Informative source for info about Japanese Chisels

[Jonathan McCullough]

Wilbur Pan's been whittling away at the electrons with an interesting post (http://giantcypress.net/post/931326880/hatful-of-hollow)about the hollow backs on Japanese chisels and plane irons. I've wondered about what happens when you reach the edge of the hollow grind. Wonder no more!

Something that also comes up when considering Japanese chisels is the difference between white steel and blue steel, which he addressed earlier here. (http://giantcypress.net/post/609709105/one-steel-two-steel-white-steel-blue-steel)

[Sam Takeuchi]

When it comes to edge steel, the range of steel available for Japanese chisels and plane iron are massive, covering from white steel (pure HCS) to powdered HSS, and everything in between. They often have variations of the same steel (like Blue steel #1, Blue steel #2, Blue steel Super etc, with different characteristics) as well. I envy them.

In Japanese, there are plenty of websites showing how to do "uradashi", the method of creating flat near the cutting edge, but I suppose pictorial is scarce in other language. Try this page (http://www2.wbs.ne.jp/~nekojara/Q&A/woocraft/kanna/kannna-togi-hanotogi.htm) and run it through Google translator for the whole page. There's no way I'm translating the entire page, but even pictures alone kind of explain how to go about creating flat behind edge.

[Christian Castillo]

Uradashi is only necessary for plane blades (to not loosen the precise fit of the blade into the blade holding chutes on the plane body), although it is done on large chisels ( larger than 1") as well. On a chisel, normally, one would just lap the back of the chisel until new land appears. The process of uradashi is done with a hammer and anvil of some sort. One would hit the soft steel layer in a pretty even pattern of dents in order to cause the hard steel layer to bend, then that part that has bent is lapped off and you have new land once more.

[Sam Takeuchi]

Yes, chisels are easy to maintain. Uradashi is one of the reasons I made a transition to non-Japanese planes. I like tools, especially planes, but my focus is making something, not tool maintenance. I couldn't be bothered to do it anymore. A couple of times in my earlier days I had one or two errant taps from my hammer that created 1/8" chip on the edge, too. That took major metal removal and half a day to fix. I still consider going back to Japanese tools every now and then (unfortunately I didn't bring them to Russia, and they are sitting at my parents' place in Japan), but I guess at least not until I go back there for a visit to pick them up. I still have and use Japanese chisels however.

I believe Wilbur's blog posts explain things that are often misunderstood or wrongly assumed. I think these are the best explanation anyone can give regarding Japanese chisels and plane irons. I hope anyone who is interested in Japanese tools get to learn a bit, because each steel type has its place and use and that's the choice buyer will have to face. Like anything else, no single steel is universally suitable for everything. Right steel for the right job. Or else people will start thinking these are only good for softwood :D

Attached picture shows perfectly used Japanese plane iron (for 30 years). With good uradashi skill, that's how much these things can be used for without losing good fit. Courtesy of Tsunesaburo.

P.S. I do know that my idea about tool and steel choice is opposite from Wilbur's. But I agree with that the makers' skill is paramount to the end products' quality.

[David Weaver]

Wow...assuming that iron was sharpened properly and not ground away from abusive work, it would take an incredible amount of work and honing to come up with that much wear.

The good news for hobbyists is that if you take care of a new plane, and have several, and don't use woods that are abusive to the edge, it could be several years before you even need to worry about uridashi.

[Sam Takeuchi]

According to their caption, this blade belonged to a carpenter in Western Japan who bought this plane from the first Tsunesaburo 30 years ago. He came back to them and told them he wanted to buy replacement. He bought the same plane. It must be a wonderful feeling for any blacksmith to see their line of product so well taken care of and used so perfectly. Who knows, maybe he'd come back in another 30 years :)

[Wilbur Pan]

Hi Sam and Jonathan,

Thanks for the very nice comments! I really appreciate it. The blog is turning out to be much more fun than I thought it would be.


