Is this tearout issue something to do with kiln drying? SEE PICTURE

[Nick Sorenson]

Here's a couple of pieces of an Alder board joined up. Notice the end grain, it's like the blade (40T Freud on a RAS) tore holes out of certain sections of the grain.

I've been reading about kiln drying and read that certain problems can actually show up inside the wood (vs. cracking, checks, splits etc that can be seen on the outside). Is this cut problem due to drying? It seems like there are soft parts of the wood inside the material.

http://www.rocketfireguitars.com/forums/other/DSC_0001.JPG


This problem also shows up after routing and sanding at times. Thanks in advance for any ideas on what could cause this.

[Lee Schierer]

It might be a function of any number of causes, such as a dull blade, wrong tooth count for smooth crosscuts or blade misalignment. The burn mark to the right side of the photo indicates your blade may not be aligned with your miter slot. Normally on a 10" saw, I like to use a 60+ tooth blades for finished crosscuts and 24 tooth blades for ripping. 40 tooth blades are generally combination blades and don't rip or cross cut as well as a dedicated blade will.

I don't work with alder so I can't address whether tear out can be caused by kiln drying.

[Nick Sorenson]

It might be a function of any number of causes, such as a dull blade, wrong tooth count for smooth crosscuts or blade misalignment. The burn mark to the right side of the photo indicates your blade may not be aligned with your miter slot. Normally on a 10" saw, I like to use a 60+ tooth blades for finished crosscuts and 24 tooth blades for ripping. 40 tooth blades are generally combination blades and don't rip or cross cut as well as a dedicated blade will.

I don't work with alder so I can't address whether tear out can be caused by kiln drying.

Thanks and great bird hunting action shot... Pheasant or Quail?

As far as the burning, it's probably pinching. I cut these 10' boards while holding one side up (no table extension). The saw is an 8" DeWalt MBF old school RAS with the Mr Sawdust Table and it's in very good alignment. I use the 40T blade because the Forrest 60T triple chip grind doesn't like ripping harder woods. I rip as much as I crosscut on this machine so the combination is a good compromise. The Forest WWI 60T rips Alder beautifully actually but I work with hard maple regularly and that's not happening with the Forrest crosscut blade.

[Glenn Kotnik]

Never used alder either. Have you used this wood in the past with better results? I've had wood like maple which was attacked by fungus and would do this.
Great dogs, Brittanys, I've got two, one is completely gun shy and hides under the truck, the other in a fantastic pheasant hunter, both are wonderfull house pets.

[glenn bradley]

IMHO a 40T blade is not optimal for crosscuts that you want a good finish on, with some exceptions. I get reasonable finishes on Walnut and other dense woods with a 40T but soft woods like alder would do better with a higher tooth-count blade. Any end grain I plan to "show" gets an 80T blade.

[Mike Wilkins]

Ditto what others have stated about the number of teeth for the blade. For smoother crosscuts, most recommend a high tooth count for cross cutting to eliminate this situation. I would recommend a 60 tooth minimum crosscut, with an 80 tooth even better.

[Frank Drew]

On either side of the tearouts the wood seems to have cut fairly smoothly, so if it's sharp I wouldn't blame your blade right away; the grain where the tearout occured might be interlocked or what's called ropey, which could lead to rough cutting.

I'd be a bit concerned with what appear to be a couple of incipient cross grain end checks, in the left side of the left board.

[Nick Sorenson]

IMHO a 40T blade is not optimal for crosscuts that you want a good finish on, with some exceptions. I get reasonable finishes on Walnut and other dense woods with a 40T but soft woods like alder would do better with a higher tooth-count blade. Any end grain I plan to "show" gets an 80T blade.

This is 100% true. This isn't going to show since these are blanks that will be cut and routed into guitar bodies. But the thing that concerns me is that I'm seeing similar things after routing and at times even after sanding. Some of this wood, no matter how much it gets sanded, this stuff keeps popping up. It's strange. I don't find this with Ash or Maple, just the Alder for some reason.


