I rarely do surfacing of rough boards, so cambered irons are usually not worth the amt of work required to shape them to me. Knowing this, I like to keep most of my planes setup with the afore mentioned straight across shape with rounded corners to make them perform when when doing minor leveling/smoothing of parts.

If I were in your shoes I'd try something along those lines with your jacks, before getting too caught up in making a decision. BTW, I'd definately leave the Veritas LAJ setup with the 25 degree iron, ground straight across, this will prove extremely useful to you as a shooting plane, and for any tasks where end grain and face grain meet on a surface. That's how I keep both my LN #62 and Veritas LAJ setup (I use one for shooting exclusively, and one for any end grain work like dovetail cleanup).

As far as High angle smoothing goes, I'd hold off on worrying about that. Learn to sharpen and use the 4.5 for smoothing and see if it fits your needs for the types of wood species you use. Having the LN scraping plane to fall back on will help you eliminate issues you may run into where a high angle smoother might be useful. I find that for almost all woods I work with a standard 45 degree bed smoother is sufficient, and if I have trouble that one of my various scraping blades coupled with a toothing iron in the LAJ will take care of just about any problems I run into.


JD

[David Weaver]

Thanks for all the pointers to David Charlesworth's DVD on sharpening. I have watched it a couple of times and made shop notes from it. I think I'm pretty comfortable with the sharpening technique for plane blades. I can second that it is a great video on sharpening. I haven't read Leonard Lee's book yet, but one day I will to learn how to sharpen chisels (does it cover saws?) For planes though, I found that DC technique really makes sense - I especially like the ruler trick for flattening the back quickly.

My only question surrounding DC's method is sharpening thick blades such as the blade on the Veritas Bevel Up Jack (Bob you'd be interested in this too seeing all the BU planes you have). DC alludes to hollow grinding the bevels - but for thick blades this will create a pretty large "hollow". I know Lie-Nielsen's official recommendation is not to hollow grind. I'm comfortable hollow grinding the thinner bevel down blades, but I'm tempted to flat grind the thicker BU blades. Comments?

My question is more about given the planes that I have, what bevel angles and cambers to put on each of them so that they complement each other and so that they are appropriate for the functions that they should be used. In particular, I have three #5's, and I was wondering how I should bevel/camber these, or are they redundant and I should keep only one of them.

Chris, thanks for the pointers. Like you, I think a cambered jointer blade is the easiest way to free-hand joint the long edge - using the lateral position of the plane to adjust the angle between the edge and the true face. Everything you said has made a lot of sense to me.

I didn't mention that I also have a LN large scraping plane for figured wood which is why I don't have a high angle smoother - given the scraper, do you think I need a high angle smoother (which I can do using additional BU blades ground to a steeper angle) or are they used for different purposes?

Hollow grind all of them for the primary grind, or as the only grind if you decide to do something freehand, including chisels.

No problem. You'll see the mind-melting discussion last week about whether or not one method or the other weakens the edge, but nobody can testify that in practice, that one method made the edge weak where another one didn't at the same primary angle.

LN probably doesn't want people hollow grinding plane blades because they have a lot of beginners buying tools, and they'd probably tie up their customer service talking about irons that don't hold their edge and "unexpectedly turned blue when they were 'sharpening' them".

The number of things that a scraper plane with a good honed hook on it doesn't do that a very steep high angle plane would do for practical purposes are very few. Plus, you can either stack the chipbreaker (properly tuned) almost right on the edge of the iron or back bevel one of your cheaper planes to get the same effective angle as a high bedded angle plane.

[Jim Koepke]

There are a lot of good ways to set these up.

You do not mention if you start with rough milled wood or not.

If you can use a scrub plane, it sounds like the Union #5 would be the candidate for this. For this, I might go 30 -35° on the bevel just to be a bit tougher.

If I ever get around to setting up my grind stone, I will hollow grind more blades. Most of the time a flat bevel works great for me as long as my water stones are kept flat.

For most standard work, a 25° angle works fine. For bevel up planes, there may be an advantage to have extra blades ground at different angles.

There is nothing wrong with micro bevels, only one of my blades has this intentionally. That is a very thick blade that is on my bevel up jack plane and it is difficult to flat sharpen the huge bevel. I do this free hand and it works fine for me.

I do a lot of my blades straight across and may relieve the corners just a bit. If real light cuts are taken, there will not be big gouges left as planing tracks. Look at what a scrub plane leaves behind. That is a cambered blade and it leaves tracks.