P.S. I do know that my idea about tool and steel choice is opposite from Wilbur's. But I agree with that the makers' skill is paramount to the end products' quality.

Sam, just out of curiosity, how do your ideas of steel and tool choice differ from mine? I certainly don't think I have anywhere near the last word on this subject.

[Sam Takeuchi]

For me, I take tool steel as a major factor in choosing a tool, because, like I mentioned above, my idea is "right steel for the right job (task and material)". I deal with beautiful, yet soft spruce. I also deal with blade obliterating silica loaded demon of a rosewood, or simply really abrasive hard West African ebony. Before I made transition to non-Japanese tools, I had 3 basic blade steels I used: White steel #1, Blue steel #1 and HSS (SKH51/M2). HSS blades were for general dimensioning and material removal on those hard and rather evil wood (rosewood, ebony, coco, and so on). Blue #1s (I had two smoothers) was for smoothing those, plus dimensioning and material removal on softwood. White #1 was for smoothing softwood. My choice has to do with balance between edge durability and ease of sharpening, also in my opinion, certain wood seems to respond very well to a certain steel. I don't know if it's true, but it felt right.

Now I'm using non Japanese tools, even then, I'm still pretty much on the same schedule. I use M2 blade for hogging and material removal. A2 for smoothing hardwood, also dimensioning/material removal of softwood. Finally softwood is smoothed with a couple of Record and Stanley planes with Blue steel #1 blades on them.

While I agree that the makers' skill is probably the #1 priority when it comes to the quality of end products, it was a lot easier to assess this criteria for me. I had access to a number of Japanese carpentry shops with large number of planes/chisels I can pick and feel, sometimes even try if they have something to try, and talk to very thoroughly knowledgeable shop owners, and finally knowing woodworkers and carpenters who use those tools made a lot of things clearer. So for me, I guess I had a lot more opportunity to learn about those makers even before I picked up the tool. Even though there were difference in quality, overall, I never come across Blue or White steel blade that are disappointing. That may not be true if you choose shoddily made cheap tool that are supposed to have White or Blue steel though.

Often times, even the makers themselves suggest different steels for different materials. I think they simply realize that tool steels have their limit and won't be the best performer in a realistic sense for all types of wood (like needing to touch up after 5 shavings is hardly the best performer or balanced). So I'd say choose the steel carefully, especially if it's something that costs hundreds of dollars :)

[Stanley Covington]

Good thread.

Uradashi (some call it uraoshi) works for chisels too, especially the wide ones. Grinding down by hand the entire ura (hollowground back) of a chisel can take a lot of work, wastes a lot of metal, and will make the chisel more time consuming to sharpen. As was noted, you gotta be real careful or you will take a big chip out of your blade or crack it. Everyone does this once or twice.

The Giant Cypress page linked to above shows a step being formed when the ura is ground. He exaggerates a bit of course, but it happens. You can reduce this two ways. First, try to keep the force pressing down on the blade while sharpening focused more on the cutting edge. Second (and this is what professional sharpeners in Japan do) apply a bit of stainless steel tape (aluminum tape works well too) to the blade just where it will contact the outside edge of the sharpening stone when working on the hollow. David Charlesworth does something similar with his steel ruler.

Steel is always a thorny issue. I have had many chisels and planes custom made in Japan (where I live now). Currently, I am having 28 carving chisels custom made. IMO shirogami #1 (white steel) is the best material for chisels and planes. But, it is more difficult to temper, and so Aogami (blue paper) often provides more consistent quality, especially with tools like carving chisels with more complicated and thinner cross sections.

The best cutting chisels I have were made for me 18 years ago by a Tokyo smith named Shimamura (currently ringing the big anvil in the sky) using the trademark "Kiyotada" which belongs to the Suiheiya tool store here in Tokyo. In fact, Suiheya still uses the trademark, but the product from the smith using the trademark nowadays (located in Niigata) is very unimpressive.