On either side of the tearouts the wood seems to have cut fairly smoothly, so I wouldn't blame your blade right away; the grain where the tearout occured might be interlocked or what's called ropey, which could lead to rough cutting.

I'd be a bit concerned with what appear to be a couple of incipient cross grain checks, in the left side of the left board.

The cross grain marks are pretty common in Alder. It seems like nearly every piece has this in it. Not sure what it is but Alder's got lots of it and a few other things that at times look like a crack or even a ding in the wood but turn out to just be part of the grain. Alder is interesting to work with... but it's great for taking a finish. Hard to beat it!

[Frank Drew]

Interesting; thanks for the clarification, Nick.

[Lee Schierer]

Thanks and great bird hunting action shot... Pheasant or Quail?

We were pheasant hunting on a private preserve with "planted" birds. My dog is 4 and has hunted three seasons so far and has pointed at least 130+ birds in that time for hunters.

He was trained on quail. He also points woodcock, grouse and snipe.

[Nick Sorenson]

We were pheasant hunting on a private preserve with "planted" birds. My dog is 4 and has hunted three seasons so far and has pointed at least 130+ birds in that time for hunters.

He was trained on quail. He also points woodcock, grouse and snipe.

Those are dogs you keep! Sounds like you have a great one.

I grew up hunting over a similar quality hunting dog except he was a Golden Retriever but man could he hunt. It was a sad day when we lost him. What a great pet and what a smart dog.

We took him on a couple trips to Iowa hunting the real birds... they go down a little harder than the pen birds. Iowa and S.D. birds, you have to Nail those things even with heavy loads or they just cackle at you and keep flying like you tossed a handful of pea gravel at them:D

Those are good hunting memories. I grew up hunting the planted birds too. Those things taste better than the real thing. Those Iowa birds are a little on the tough side. Still good eating though and of course LOTS of fun to hunt.

[Lee Schierer]

We took him on a couple trips to Iowa hunting the real birds... they go down a little harder than the pen birds. Iowa and S.D. birds, you have to Nail those things even with heavy loads or they just cackle at you and keep flying like you tossed a handful of pea gravel at them:D

We're taking him to SD this fall for a 3-4 day hunt on wild birds should be interesting.

[Prashun Patel]

+1 for increasing tooth count.

OT: have you had any cupping with that panel?

[Nick Sorenson]

+1 for increasing tooth count.

OT: have you had any cupping with that panel?

No I haven't noticed cupping with any of these so far. Probably be better to flip the grain on one of the boards so that the direction is opposite than what I have but it's even more important with this particular setup that the grain on the face of the body matches up really well. So far cupping hasn't been a problem.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

Something's weird here. Why's the glue still there after the cut?

[glenn bradley]

Curiosity question from someone who is not a luthier; where would one use alder in a guitar?

[Joe Hathcoat]

Alder is used for guitar bodies.

[Nick Sorenson]

Something's weird here. Why's the glue still there after the cut?

These are freshly jointed pieces edge glued. Thus the wet glue.

And to the other poster, yes Alder is commonly used as electric guitar body wood. Fender popularized this beginning in the late 50's. Probably used because it was easy to finish compared to open grained woods... and I'm sure it was cheap back then.

[Rob Lindquist]

I just made a whole kitchen with alder. I saw the same end grain tearout consitently throughout the project when rough cutting boards before milling them. Using a dedicated crosscut blade on the makita sliding miter saw eliminated it completely for the final cuts. But on most rails when routing the end grain would just pull out, with brand new sharp bits, even using several passes. It generally would pull wood out just before the end of the cut, not the end chipping out like you didn't use a sacrificial fence but rather a tuft of wood would just pull out of the end of the board. It was very frustrating at times.

The cross grain figuring in the wood is normal, and very strange sometimes.