VL-300 Cutting Table Problem

[Marianne Oteiza]

Hi All,

First, let me say that SMC is now my new best friend. I have been lingering in the background for a couple of months and have gleaned so much info. Thanks to all of you!

We bought a Versalaser VL300 in 2006 for our scrapbook store. Primarily for die-cuts for our customers. And a few frames on occasion. Long story short, the business is gone and I have moved the laser to my home. The set-up is virtually identical to the store set-up except that it no longer exhausts through the ceiling. The laser is in sitting room, the blower is by the sliding glass doors and I fling the vent hose out onto the patio when needed.

PROBLEM: I no longer have any downdraft when using the honeycomb table. None whatsoever. Why?? Other than no downdraft, the unit works perfectly. This has been an issue for 18 months. I have spoken to Universal, Laserbits, and Engraving Systems Support with no luck. Any idea as to what has happened or how to fix it? (Please..I've checked and cleaned the plenum!)

Using a Penn State DC-3XL 1.5 hp blower.

Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions.

[Dan Hintz]

Are you getting a good flow of air out of the DC?

Are you getting good suction right at the tube's connection to the laser (remove it and place your hand over the tube's opening)?

Is the vector table clean of all debris?

Do you have a good seal between the vector table and the back of the machine where it connects to the tube?

[Lee DeRaud]

Pull the hose of the DC inlet: I suspect some debris got lodged there. You apparently still have enough airflow to pull the smoke off the top of your material, but not enough to get flow through the vector table.

[Marianne Oteiza]

Hi Guys -

Dan -

Good airflow - yes (best way to blow the cat hair out from behind the sofa :))
Good Suction - yes (to the point of almost sucking the plenum plate against the back of the unit)
Table clean - yes (filters spotless)
Good seal - yes
Lee -

No debris; smoke evacuates fine, just no downdraft to keep paper from floating.

This problem seems to have everyone stumped. I mean, this is big box with a table full of holes and one evacuation point centered at the lowest point of the rear wall. I don't know what else to check!

Thanks for trying. If you or anyone else thinks of something more..I'm all ears!

[Joe De Medeiros]

Are you using a longer hose by any chance, than what you were using at the store. If the hose is too long you reduce your total effective CFM. with a 1.5 hp fan it states 850cfm, and Max Static Pressure (inches): 8.5. try making the hose shorter, and as straight as possible.

[Marianne Oteiza]

Joe,

When we first set it up in the house, we used the exact same hose (actually rigid tubing) that was in the store...all 40 feet of it, straight out the back of the laser (well, except for 2 turns to get the tubing down to floor level)... nothing! Shortened it to +/- 6 feet...nothing! Started adding back 4-foot lengths til we were back to 30 feet..nothing!

In the beginning, we used a Grainger 1 hp blower (same one we used in the store). A lot of piece-meal to accommodate the tubing, so we bought the Penn State 1.5 hp. which came with 20 feet of clear tubing. Still straight line from laser to blower with only 1 turn down from the laser. Nothing!

All technical support I have spoken with affirms that no harm will be done to the laser, but...why did it work fine for 2+ yrs and then quit?

It's beyond me.

[Mike Mackenzie]

Marrianne,

If this is a different blower then make sure that the rotation of the propeller blade is correct. With some blowers they can run in both directions and you might have to reverse the wires on the motor.

Just a guess but something to look at because if there are no obstructions then you should get the downdraft.

[Dan Hintz]

This just doesn't make sense... the DC is the same, the tube length has been chopped down to 20% of the original (and working) length, and there is great suction from the tube right at the machine... you're missing some obstruction within the machine itself.

[Rob Patterson]

In the beginning, we used a Grainger 1 hp blower (same one we used in the store). A lot of piece-meal to accommodate the tubing, so we bought the Penn State 1.5 hp. which came with 20 feet of clear tubing. Still straight line from laser to blower with only 1 turn down from the laser. Nothing!

So, I am confused. Did the set up at the house work with the Granger blower and not work with the Penn State DC?

Which unit did you use in the store?

[Marianne Oteiza]

Rob & Mike - We used the Grainger unit at the store, fantastic downdraft. Moved it to the house...no downdraft. Replaced it with the Penn State to reduce the number of reducers required and because the Penn State is on wheels. Still no downdraft. I've only had the Penn State a few months.

