Those Who Have done Wenzloff Tenon Saw Kits with ..

[David Weaver]

..london pattern handles, especially if you've made your own tote. I have the following questions.

* What did you use for tote wood
* how did you cut the mortise for the spine
* did you extend the mortise all the way back the full length of the saw plate (a significantly long mortise in a london pattern handle)?

I'm curious because I cut a macassar ebony tote, the large size, for a 16 inch tenon saw last weekend, and mortised for the spine (after cutting the sides of the mortise as far as could be cut with a ryoba), and I'm not pleased with the results. I haven't drilled holes and attached it yet because I had to make the mortise fairly loose so that it's not influencing the back of the saw when the tote is clamped on tight. It's also annoying that the huge cheeks of the london pattern handles impart a tiny bit of flex in the saw plate when I tighten a clamp onto them. I'm assuming it's little enough (can barely see it) that I can adjust the back to get it dialed in, but this is my first saw.

Since I don't have an original to look at, I can't really tell much, and I know there's a few people on here who have put together saw, including someone who has done a lot.

As undesirable as it was to cut a deep narrow mortise in the ebony, I think I'm going to pitch the tote and make one out of QS apple or maple.

I like the look of the spine the full length of the plate and would like to make it that way unless there's something wrong with that. It definitely makes cutting in a tidy long straight mortise a little more challenging, as does the fact that the brass back leans a tiny bit on the plate (which I'd assume is not uncommon?).

Just curious, and any advice is appreciated.

I like the london pattern on panel saws and bigger backsaws, and don't want to do a disston #4 style tote.

[Andrew Gibson]

I have four of Mikes saws, built from kits.
I used Hard maple for the handles.
I did not make London pattern handles so I think I am going to let the more knowledgeable members here answer as I don't have a real good answer for you.

Eventually I want to make new handles for my saws out of really nice walnut. I really like dark wood for saw handles, but I got a deal on the Maple I used I could not refuse.

[Zach England]

I just got two carcass saw kits today.

I have in my stash some tiger maple, birdseye maple, purpleheart, walnut, cherry and sapele. What do you think I should use for the handles? I was planning on tiger maple to go with my LN tenon saws, but yesterday I made a tote and knob out of purpleheart for my 606 and am very pleased with them, so I can't decide.

[Zach England]

Not sure if this thread is still alive, but I botched not one but TWO handles last night by screwing up the mortise for the spine. I am glad I was using some relatively cheap maple. Any tips?

I felt like spending some money this morning and ordered 1/4 and 1/8 mortise floats from LN. Should I hold off until I get those?

[David Weaver]

Can't think much about whether or not they're needed. If the wood is quartersawn, you might get some undesirable effects at the top of the mortise if you're not careful. Depends on how snug you want it to be.

I think it'd be easier to mark the mortise and then pare as needed once the mortise is started.

I didn't intend to have to think this much about cutting a simple mortise, but I think i'm going to go about it the same way again, just cut it undersized width wise and then cut the sides to fit the sawback as it is since it leans a tiny bit on the saw spine (just enough that you can't measure it and cut a symmetrical mortise and have it snug on both sides at the back).

Good to make the mistakes on the cheap stuff, huh? I guess with the amount of wood that's being used blowing a saw tote, it doesn't really matter, though. As far as the woods you mentioned, I don't think I'd use purpleheart - too splintery - get you in trouble somewhere on the tote, I think.

I'm going to be stuck using QS maple. My options are:
QS apple, QS sycamore (london commonwood?), QS black birch, QS cocobolo, QS walnut and QS macassar ebony. I'd like to make the tote out of the ebony, and have had nice results with plane totes and knobs, but it just isn't that much fun to mortise, and it's not forgiving. Maybe I'll try it on the next saw if I have some success with this one. Apple would be my next choice, but my large apple is still a bit too wet.

Sycamore would probably look boring, walnut is a maybe, but I want something harder, so I guess it will be maple.

tote and knob for the plane look good! Thread kind of died I guess because not enough people have tackled this and are willing to share their results. I'll post pictures of my totes if they come out right. Just want a comfortable tote and a straight saw!

