Common sense when loaning tools, never again.

[John Fabre]

I had a friend ask to borrow my cordless saw to finish his basement. I was gloating that I had a new one. I don't like loaning my tools anyway, but he's a friend. He was cutting a 2x4 board held up on his leg, well should I explain more. Yes, he ruined his jeans, cut a quarter inch deep two inch long cut in his leg and now is out of work. His wife was mad at me, I should have given him instructions. Instructions, I needed to loan some common sense. No, I should have loaned him my boys Little Tykes plastic saw. Do I need to get a lawyer or be worried?

[Steven Green]

I'd worry, people have to have someone to blame. I don't loan tools. Period somebody gets hurt or they come back broken or they don't come back at all. Hope your friend is ok though.

[Karl Card]

this reminds me of working construction back in the 80's in st. pete florida. My sup kept telling this other guy on our crew to quit resting the circular saw on his leg after a rip... well after 3 times he finally got nailed... the guard did not come down and the blade just ate thru the sking and down into the bone... I even testified that he was warned more than 3 times about this and he still got work comp but in florida back then you could not sue for anything more than doc bills, mileage, Rx etc...

I hope everything goes ok for you.

[John Fabre]

It did happen at his home in the basement, maybe it would have been better to bring over my chop saw.

[Jason White]

My policy is to never loan out tools with blades or bits.



I had a friend ask to borrow my cordless saw to finish his basement. I was gloating that I had a new one. I don't like loaning my tools anyway, but he's a friend. He was cutting a 2x4 board held up on his leg, well should I explain more. Yes, he ruined his jeans, cut a quarter inch deep two inch long cut in his leg and now is out of work. His wife was mad at me, I should have given him instructions. Instructions, I needed to loan some common sense. No, I should have loaned him my boys Little Tykes plastic saw. Do I need to get a lawyer or be worried?

[Butch Edwards]

I don't loan, nor do I borrow. If I need, I buy. I don't know about the legal ramifications, but with society(and lawyers) being what it is..ya never know. hope it works out for ya

[Tom Rick]

Interesting question..
You were involved so share some degree of responsibility for what happened however slight that might be. Your fault- no, not in the least, but you are involved. Hope your friend is OK.
Over the years I have seen a few such incidents occur. From a brother in law leaning his arm down on a borrowed table saw while having a chat, to a bad lathe accident.
When I was in high school, a English teacher came in the wood shop after hours. He was given permission to use the lathe by the shop teacher. Ends up he mounts a large bowl poorly and gets the thing tossed up into his jaw with serious injuries resulting. He turns around and sues the shop teacher and school on the basis that they should not have given him permission to use the tool specifically because he should have been recognized as a person who was incapable of using it safely.

I work around a bunch of trades guys and do lend out tools. I don't lend out anything with a broken guard or other problems. I give clear instructions, safety warnings...etc. I won't let a guy just make a cut in the shop- I'll do it for him, but if he is doing some project at home and needs a tool, I'll lend it.

The most common problem for me is not lending tools- it's lending out my expertise.
As soon as you give a opinion- you've had it. It can go from just a question to project management and unofficial/unpaid contractor in heartbeat:eek:.

There is that saying- a friend in need....

[george wilson]

His wife is an idiot. Better hope she isn't vindictive,too. When I was the toolmaker in Williamsburg,other craftsmen would want to use some of the machines. I had written a safety manual for the machines in the shop. I made everyone who wanted to use the machines take the manual and return it signed before they could use the machines. I felt obligated to let them use the machines since they were museum property,not mine personally.

They weren't allowed to use my milling machine or metal lathes,just the wood working machinery. The self feeding metal machines could self destruct if someone let the tool holder run into the lathe chuck,etc..