Mike - I will have my son check this out when he gets back from China (I don't do electrical)

Dan - You're right..it makes no sense! As far as obstructions, I don't know where else to look. Without either the vector table or the honeycomb table installed, I have run the lift table to the highest point and there is absolutely nothing there (you could eat off it). I've removed the plenum cover to expose the exhaust portal..clean as a whistle. Removed the 12" scat tubing at the back..nothing there. Where else can I look (aside from taking the entire machine apart)?

I guess I little alternative but to load the thing in my SUV and haul it up to Engraving Systems Support (300 miles upstate) and let them have a go at it - even tho' they are as baffled as everyone else.

But, just like taking your car to the shop for some weird noise, you can bet that when I get there, it'll work just fine. (ESS makes house calls, but I can' afford it.)

Thanks for trying, Guys. I greatly appreciate your efforts.

[Rob Patterson]

Take the intake hose off and carefully turn on the dust collector then back off. As it slows down, note which direction the impeller is turning. Is it turning in the right direction?

What size hose (diameter and lengths) are you using on both the intake and exhaust side of the dust collector?

Another thought would be insufficient electrical input to the collector causing the motor to run at a lower speed. Does the DC plug directly into the wall? Does the motor seem to run at speed?

[Joe De Medeiros]

Rob & Mike - We used the Grainger unit at the store, fantastic downdraft. Moved it to the house...no downdraft. Replaced it with the Penn State to reduce the number of reducers required and because the Penn State is on wheels. Still no downdraft. I've only had the Penn State a few months.

Mike - I will have my son check this out when he gets back from China (I don't do electrical)

Dan - You're right..it makes no sense! As far as obstructions, I don't know where else to look. Without either the vector table or the honeycomb table installed, I have run the lift table to the highest point and there is absolutely nothing there (you could eat off it). I've removed the plenum cover to expose the exhaust portal..clean as a whistle. Removed the 12" scat tubing at the back..nothing there. Where else can I look (aside from taking the entire machine apart)?

I guess I little alternative but to load the thing in my SUV and haul it up to Engraving Systems Support (300 miles upstate) and let them have a go at it - even tho' they are as baffled as everyone else.

But, just like taking your car to the shop for some weird noise, you can bet that when I get there, it'll work just fine. (ESS makes house calls, but I can' afford it.)

Thanks for trying, Guys. I greatly appreciate your efforts.

Can you post a picture of the setup ?
My other thought is the room where the machine is sitting is not getting enough makeup air, if there is a window in the room try opening it. I don't think it's the machine but something simple in your setup.

[Dan Hintz]

This isn't an electrical issue. It's also not an impeller direction issue. It's not an obstruction issue with the DC or hose. All of these are easily removed as issues by placing your hand against the air hose intake right at the laser (disconnect form laser, obviously)... if it's trying to suck your hand in with any force, the problem resides somewhere in the laser.

With everything hooked up but the table removed, do you feel plenty of suction at the plenum/vector table interface? Does it try to suck your hand in? If it can barely flutter a piece of paper, you've found the point of issue.

[Marianne Oteiza]

Rob - 1)Removed hose, impeller spins clockwise. I don't know if that's the right way or not. 2) 3" port on laser to 4" hose to 4" port on blower. 3) Blower plugs in to wall. Seems to run OK.

Joe - 1) I will try to attach a couple of pix. 2) I opened the windows near the laser..no affect. My house a relatively open floor plan. Meaning that the kitchen, breakfast area, sitting room, family room and living room (while in a U shape) have no interior dividing walls.

Dan - 1) Putting my hand against the air intake results the same as putting you hand against a vacuum cleaner hose. Both intake and exhaust hoses contract. 2) To clarify: with everything hooked up, no table, and the plenum cover in place, the only draft of air is the slot at the top of the plenum cover. No air can be felt drafting through the two large holes in the bottom of the lift table. Paper is held firmly against the slot in the plenum cover. Remove the plenum cover and my hand is sucked hard enough to leave a ring on my hand if held there long enough. Paper would be sucked completely through and into the blower.

While we haven't solved the problem yet, you guys have asked more questions and offered more suggestions than any of the "technical" pros. Thanks!

[Lee DeRaud]

Assuming those are 12" floor tiles, it looks like at least 15' (maybe closer to 20') of hose from the laser to the DC, then another 10'+ from the DC to get out the door.