I have quite a few block planes and just bought another. It is great to have one set up for fine shavings to trim dowels and another to put a chamfer on a corner. Then there is alway the need to knock off just a little from some end grain or shooting a very small piece. This is another place where you may want to have different blades with different angles or just keep buying them as they show up at yard sales.

For the other #5s, I would set the Bailey for taking heavy cuts and the Bedrock for taking very light cuts and use it like a long smoother.

The LN #4-1/2 is a good smoother and you may even want to consider getting a high angle frog for this in the future.

The #5-1/2 finds use in my shop as a short jointer and for surfacing small panels at or times when I am too tired to swing around a #7 or #8.

Veritas Bevel up Jack would be my main shooting board plane. My choice was to buy an LN #62 for that job.

For the 607 again, this would depend on the woods you use. 25 - 30° would be my suggestion. The set up on this depends on your working style. If you dimension lumber using planes, then you will want to set this up for a thicker cut with the frog back. If you are just truing and straightening, you may want to have a smaller mouth on this.

jim

[Chris Griggs]

That's how I keep both my LN #62 and Veritas LAJ setup (I use one for shooting exclusively, and one for any end grain work like dovetail cleanup).
JD

Which one do you use for shooting and which one for other end grain work and why? I would think the LN would be nice for shooting with the hot dog, but the wide sides and extra wait of the LV seem like they might make it better for shooting.

Obviously, they are very similar and of equal quality, but I've always been curious if they excel at slightly different tasks.

[Phillip Ngan]

First off, thanks for all the advice. It has been very helpful. The collective wisdom in this thread seems to be in pretty close agreement. Based on the comments, here is what I might try:


Veritas Block: 25°, no camber for general work
Stanley Block: 25°, no camber, for my 8 year old when she joins me in the shop
Lie-Nielsen 4 1/2: 25° primary, 30° secondary, minute camber for final surface smoothing
Bedrock 605: 25° primary, 30° secondary, slightly larger camber than the 4 1/2 for smoothing prior to the 4 1/2
Bailey 5: 25° primary, 30° secondary, 10" camber for moderate dimensioning
Union 5: 25° primary, 30° secondary, 10° back bevel, minute camber for smoothing figured and reversing grain
Bailey 5 1/2, 25° primary, 30° secondary, small camber, used for truing small pieces
Veritas Bevel Up Low Angle Jack, 25°, no camber for shooting end grain
Bedrock 7, 25°primary, 30°secondary, for truing surfaces and long grain edges
Large Scraping Plane for final final smoothing, and dealing with figured woods (mainly birdseye and curly maple)


Jim - good questions. The stock I use is a mix of milled and rough lumber. However, I also use a stationary power jointer and thicknesser. So my planes won't be used much for gross dimensioning work.

David + Jeremy - thanks for confirming that I won't need a high angle plane given that I have a scraping plane

David - good idea about using a loupe. I have one of these at home but never thought to use it in the wood shop. Also good idea about the back bevel - a great use for one of the 'redundant' #5's.

[Jim Koepke]

avid - good idea about using a loupe. I have one of these at home but never thought to use it in the wood shop. Also good idea about the back bevel - a great use for one of the 'redundant' #5's.


I also use a loupe at times to inspect blades.

Another trick to learn is to hold a blade under a light source. Have the edge pointing at you and lift or lower the back of the blade so the edge stays on the same axis. On a dull blade you will see a bright line when the light reflects off of the dulled edge.

jim

[Bill W Jenkins]

Hi,

I’ve been doing a lot of looking around for different types of hand planes and I ended up with a Veritas low angle block and a small 7 ½ " rosewood spokeshave also form Lee Valley or “LV” as I see you old hands call it. Ha! I never owned a hand plane so I definitely can’t make recommendations but I wanted to attempt to add something to a thread or two since I’ve been learning so much here the last few days.

I found a couple of tools that I thought I would pass along.The fancy one will sharpen irons and chisels from 1/8” to 2”(I think) but the spokeshave I purchased is the old traditional type that has pins and is also too short for the fancy method.

http://www.eagleamerica.com/product/v440-0609/sharpening_supplies This is on sale at the moment. There are a few lower priced deals out there but not nearly as good a value. Note; There are two videos that will show off the system.