Shirogami steel is not that easy to obtain nowadays, the smiths tell me. And the fact is that most people can't tell the difference between white and blue steel.

I recently purchased a set of ten (kumi) butt chisels here in Tokyo for my son. $800. I'm using them today, as a matter of fact, since he asked me to get them in shape for him. I was told that they are white paper #1 when I purchased them, but I soon determined that the hardness is softer than what my Kiyotada chisels are, and I was not impressed. I went back to tool store and asked them WTF. They said that the trend among chisel smiths nowadays was to keep the blade hardness softer than was common even ten years ago since the market has shifted to amateurs that don't know how to use or maintain them properly, and the softer steel resulted in fewer complaints. I suspect the real reason is that by aiming for a softer edge, the smith has fewer cracked, failed blades during heat treatment. I was dissapointed.

I do intend to take a trip to Miki to see if I can find a better option.

In any case, while I prefer White paper steel, Blue paper steel makes a fine blade. Outside of China (and I have a lot of firsthand hard-earned and expensive knowledge about Chinese steel), it is not common to find bad steel. The skill and QC efforts of smith/manufacturer is the key point in modern times.

[Stuart Tierney]

Good thread.

I do intend to take a trip to Miki to see if I can find a better option.




If/when you do, I'll see if I can't dig up a few names/places to try. You will need directions and either real good in car navigation or a guide.

Miki is a rabbit warren...

(We got lost before we even got in there, took the wrong off ramp. :o )


I must say that the Miki trade hall (for wont of a better term) is impressive if you have no interest in Japanese tools at all. Same goes for the Takenaka museum. The museum is interesting even if you don't know which end of the chisel to hit. :eek:

(And bring a drool bucket if you are interested in Japanese tools. Both places are like being dumped in the middle of a million dollars worth of tools. That figure would be on the very low side of 'conservative'.)

[Stanley Covington]

If/when you do, I'll see if I can't dig up a few names/places to try. :eek:

Thanks, Stuart.

Hope you are enjoying the warm weather.

Stan

[Wilbur Pan]

I deal with beautiful, yet soft spruce. I also deal with blade obliterating silica loaded demon of a rosewood, or simply really abrasive hard West African ebony.
So that may be the factor in our different takes on the steels used in Japanese tools. I haven't used that same variety of wood so far in my woodworking. My experience ranges across North American species for the most part: pine, poplar, cherry, maple, white oak. Definitely a range of hardnesses and workability, but nothing like going from spruce to ebony.

FWIW, the Imai white steel chisels that I like seemed to do pretty well against cocobolo and white oak (http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=83526).

[David Weaver]

Stanley - the statement about hardness, I agree, and I'd like to see the harder chisels more available.

I'm glad to see that substantiated, since I don't frequent japanese tool forums, but have a bunch of japanese tools.

A few years ago, I tested a few chisels I had laying around because I had access to a hardness tester (or a friend did, and was willing to test the chisels for me). I had one chisel in particular that wouldn't hold an edge, and was curious about whether it was an alloy/quality issue or a hardness issue (turned out to be hardness).

Anyway, one of the chisels we tested was an Iyoroi mortise chisel. The average of the three pings was 62 or just under 62 for that chisel. I was disappointed to find that out, even though it wasn't my chisel. I suspect from using it that most of the japanese chisels I have are about that hardness, and the iyoroi mokume set that I bought may be even a bit softer (i haven't had a chance to use them in cocobolo, where the difference between a 60 hardness chisel and a 64/65 hardness chisel really shows up).

I think of all of the chisels that I've tried, only two probably approach their claims of hardness - a set of miyanaga mortise chisels and some koyamaichi dovetail chisels from LV.

It really makes no practical difference since the stones are 2 feet away, but I still find it annoying that they aren't all of that hardness, even though all of their advertising literature says they're of that hardness. It's a matter of getting what you think you're getting more than a matter of need for better than what you got in the end.