[Andrew Gibson]

Well I guess I will chime in. I cut the slot for the plate by first marking out from both sides with a marking gauge to keep my mark centered, this also gave me a nice scribed line to follow.

I cut the saw plate slot first, then I was able to slide the plate into the handle and use a morking knife against the brass back to mark for it's mortice. Then I used a small forsner bit to drill out the majority of the wiast from the mortice then I finished with a sharp chisle. I didn't have a problem with the mortice being off center because I used the brass back to mark it.

Hopefully that will help.

[Zach England]

Well I guess I will chime in. I cut the slot for the plate by first marking out from both sides with a marking gauge to keep my mark centered, this also gave me a nice scribed line to follow.

I cut the saw plate slot first, then I was able to slide the plate into the handle and use a morking knife against the brass back to mark for it's mortice. Then I used a small forsner bit to drill out the majority of the wiast from the mortice then I finished with a sharp chisle. I didn't have a problem with the mortice being off center because I used the brass back to mark it.

Hopefully that will help.

Doh. Thanks. For whatever reason it did not occur to me to do that to mark the mortise. I was fiddling with my marking gauge trying to get the right measurements.

[David Weaver]

I cut the saw plate slot first, then I was able to slide the plate into the handle and use a morking knife against the brass back to mark for it's mortice. Then I used a small forsner bit to drill out the majority of the wiast from the mortice then I finished with a sharp chisle. I didn't have a problem with the mortice being off center because I used the brass back to mark it.


Exactly what I tried, except I marked too close to full width and the brass back was off center a little from that. Didn't use a drill either - stupidly never considered it.

Had to turn to a japanese mortise chisel because the ebony was obliterating the old cast steel chisel that I started with. One instance where I was happy that I blew money on some tools I really didn't need other than this occasion.

[Zach England]

Is there a trick to getting the counterbore holes on each side aligned? I don't have an actual counterbore, but am feeling like I need one. I have been drilling a through hole with the smallest bit I have then aligning my forstner bit with that hole on each side, but I cannot seem to get it right. I checked my drill press for square and it is right on. Any ideas what I might be doing?

[Jonathan McCullough]

Forgive me if you've tried this already and there's something else going on and/or I'm not understanding your query, but:

First, place your work, carefully align it with a 1/16th inch drill bit in the chuck, clamp the work down, drill the hole through. Then use the forstner bit to counterbore to depth. Turn the wood over, and put the 1/16th inch bit back in the chuck. Use it to register the hole on the other side. Clamp the wood down again with the 1/16th inch drill bit in the hole. Then replace the 1/16th inch drill bit with the forstner bit (or perhaps the appropriate size for the saw bolt, then the forstner) and drill the other side. This ensures that all your bores and counterbores are concentric.

At least that's what I think will help.

[george wilson]

I cut the mortise slot with a milling machine since we were making many saws with backs. The slot for the blade was hand sawn if the blade was narrow,like on the .015" Dalaway style dovetail blades.

We pre drilled the holes for the saw screws into the handles with a regular type drill bit, and hand squared up one side of the holes for the saw screws. I had made a set of special shaped counter sinks to bore out where the heads of the saw screws went. The counter bores made a tapered hole to match the saw screws. They had a pilot that fitted into the through holes for alignment. Afterwards we inserted the saw blades,which had no holes yet. With the blades in place,we drilled through the saw blades with a masonry bit running at high speed. That way we had no alignment issues with the saw screws.

I doubt this is going to help much if you have no milling machine,and your blades are pre drilled. I have made saws for several years before we made them in batches,where I just hand mortised the backs in.

I'd use the apple wood for handles. It eventually takes on a beautiful chestnut brown,though that might take MANY years. Curly maple also makes a nice handle,and I have used it myself for my personal saws.

[Zach England]

I wasn't registering the piece on the opposite side with the center bit. That worked beautifully. It seems so obvious now. Thanks.