For the traditional spoke shave I went with this little system. http://www.eagleamerica.com/product/v440-0000/sharpening_supplies

I also learned there is a method that uses different grits of "Sharpening Paper"for spokeshave sharpening. I understand the paper is a little different than sand papers that look the same. Of course if you have a more modern iron then the fancy system should work. It also seems that you could use the honing stones from the first link to work the traditional spokeshave but there is a bit of dead area on the sides of these sharpening blocks that could prevent the very far sides of the iron to be sharpened on the old fasioned shave iron. I may end up with other spoke shaves so I decided to go ahead and get the diamond sticks.

BTW: I think the “Shooting Board” is the most interesting technique that I picked up on recently. It's been interesting to learn about planes but also kind of shocking / Sad (Ha!) because one good plane can easily cost more than a good bandsaw!

If you think that these are worth mentioning in a different thread, please do so. Also; I'm sure many will prefer a wet stone technique and it is probably just as easy and even more accurate. I don't know much about hnad planes yet but I figure having a hand plane without a sharpening system makes as much sense as having a computer without a data backup system.

Thanks,
BillJ

[David Weaver]

http://www.eagleamerica.com/product/v440-0609/sharpening_supplies This is on sale at the moment. There are a few lower priced deals out there but not nearly as good a value. Note; There are two videos that will show off the system.

I would avoid this system - entirely, or any of the various branded versions of it in the UK and US. It's expensive and it doesn't give you the flexibility you'll need to sharpen tools for woodworking. It'll also be slow compared to a cheap set of stones with a an eclipse style honing guide.

If I were in the market for cheap and I was just starting, I would stick with one of the medium hardness 1000 stone and either a 6000 or 8000 grit waterstone. Or if money was really tight, a tube of autosol and an MDF board from HD that you could cut stone sized pieces off of. Autosol cuts extremely fast when it's fresh and it leaves a sharp edge.

Or if I had no A2 steel tools, a single large hard arkansas stone (scuff one side and leave the other side smooth) and some cowhide.

I would take any of those, including a $25 suehiro 800 stone and MDF with paste over any of the small contraptions that do side sharpening or any other very limited range of sharpening with no control left to the user. Guaranteed you'll get a better edge with them, and faster.

I don't mean to single out your response, just addressing all of these items in general. It's very easy to sharpen with one stone that hones, and one that polishes, and if an eclipse guide is needed to keep the angle of a tool consistent, you'll be much better off with the guide and a couple of stones.

[Sam Takeuchi]

This is a 2 year old thread.

[Jim Koepke]

This is a 2 year old thread.

Yes, but it is an age old discussion.

It is nice to see a new member who actually looked through old posts to seek out an answer as opposed to starting a new thread for something that has been covered a multitude of times.

BTW Bill, Welcome to the Creek, enjoy the plunge.

My opinion is that every system for sharpening has its merits. For some of us it may be possible to find one system that fits all of our needs. For me, they all work.My needs are different than yours. Not only do I sharpen wood working tools, but my gardening tools get touched up now and again. It doesn't seem like a good use of a water stone to sharpen a shovel.

jtk

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I found a couple of tools that I thought I would pass along.The fancy one will sharpen irons and chisels from 1/8” to 2”(I think) but the spokeshave I purchased is the old traditional type that has pins and is also too short for the fancy method.

http://www.eagleamerica.com/product/v440-0609/sharpening_supplies This is on sale at the moment. There are a few lower priced deals out there but not nearly as good a value. Note; There are two videos that will show off the system.

Welcome to the forum Bill..... Did you buy this from Eagle America? If so, are you happy with it. Off hand, it seems a bit limiting, but, if it does a good job for you, it is a good start. Am interested how it worked if you opted for it. i started with sandpaper and a honing guide. Now I use a far more complex system: Tormek to add a hollow grind, slow speed dry grinder for serious grinding, some water stones, and even some diamond stones. I put the final edge on by hand.



BTW: I think the “Shooting Board” is the most interesting technique that I picked up on recently. It's been interesting to learn about planes but also kind of shocking / Sad (Ha!) because one good plane can easily cost more than a good bandsaw!

My first plane was very expensive because I did not trust myself to tune up an existing plane out the gate. If you live near by, you can certainly try some of my equipment.....

[Bill W Jenkins]

Thanks for the post and I'm sure others will also agree with your points but I already put in my order. I'll check both systems out and report back after I've had a chance to use them. Of course as far as wet stones go, all I know is how to sharpen a hunting knife and that Arkansas Wet Stones are of high quality. I grew up there and had one.

