We have hashed out "Square" - how about "Level"

[Glenn Vaughn]

When is level not a good idea?

I am finally almost finished with 15+ feet of cabinets in the kitchen. Measuring the slope of the ceiling I got 1/8 down slope to the right.
Measuring the slope of the floor it is just about the same up slope to the right.

I have a helper on the project with a construction background. His contention was that the cabinets need to be installed level. My contention was they need to be parallel to the ceiling. Mounting level would have over a 2" difference in the spacing below the ceiling from one end to the other.

Looking at the cabinets they look level because the eye compares them to the ceiling (which our brain believes is level because nobody would do a slope to the ceiling).

How would you handle this?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Thanks a lot Glenn.

I am not biting.

[Tom Ewell]

Lines of sight are very important to what looks right as opposed to level and plumb. Level and plumb as close as best you can get without horribly obvious visual keys, hide the defect with imagination, a 1/4" scribe is not as noticeable as a 2" drop a foot from the ceiling.

Sometimes you can get away with spliting the difference if the visual lines are are not too tight. 1" up 1"down from level but that's still a pretty big chunk not to notice.

Tall cabinets with crown to the ceiling or old style soffit above cabinets pretty much dictates parallel to the ceiling, turning corners need to be accounted for as well as full height pantry cabinets with all wall tops aligned, which then sets your base bottom alignments.

Cabinets around windows add to the fun, too.

What looks good to your eye in your kitchen is what needs to be done.

The wife might not appreciate things too much out of level though, those rolling pins in motion can be a pain on bare toes.


good luck.

[glenn bradley]

Often in houses, a picture that is dead on level will look incorrect due to the poor lines of the walls or ceiling. In that case I would go for what looks right. In your cabinets, you want level as the items sitting in the cabinet are going to try to achieve a relationship with gravity that you cannot alter. Your trim can hide the slope.

[Caspar Hauser]

It's a kitchen, install them level, side to side, front to back, uppers parallel to the lowers.

Cans and bottles, cups and saucers falling to their death, doors 'falling' open or 'slamming' closed, rolling eggs, spilt milk racing along the counter top, a permanent puddle in one end of the sink, cups of coffee or god forbid, martini's sliding out of reach...:eek:

This is of course assuming that the primary function of the kitchen is to keep your food off the floor and out of the dog.

You are lucky that it's only 2" out.

[Jason Roehl]

Level all the way.

After all, what if the kitchen had a cathedral ceiling? You wouldn't still install the cabinets parallel to the ceiling, would you? :eek: ;)

One way to help hide out of level/plumb/square wall lines is to not tie the cabinets (or other fixtures) too closely to the problem if possible. For instance, don't mount one end of a run of cabinets tight to the ceiling and the other end down an inch or two. If the whole run is down an inch or two on the "tight" end, then the taper in the gap is less noticeable.

[Lee Schierer]

I would install them level. If you don't like the look, then fix the ceiling and the floor. Two wrongs never make a right. Do it right.

[Navin Rao]

The "poor" attention to detail in our townhouse means the ceilings and walls have very poor lines. However, the cabinets in the kitchen were all installed level (visually, it drives me insane). Last year, our neighbors redid their cabinets and had them installed in a more visually pleasing manner. With the recent earthquakes in So Cal, they wish they had chosen level cabinets. Large cans of pineapple hurt when they roll out of visually pleasing cabinets and smack you in the head.

[Glenn Vaughn]

The "poor" attention to detail in our townhouse means the ceilings and walls have very poor lines. However, the cabinets in the kitchen were all installed level (visually, it drives me insane). Last year, our neighbors redid their cabinets and had them installed in a more visually pleasing manner. With the recent earthquakes in So Cal, they wish they had chosen level cabinets. Large cans of pineapple hurt when they roll out of visually pleasing cabinets and smack you in the head.

My experience with earthquakes when I lived in California was tah level did not matter - good catches on the doors helped.

We installed level front to back. The 1/8" per foot left to right was not enough for canned goods to roll without assistance - the wife insisted on extensive testing.