That's a LOT of 4" hose, like maybe double what you want to see on that size blower. (The straight pipe you were using before is much more efficient. And it sounds like it may have been larger diameter.) Even if it can handle that length, I don't know how well it likes having that much flow restriction on the output side.

[Dan Hintz]

Okay,

The 3" port is pretty restrictive to begin with. 4" is better, but even 4" pipe is best kept to short runs, and as Lee said, that's a looooong run of 4".

Run a 4-6 foot section of pipe from the laser to the DC... do not connect any pipe to the output of the DC. Turn it on and see if you get any vacuum from the table. I'm willing to bet you do...

[Lee DeRaud]

To clarify: with everything hooked up, no table, and the plenum cover in place, the only draft of air is the slot at the top of the plenum cover. No air can be felt drafting through the two large holes in the bottom of the lift table. Paper is held firmly against the slot in the plenum cover.

Ok, I just went up and looked at my VL200 and realized what didn't sound right about that whole scenario: what you just described is perfectly normal.

Those two large holes in the bottom of the lift table? Ignore them. I have no idea what they're for, except may be to reduce weight and allow you to clean out the cruft that accumulates in the bottom of the cabinet.

1. The only airflow connection between the blower inlet on the back of the machine and the interior of the cabinet is that slot roughly in the center of the plenum cover. I repeat: all the air/smoke/whatever is sucked through that slot.

2. There are no holes in the bottom surface of the cutting table. None. All the airflow through the cutting table comes out the back edge of the cutting table. Some of the airflow comes through a narrow slot in the subplenum above the cutting table's surface, the rest comes through the honeycomb itself.

3. The subplenum at the back of the cutting table lines up with the slot in the cabinet plenum cover only when the table is within 7/8" of the the top of its travel (assuming the standard 2" lens).

4. When the table is below that point, there is no airflow through the cutting table, because the slot in the cabinet plenum cover is completely above the cutting table. This can happen when you're cutting something more than 7/8" thick (a bit unlikely with a 25W-30W machine) or using a longer-focal-length lens...or when the laser is powered up after a reboot: it rehomes the Z-axis and drops the table all the way to the bottom.

So if you boot up the computer, power up the laser, turn on the blower, and drop a piece of paper on the cutting table...

[Joe De Medeiros]

Okay,

The 3" port is pretty restrictive to begin with. 4" is better, but even 4" pipe is best kept to short runs, and as Lee said, that's a looooong run of 4".

Run a 4-6 foot section of pipe from the laser to the DC... do not connect any pipe to the output of the DC. Turn it on and see if you get any vacuum from the table. I'm willing to bet you do...

I think we are all in agreement that it's way 2 long, you are probably only getting 100 to 200 cfm effective output, you are better off just running it out the window near the laser, or moving the laser closer to the door and running a long network cable to it.

[Marianne Oteiza]

OK - Reconfiguring set-up (after I finish a couple of items for a Boy Scout troop's 75th anniversary). Will post pix when done.:rolleyes:

[Marianne Oteiza]

OK -

1) Shortened hose to DC to 4-6 ft. 2) Removed exhaust hose from DC 3) Installed honeycomb table, added sheet of copy paper, allowed laser to adjust table to appropriate position......Results.....no change!:( I even tried manually adjusting the table with no change.

Still no downdraft..Pic of paper (sorry, el cheapo camera doesn't do close-ups well) has both laser and DC operative. Notice that corner of paper has no contact with table (no downdraft thru honeycomb). Corner of paper is merely rolled, not creased.

BTW, with this new setup, when I flipped on the DC you could hear the plenum cover (is that the subplenum?) slap against the back of the machine. Actually, I guess it's the stops on the back of the cover that did it.

If next suggestion is to replace flex tubing with rigid tubing to DC, I will have to go buy some 4" tubing. The tubing we used in the store was 3" rigid. From laser to DC was 12 ft upward to pass drop ceiling, then 32 ft across ceiling to DC. DC was vented thru roof via a pre-existing vent.

Good news: I don't have to vacuum this part of the house, DC blew it all into the garage.:D

Well, process of elimination continues. Thanks again, Guys.

[Dan Hintz]

Rigid will show little to no difference compared to the short run we're working with now.

A side note... any parts of the table not being used to hold the substrate should be covered. If you don't, you're losing your suction ability from that huge gap.