[Curt Harms]

His wife is an idiot. Better hope she isn't vindictive,too. When I was the toolmaker in Williamsburg,other craftsmen would want to use some of the machines. I had written a safety manual for the machines in the shop. I made everyone who wanted to use the machines take the manual and return it signed before they could use the machines. I felt obligated to let them use the machines since they were museum property,not mine personally.

They weren't allowed to use my milling machine or metal lathes,just the wood working machinery. The self feeding metal machines could self destruct if someone let the tool holder run into the lathe chuck,etc..

That sounds like good policy. The knothead is certifying that he did read understand and agree to follow;) the manufacturer's instructions. And here's the signed proof.

[Troy Turner]

It did happen at his home in the basement, maybe it would have been better to bring over my chop saw.

My opinion..it happened at his house not yours. If it would've been yours, then if he wanted to push it, your homeowners might have to be kicked in. Since it was HIS house, I'd only feel obligated to check on his status in a couple of days, hope his wife gets over it, and hope everyone can still be friends.

I'd say talk to him about it and get his opinion. If he says his wife is truly upset thinking it's part your fault, then you might just want to shell out a couple of bucks for an office visit and pose the question to a lawyer.

Her initial reaction is to be mad at you...after she calms down, she may realize just how bone headed her husband was.

[Chris Kennedy]

I don't mind lending tools, but only if I think they know what they are doing. Of course, I would never expect someone to cut a piece of wood in their lap:eek:.

I wouldn't be overly worried. I would take the tack that the wife is angry at you because it is easier than admitting her husband is an idjit.

Cheers,

Chris

[Darrin Vanden Bosch]

You can teach someone to build anything, but you cannot teach anyone common sense.

[Will Overton]

Now you find out if your use of the word 'friend' in too liberal. Two years ago I was helping a friend with a door. I slipped with a utility knife and slashed his hand pretty bad.

We still laugh about it today, but he does step back if he sees me with a knife.;)

[Peter Quinn]

How does your friend feel about the situation. His wife is mad at you because she loves him and she's a crazy irrational woman., so that makes sense. If he's an idiot and she married him then she is an idiot by association. So you must be the idiot to clear her from blame. But how does he feell? My bil wanted a TS a while back, and I have several extra portables, but I said no way in Gods green earth was I lending a newb a machine that can cut off digits. So he and my SIL bought their own, and when I went to check out their set up, it was probably the scariest thing I had ever seen. Blade full up, fence mall adjusted, roving knife not aligned with blade, no out feed support, just push till the wood drops off the table. I asked " Why do you have the blade raised almost 3" to cut 3/4" pine." Answer? Because the saw came that way! Mine all have the guards and safety devices removed, so there was no lending them those, I'm willing and able to work that way but would never let a novice do it. I know cabinet makers with decades of experience that dred using a skill saw claiming it's not safe! At least with a Ts you can see the blade. At least if my Bil had borrowed my saw it would have been set up properly and he would have gotten my annoying and didactic waggy finger tutorial on TS safety and use.

I seldom lend tools, but when I do I always mention even to seasoned users "Hey, this thing can hurt you bad, and if you hurt. Your self that's on you, so work safe and ask any questions you need to."

[Mike Goetzke]

I was always looking for a reason not to loan out tools. I read on one of the forums (maybe this one) that you should just say you would like to loan out the tool but your insurance company won't allow - it works every time w/o looking like your a you know what.

Mike

[Steve Southwood]

Take some cash and put it in an envelope. Write his name on the outside and also put what he bought, ie cordless saw. Set it back for a while, if it ever comes to it, just provide the envelope and say he bought. You kept the money to prove he bought it and that you didn't loan it to him. Kind of a crappy way to treat a friend, but her way is worse.

[Bruce Koch]

Common sense isn't that common.

[Greg Peterson]

I loaned a hedge trimmer AND extension cord to the one of my neighbors, once. He cut the cord - no biggie - and because he didn't have a grounded outlet he removed the ground pin from the plug.