[Jeff Duncan]

Been away for a few days so missed the square thread....way too many replies for me to go there now.
As for level that's an easy one....cabinets need to be level. As someone who's been building and installing kitchens for years there is never a question of whether or not cabinets have to be level. And for the record I have yet to see any house, apartment, or other dwelling with perfectly level floors and ceiling. I'm currently installing custom doors in a 7 story high rise with poured concrete floors, where there's a 3/8" - 1/2" drop over 32" wide rough openings.
Trimwork needs to be installed to please the eye, that's it's function...aesthetic. Cabinets need to work properly, therefore they need to be installed straight, level, and plumb. To do otherwise is asking for trouble.
good luck,
Jeffd

[Mitchell Andrus]

I just tried to imagine a professional installer talking a judge into accepting an installation that wasn't level so he could win in court.

If "looks good enough" was the standard..... Dumb conversation.

Hang them level, let the house be the only thing out of whack. If the ceiling is that far out, pull it down, shim the joists and re-hang sheet rock. One day and $125.00 later this problem is moot. While you're at it re-do the lighting.
.

[Gene Waara]

Sorry, I have to go against popular opinion. When I installed our pre-made cabinets a few years ago I went (almost) level to the ceiling. LOML wanted our drops removed and the cabinets to have various heights, not to the ceiling, with a crown moulding. I knew if I went level the growing gap difference to the ceiling over the 19 feet would drive my nuts. I split the difference to the level floor cabinets as the ceramic tile on the backsplash also had to look correct. Keep the backsplash in mind as you make your decision.

[Isaac Juodvalkis]

In this instance (custom cabinets) would it have been better to build the cabinets to fit the space? measure how for out of level the tops of the cabinets need to be and build that into the project. in other words make the sides plum and the bottoms level, with the tops matching the slope of the ceiling. Or is this a bad idea? it seams that that way you would get the best of both worlds. Sure there it is harder to build the tops of the doors out of square but isn't that what custom is about.
All the cabinets in my house have sagged with the house and are nowhere near level or plum, granted that they are over 100 years old.

[Chris Padilla]

The world is round...not flat...nothing is really level. ;)

[Chris Friesen]

The countertop needs to be level, but the uppers could be slightly off if it makes it look better.

Not running the uppers all the way to the ceiling will make any out-of-level less obvious.

[Jim Becker]

Counters need to be level. Therefore, the base cabinets need to be level. Further, uppers need to be parallel to the base cabinets to be both level and not look funky. It's the nature of some homes... especially older ones...to have sloping like this, including opposite directions top and bottom. My kitchen was exactly like what you describe...and with a low 6'10" ceiling thrown in.

My preference is for separate toe-kicks to make leveling base units easier in this kind of situation, although I also use them for "level and plumb" rooms, too. Build the rough platform with construction lumber and then scribe a 1/2" or 1/4" face for it to match the floor slope. For the uppers, assuming you are building the cabinets, the bottoms of the cabinets should be level and parallel to the counter top. With a lot of slope, you can build each subsequent carcass to whatever height works and then use an appropriately styled molding to close the gap at the ceiling. Again, this was exactly the case with my own kitchen and it worked out wonderfully.

http://sawsndust.com/images/kitchen-remodel/kr-tile-2-280.jpg

[Brian Cover]

In this instance (custom cabinets) would it have been better to build the cabinets to fit the space? measure how for out of level the tops of the cabinets need to be and build that into the project. in other words make the sides plum and the bottoms level, with the tops matching the slope of the ceiling. Or is this a bad idea? .....

That is the correct solution.

[Steve Griffin]

That is the correct solution.

HAh--it's interesting to see how many different approaches to this problem there are. :D

The human eye can detect out of square even more than out of level, and sloping top face frames or doors could be seen a mile away.

I'd put them in level, and use every trick in the book to trim them out as best as can be done. This would include keeping them as far from the ceiling as possible, and using several pieces of trim./crown molding.

-Steve