Forgive me if you've tried this already and there's something else going on and/or I'm not understanding your query, but:

First, place your work, carefully align it with a 1/16th inch drill bit in the chuck, clamp the work down, drill the hole through. Then use the forstner bit to counterbore to depth. Turn the wood over, and put the 1/16th inch bit back in the chuck. Use it to register the hole on the other side. Clamp the wood down again with the 1/16th inch drill bit in the hole. Then replace the 1/16th inch drill bit with the forstner bit (or perhaps the appropriate size for the saw bolt, then the forstner) and drill the other side. This ensures that all your bores and counterbores are concentric.

At least that's what I think will help.

[Jonathan McCullough]

That's why I'd keep the drill press (or Bridgeport like George, if I could swing it) if I had to forsake all other electron-burning devices.

[David Weaver]

I cut the mortise slot with a milling machine since we were making many saws with backs. The slot for the blade was hand sawn if the blade was narrow,like on the .015" Dalaway style dovetail blades.

We pre drilled the holes for the saw screws into the handles with a regular type drill bit, and hand squared up one side of the holes for the saw screws. I had made a set of special shaped counter sinks to bore out where the heads of the saw screws went. The counter bores made a tapered hole to match the saw screws. They had a pilot that fitted into the through holes for alignment. Afterwards we inserted the saw blades,which had no holes yet. With the blades in place,we drilled through the saw blades with a masonry bit running at high speed. That way we had no alignment issues with the saw screws.

I doubt this is going to help much if you have no milling machine,and your blades are pre drilled. I have made saws for several years before we made them in batches,where I just hand mortised the backs in.

I'd use the apple wood for handles. It eventually takes on a beautiful chestnut brown,though that might take MANY years. Curly maple also makes a nice handle,and I have used it myself for my personal saws.

Thanks, George. I'm wishing for a milling machine right now- i figured that might be your answer. If I cut the mortise first, it's hard to see to cut the blade slot. If I cut the blade slot first, it's a pain to mortise it because the mortise is sprung somewhat.

Even though the apple isn't completely dry (it's QS, though), I pulled it out to use after being unhappy with the macassar ebony, and then unhappy with how the maple was chipping too easily against the rasp.

The apple works wonderfully with the rasp, very little splintering. First I've been able to use it, been waiting for it to dry for a year and a half now (3 inches thick).

No parameters to stick to - the saw plate is not drilled. Can do any tote and any hole pattern.

[Zach England]

I've almost (finally) finished one out of maple and I found a chunk of mystery wood that seems acceptable and is very pretty for the second one. I had to empty the scrap bucket because I got frustrated looking at all those half-finished handles in it. I would either cut the kerf wrong, cut the mortise wrong or drill the holes wrong.

[David Weaver]

I've almost (finally) finished one out of maple and I found a chunk of mystery wood that seems acceptable and is very pretty for the second one. I had to empty the scrap bucket because I got frustrated looking at all those half-finished handles in it. I would either cut the kerf wrong, cut the mortise wrong or drill the holes wrong.

I think I'd rather build an infill plane.

problem #1 for me is that I don't have a backsaw to cut the groove, at least not one without set that's filed rip. I've used a ryoba to cut the grooves, which has about enough set to make it a perfect fit for the blade, but the ryoba is flexing in the cut some.

I think it's going to be a case of making a usable tote by cutting a too-wide slot, and then using the saw to cut its own tote - one with a straight slot that's still snug.

I think I'd rather build planes than saws, but the chance to save that much money by making the tote and assembling the saw is just too tempting.

[Zach England]

To cut the kerf I sharpened the rip saw blade and milled some spacers to be half the thickness of my stock minus .01 (since the saw plate is .02) I clamped it to the top of my tablesaw (flatter than my bench, unfortunately) so I had the spacers, then the saw plate, then another piece of wood to keep it stiff. This way the kerf was straight, dead-center and sized properly.


I think I'd rather build an infill plane.

problem #1 for me is that I don't have a backsaw to cut the groove, at least not one without set that's filed rip. I've used a ryoba to cut the grooves, which has about enough set to make it a perfect fit for the blade, but the ryoba is flexing in the cut some.