From a humorous angle the 2 short videos are so much more fun to watch than some kind person going through all the wet stone details. Hey the sold me but I was looking for a low cost, simple and compact kind of deal and they said everything I wanted to hear. Ha! :)

Thanks,
BillJ

[Jim Koepke]

they said everything I wanted to hear.

From: "Selling Anything to Anyone" 101.

Or as some call it, "A Sure Way to Retire Warm For Eternity."

jtk

[Bill W Jenkins]

Hey Andrew, I'm in TN and Thank You and anyone that wants to jump into what I know his old stuff for just about everyone.

Yes I did purchase the stuff from Eagle but it still might fit my situation. I’ll make a report but I’m just getting started with my pantry room shop. I live in an apartment. A 16” scroll saw, a few planes and hopefully a few jigs. I’ve worked with wood some but I look forward to a simple approach that hopefully can still lead to quality results. I’ve got a lot of big ideas on a small scale. :D

Low confidence level was definitely one reason for a few of my limited tool selections plus being a bit overwhelmed and just wanting to get at my projects. I think the marketing people out there understand this mind set all too well. In other words, those boys saw me coming a country mile away. HA!

I admit I always enjoyed sharpening knifes and was amazed each time how sharp the blade would end up. Probably a bit too sharp and too thin so I’m all for the wet stone methods that have been proven over and over.

I almost forgot to mention that a lady at LV recommended that I mark the bevel edge of my small spokeshave with a Sharpie or other brand of permanent marker so that I can keep an eye on how my blade is wearing. Her main point was it could be easy to put off sharpening and lose your bevel.

Bill

[James Taglienti]

This is a 2 year old thread.

So why'd you post? :)

[Sam Takeuchi]

So why'd you post? :) It was for a post that was deleted after I posted it.

[Jim Matthews]

You have one of the best handtool resources available, a few timezones away in Perth, Australia.

Derek Cohen has built a comprehensive website (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/) that covers many of the pitfalls, and solutions to these common problems.
I have found his advice nearly indespensible, for a couple of sticky problems.

Here's my basic advice to anyone working mostly with handtools;

Better lighting makes everything easier.
Use an indelible marker on any edge you wish to sharpen - that makes your progress obvious.
All sharpening methods are effective, if you're consistent - pick one that works and stay with it.
(I use the Shapton stones for sharpening, coarse sandpaper for grinding without any machines.)

If you're like most of us, it's an entertaining hobby - so why rush? Hand tools are slower, but it's all about YOU.

Hand tools mean less overall expense, and quiet pursuit of beauty.
Who wants to work with a glorified vacuum cleaner howling in the corner?

Lastly - if you're having difficulty sharpening older plane blades, cut to the chase and buy a replacement from the major makers -
this is an instance where exchanging money for time is a bargain; if what you want is to work with wood.

[Jim Koepke]

Lastly - if you're having difficulty sharpening older plane blades, cut to the chase and buy a replacement from the major makers -
this is an instance where exchanging money for time is a bargain; if what you want is to work with wood.

This depends on if one's difficulty is caused the blade or inexperience. If the old blade is not the problem, the user will still be likely to have a problem sharpening a new blade.

Some old blades are good users. Some should be repurposed of other uses. Pits do not sharpen, they must be worked away.

Two of my old Stanley blades with the V logo are quite different. One is very hard and takes a bit of time to get a good edge.

One of my most used tools for sharpening is a magnifier lamp to inspect the edge. Little specks of reflected light are dull spots on the edge.

jtk

[Greg Portland]

I also learned there is a method that uses different grits of "Sharpening Paper"for spokeshave sharpening.
Not just spokeshaves, you can use sandpaper for a variety of blades. Search for "Scary Sharp" to get more information. There are now commercial systems along with jigs for stationary belt sanders that use sandpaper as the sharpening medium. I used the scary sharp method for a few years and it produced great results.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I used the scary sharp method for quite some time. Eventually, though, the cost of sandpaper adds up. I remember hitting a point where I realized I had spent more in paper than if I had just bought some cheap Naniwa superstones or something.

I still use it here and there for rough edge shaping, or wrapped around dowels and stuff for touching up gouges or profiled tools when stopping won't do anymore (I really need some slipstones sooner or later)

The two best tips I can think of for sandpaper sharpening is to buy larger quantities of sheets (buying a few sheets at a time at the auto parts store gets expensive fast over buying a larger package) and that getting adding either a strop and/or some of the film-backed super fine papers for a better final edge and polish.