The cord was just an average run of the mill inexpensive cord. Accidents are one thing, permanently modifying in the negative is another thing. I considered it a very cheap lesson on loaning tools.

[David G Baker]

I do not lend tools for all of the above mentioned reasons. Great way to loose friends when bad things happen.

[Myk Rian]

If someone wants to borrow a tool, sell it to him, give/get a receipt, and if it comes back OK, and borrower is uninjured, buy it back.

[glenn bradley]

I have learned that you just do not loan tools. That's why Harbor Freight tools are so cheap; so I don't have to loan you mine ;-)

[ray hampton]

I've been a D I Y guy and never been hurt too badly in spite of the dangerous jobs that I undertook to do
fan belts for cars used to have a warning on the package ---do not try to remove the belt while the engine are running

[Mitchell Andrus]

I saw this sign at a fella's shop a while ago:

I don't borrow your wife, you don't borrow my tools.
.

[george wilson]

IF YOU GIVE THEM MONEY for a doctor visit,it might be a legal admission of guilt on your part. BE CAREFUL about doing anything like that.

It's kind of like:If someone does a job for you,and you pay them,it's a legal admission from you that you were satisfied with the job. If you find out later that the job wasn't properly done,it's too bad for you.

[Tony Bilello]

I had a friend ask to borrow my cordless saw to finish his basement. ..... He was cutting a 2x4 board held up on his leg,.... cut a quarter inch deep two inch long cut in his leg and now is out of work. His wife was mad at me, ....Instructions, I needed to loan some common sense. .... Do I need to get a lawyer or be worried?

I wouldn't worry about a thing. It might be different if it happened in your house. Then as someone said earlier, your home owners policy might kick in. In this particular instance, he screwed up using a dangerous technique that defies common sense. Besides lawyers go for the money. Unless you are worth a lot of money, they are not going to get involved.
I sometimes let friends use my tools in my shop. Could I be held liable? Maybe...but I dont live my life in fear of lawsuits. I suggest you don't either. Besides, that is one person that wont be borrowing your tools again.

[Cody Colston]

Why worry about it? You can't do anything to change what happened now. Personally, I don't think he would have a leg to stand on (pun intended), but if the guy sues you, get a lawyer. If he doesn't, well, you've learned a good lesson about loaning out tools. But don't waste your time stressing over possible consequences.

[Eric DeSilva]

Take some cash and put it in an envelope. Write his name on the outside and also put what he bought, ie cordless saw. Set it back for a while, if it ever comes to it, just provide the envelope and say he bought. You kept the money to prove he bought it and that you didn't loan it to him. Kind of a crappy way to treat a friend, but her way is worse.

Seems like a bad idea. Compounding a bad situation by fraudulently pretending it was a sale isn't going to help anything.

[Eric DeSilva]

You were involved so share some degree of responsibility for what happened however slight that might be.

I disagree completely. He could have had the same thing happen if he went to the store and bought one himself. Being "involved" doesn't mean that you bear one iota of responsibility.

People can sue you for damn near anything. But whether they would win is entirely another matter. If anything happens--and I find it highly unlikely that any decent lawyer would take his case--check your homeowners policy. It may cover suits even if they don't occur in your house.

[Thomas Williams]

John,
Call your insurance company and report this. Move on, what is done is done. If he sues you, he really wasn't a friend was he?
If you want or need legal advice, talk to a lawyer.

[John Fabre]

I was always looking for a reason not to loan out tools. I read on one of the forums (maybe this one) that you should just say you would like to loan out the tool but your insurance company won't allow - it works every time w/o looking like your a you know what.

Mike

I totally agree with that or my wallet can't afford it too.

[george wilson]

That idiot that sued Ryobi after using the saw completely wrong won,didn't he? Lawyers can talk stupid juries into nearly anything these days,it seems.

[Matt Logana]

I believe this falls under the catagory of negligence. I am no lawyer... but it does seem mighty negligent on his behalf to use improper cutting apparati. I would say that he probably stands no chance in court.