I think it's going to be a case of making a usable tote by cutting a too-wide slot, and then using the saw to cut its own tote - one with a straight slot that's still snug.

I think I'd rather build planes than saws, but the chance to save that much money by making the tote and assembling the saw is just too tempting.

[Zach England]

I'd rather build furniture than planes or saws, but I need planes and saws to build furniture, and if I can save a few bucks by in-sourcing some of the work that's more money I can send to Lie-Nielsen and the folks at TFWW and Craftsman Studio.

[Andrew Gibson]

When I made mine I had the most trouble with the open tote. I think I ended up making 3 nearly complete handles. One got chucked out into the back yard and run over with the lawn mower. I wasn't the one doing the mowing. We have a lawn service, and they decided to mow the back section of the yard that is full of tree branches and tall grass. On the third one I learned to to do all the shaping last. The second one split when I was making the mortises for the saw nuts!

That reminds me, does anyone have a trick to eliminate a tine bit of movement between the handle and blade? That saw has a tiny bit of movement due to the fact that it was drilled for the second handle and a third had to be made. The movement does not hinder sawing, and the weight of the blade is not enough to make it shift.

[David Weaver]

A follow up post for those building this style of saw tote with the long mortise.

The tool of choice to make cutting the mortise to the back a lot easier was a simple bed float for planemaking.

A suitable version could easily be made about 6 teeth deep from the edge out of any piece of flat 1/8" steel, too.

Far faster and more precise than chiseling.

[george wilson]

Your apple is not yet dry enough to use. You should wait 1 year per inch of thickness.

IF you were VERY careful,you might be able to microwave it till dry. BUT!!!! it is very easy to burn the wood black from the inside if you go too fast.

I micro waved a piece of boxwood years ago,large enough to make a handle for a small dovetail saw. Got away with it,too. But the wood shrank quite dramatically during the process. Plus,it didn't stay flat at all.

You should experiment with another piece of apple to see what you can get away with before ruining the good piece. Take the wood out frequently,and feel how hot it is getting. Leave it WELL OVERSIZE,too. It is surprising how much it will shrink. Microwaving might exaggerate the shrinkage,I'm not sure.

I got into microwaving wood several years ago,when I was asked to make a gift for David Rockefeller from a giant oak tree in Williamsburg that fell down in a storm. They had a house there,and he used to swing on this tree when he was young.

You would have thought that the messiah had died when that tree went down!!!

Of course,the wood was fully wet. I warned the powers that be that the item would split to pieces,but they wanted a gift for him,make it happen.

The only thing I could think of was one of those infernal pens that everyone makes.

I cut some square lengths of the oak out,and burned a few up trying to get the process right. I was able to dry some after a few toasted pieces. This I made into a pen,and he was delighted with it. What do you make for a wealthy guy,anyway?

[David Weaver]

I think you have to make a holland and holland double but hand make what can be hand made and stamp it "george wilson"!

I could be wrong about the wetness of the apple, we'll see how it goes. It might be a little more dry than I think. I was taken aback by the hardness of the wood at first and thought that was wetness, but I don't really smell it rasping it and when it was new, it stunk.

By the time I find out, the rest of it will be dry - i'm going to exclude it from making hollows and rounds (which is why I bought it originally) because they don't see enough wear to make it worth wasting such good wood on.

It is dead quartersawn, which will help if it's a tiny bit wet. I know when it's not, it's got very bad behavior.

Still wish I had a mill! Had to break down and buy a drill press for the saw totes. Got along building infill planes without one just fine, so long as I could tune the lever cap and do some other backwoods tricks (like drilling a hole in a piece of scrap steel and then using it to keep the drill from wandering on the hole that counted), but I can't see ruining a saw plate by drilling a loose hole and then having no remedy, nor can I figure a good way to control such shallow depth with a hand drill and keep the hole centered.

As we had the discussion of trees in another thread, this is the big chunk of wood and was only allowed to ever get that big because it was an abandoned tree. I wish I had ten times as much of it.

I do have some scraps that I can throw in the microwave, might prove interesting.