Lest anyone worry that the ones I'm speaking of being in the low 60s range don't hold an edge well, we're not even remotely close to that being an issue. In hard stuff, they stay sharp several times longer than my vintage western chisels, just not as long as the ones that subjectively seem to meet their spec or be closer to it. I tested a chisel that was given to me by a retailer to look at and compared it to two of mine by driving them through a stick of hard maple about 3/4" square - 75 times each, chopping off about 1mm each time, firm strikes such that 3 to 5 strikes drove the chisel neatly through the stick. Every single chisel finished that task still able to separate hair from my arm - though not nearly as easily is they did prior to the test. A buck brothers chisel that I honed to the same angle (27 degrees) had edge damage that would send me back to the medium stone after 20 something strikes through. I'd imagine a newer high-quality chisel like a barr could've finished the test without issue and be brought back to sharpness only on the finishing stone, but if they are as hard as they say they are, they're harder than vintage chisels (never used a barr).

Also, I see that wiley mentioned seeing hardness in the same range for two of the three chisels he tested, which agrees with your experience and mine. Wish you could tell which ones were really the hard ones without having to go to japan to find out!

[Stuart Tierney]

Thanks, Stuart.

Hope you are enjoying the warm weather.

Stan

NO! I'm not!

Heat, I can deal with. Humidity is the trouble, and it's nasty here in Kagawa. I also have a touch of a lung infection that is sucking away my will to live and what makes it all that much worse is that I am bashing this in from a new (to me) computer that I got to make my time more purposeful, but I haven't been able to use it yet and I also have a new car parked outside (really new) that I want to take for a good run, but every time I get in it, I want to fall asleep. Maybe it's the new car smell or something...

How's things in your neck of the woods? :confused:

[Stanley Covington]

Wish you could tell which ones were really the hard ones without having to go to japan to find out!
David

I didn't test my son's new chisels with a Rockwell tester, but observed the difference over a few months on weekends and evenings using them side by side with my Kiyotada chisels in the same wood (tamo, Japanese ash, is what I am using lately) cutting smallish mortise and tenon joints. One would normally expect new chisels to have brittle edges which mellow out after a few sharpenings, so I would not have complained if the blades had chipped at first. Sadly, the edges on my son's chisels dulled quicker than what I had expected and developed a rolled edge. Ergo the complaint to the tool shop in Sangenjaya where I purchased them, and that I have frequented over the last 25 years. Noboru reminded me that he had warned me at the time of purchase that they were not as good as a Kiyotada product, but that they were among the best available nowadays.

Don't get me wrong, they are fine chisels and function very well. But Kiyotada's chisels put every other chisel I have ever used to shame, and that includes the expensive chisels such as the beauties made by Ichihiro and the over-hyped variety from Miki such as Iyoroi. So my son will be getting a set of very good chisels for Christmas. He will have to wait until I die to have an excellent set.

If you want to hear an interesting story about over-hyped Japanese chisels sold in the US, send a PM.:rolleyes:

[Stanley Covington]

NO! I'm not!

Heat, I can deal with. Humidity is the trouble, and it's nasty here in Kagawa. I also have a touch of a lung infection that is sucking away my will to live and what makes it all that much worse is that I am bashing this in from a new (to me) computer that I got to make my time more purposeful, but I haven't been able to use it yet and I also have a new car parked outside (really new) that I want to take for a good run, but every time I get in it, I want to fall asleep. Maybe it's the new car smell or something...

How's things in your neck of the woods? :confused:

Stuart:

Sorry to hear about your illness. At least Kagawa is cleaner than Manila or Bangkok, so the infection hopefully won't develop into full-blown jungle rot.

Tokyo may be a little cooler now than Kagawa. Still, the humidity as you noted, is stifling. The rainy season here was quite dry, relatively speaking, and despite that fact that most other areas of the country flooded.

Hope you recover soon and can enjoy your new car. I don't own one here: to expensive to park in Tokyo, the roads are packed, and the liability, if you analyze it, is horrendous.

Stan