Are you sure you've removed the plate that covers the exhaust hole when the vector table is not being used?

I bet this could be solved in 5 minutes if one of us was there in person, but if this doesn't track down the issue I'm out of ideas.

[Lee DeRaud]

Are you sure you've removed the plate that covers the exhaust hole when the vector table is not being used?There's no such thing on a VL-series.

[Lee DeRaud]

Pic of paper (sorry, el cheapo camera doesn't do close-ups well) has both laser and DC operative. Notice that corner of paper has no contact with table (no downdraft thru honeycomb). Corner of paper is merely rolled, not creased.One thing to try, since you're just cutting paper: tape over the slot in the cutting table, the one visible just above the paper in that picture. That will force all the airflow to go through the honeycomb.


BTW, with this new setup, when I flipped on the DC you could hear the plenum cover (is that the subplenum?) slap against the back of the machine. Actually, I guess it's the stops on the back of the cover that did it.Huh?!? That shouldn't happen. Is the cover plate actually deflecting? If it is, it can drop back and cover the air outlet hole, resulting in greatly reduced airflow. (That plenum chamber is only about 1/2" deep.)

The cover plate on mine has a rolled edge and is quite stiff. I guess, worst case, you might have to add some spacers near the hole to keep the cover out where it should be.
[EDIT]Actually in your earlier picture it looks like there are already some spacers at the top edge of the plate (where it really doesn't need them)...are there any at the bottom?
I almost hesitate to ask this, but is it possible the cover plate is installed upside-down? That would screw up the alignment between the plenum slot and the back of the vector table. (The one on mine can't be installed upside-down, but it looks like there are some small differences between your machine and my early-2005 VL200, e.g. I don't have (or need) those spacers.)

[Marianne Oteiza]

Dan - 1) Covering the unused areas is something I normally do. Worked at the store, doesn't work at home. 2) AS Lee noted, no cover plate on VL. 3) I wish someone were close by!

Lee - 1) The techs at Engraving Systems Support had me do just that, tape it, I mean. Did phase it. 2) Yes, the plenum plate actually deflects. There are 2 metal stops on the back side, about 1/2" long. When the plate deflects I guess I'm hearing them hit the back of the machine. We added some additional small spacers, but had no affect.

I guess we're stuck at square 1. If you think of anything at anytime, let me know. I am most appreciative of everyone's efforts in this problem.

Thanks for everything..Creekers are the best!;)

[Lee DeRaud]

Yes, the plenum plate actually deflects. There are 2 metal stops on the back side, about 1/2" long.If you mean the two that show in your earlier picture, it looks like they're up at the top edge of the cover plate...where are they vertically on the plate?

If they really are up at the top, they don't do anything useful: the plenum actually starts about 3" down, below that horizontal rail. They should be down next to the inlet hole, where the suction is.

[Marianne Oteiza]

Lee - Yes, those are the ones. And yes, they are at the top just below the slot When we set the system up at the store we had 2 additional spacers taped at the very bottom on either side of the inlet hole. Kept the cover from deflecting more than 1/16th of an inch. They were still there when we moved the laser to the house. We removed them just to see if they were part of the no downdraft problem...they weren't. I still have them and can put them back.

I'm not doing much paper since we closed the scrapbook store. Mostly frames and tiles. I have the rotary attachment also and do some glassware on occasion.

I really appreciate your time and efforts in trying to solve this problem. Thanks again, and again, and again!

[Mike Mackenzie]

Marianne,

Try putting a 12x24 piece of material maybe thin cardboard whatever you use cover the entire cutting table see if you get the downdraft.

[Marianne Oteiza]

(Second reply..don't know where the first one went)

Mike - Whoa..that worked...sort of.:eek:

First I placed 2 +/- 12x12 pieces of chipboard (cardboard) @ .044" over the table. Raised the table, voila, suction! Then I tried same with cardstock @ 0.11" with the same result.

But when I moved the cardstock an inch or so to expose the table...oops..no downdraft. You could see the corner of the cardstock actually lift from the table.

Looks like you're on to something, but what does it mean?

Thanks for burning the midnight oil!:)

[Scott Shepherd]

The downdraft table isn't a "magnet" so to speak. If you place a small object on it, it's not going to suck it down on the table. You have to block off the open areas of the table to provide maximum suction on the pieces. If you don't, you'll just have open areas that draw air though the front and aid in extracting smoke fumes.