Did you injure him? No.
Did you do something that directly lead to him being injured? No.
Did you damage personal property? No.
Did you do something that lead to damage of personal property? No.

Well there you have it; NO. lol.. If it goes to small claims court, then no laywer involved (I believe its under 10k.) If it actually gets a date in "large claims" court... then just get yourself the best lawyer money can buy.... as long as you win you'll get back what you spend and then some.

[John Fabre]

His wife called to apologized and offered to buy me a new saw today. Believe me I wasn't worried about my saw, it's a little red though. Now, if I was helping him and it wouldn't happened. He's going to be fine, fifteen stitches later. He will be out of work for two weeks. I think I will take them up on their offer for a new saw.

[Van Huskey]

GREAT news, hope your buddy is getting better. I was reasing the thread planning to tell you not to worry, just like Cody, but seems now all is likely well on the liability front.

[Matt Logana]

His wife called to apologized and offered to buy me a new saw today. Believe me I wasn't worried about my saw, it's a little red though. Now, if I was helping him and it wouldn't happened. He's going to be fine, fifteen stitches later. He will be out of work for two weeks. I think I will take them up on their offer for a new saw.

I dont want to sound like a jerk, but here is my advice. So please take it for what its worth, and as friendly advice.

I wouldnt take him up on the offer for a new saw. Sure its a little red, but I think you would appear as more of a friend if you didnt take their money; after all they are looking at some pretty big medical bills. Its merely my advice, but in the end, it might be cheaper just to buy yourself a new saw, or use it as it is: because he may have something that you need some day, that you would rather not buy.... or maybe a particular set of skills, such as maybe hes a mechanic or an engineer, atleast hobbiest.

[Tom Rick]

I disagree completely. He could have had the same thing happen if he went to the store and bought one himself. Being "involved" doesn't mean that you bear one iota of responsibility.

People can sue you for damn near anything. But whether they would win is entirely another matter. If anything happens--and I find it highly unlikely that any decent lawyer would take his case--check your homeowners policy. It may cover suits even if they don't occur in your house.

I believe that we bear a measure of responsibility for our every word and act. It is inescapable and not something which is defined by ourselves or a court of law.

Are we to blame? No. But by becoming involved we are part of an event. A event in this case that caused a person to injure themselves.

Do you see no difference between :

" He could have had the same thing happen if he went to the store and bought one himself."

And if I had advised this person to go purchase a saw for some task?

Or,

If I had even given him this saw for a task with all the attendant correct assessments on my part that I am lending the appropriate saw for the named task to the appropriate person to accomplish this task?

[Rick Markham]

His wife called to apologized and offered to buy me a new saw today. Believe me I wasn't worried about my saw, it's a little red though. Now, if I was helping him and it wouldn't happened. He's going to be fine, fifteen stitches later. He will be out of work for two weeks. I think I will take them up on their offer for a new saw.

I'd just take my saw back, clean it really well, and not stress the friendship in anyway. Now if he ever asked to borrow anything again, I would tell him he isn't allowed to have sharp/dangerous objects anymore.

I'd invite them over for dinner and put a cork on the end of his fork and not give him a knife... but that's what friends do :D

[Dar Lounsbury]

Common sense isn't that common.

My feelings exactly. They are going to be mad if you don't loan the tool and they are going to be mad if they get hurt. You do the math, not loaning tools is the best way to go.

Dar

[Marty Paulus]

I'd just take my saw back, clean it really well, and not stress the friendship in anyway. Now if he ever asked to borrow anything again, I would tell him he isn't allowed to have sharp/dangerous objects anymore.

I'd invite them over for dinner and put a cork on the end of his fork and not give him a knife... but that's what friends do :D

Rick,

have you met my friends? This is exactly what we would do to each other in this situation.

[Rick Markham]

Rick,

have you met my friends? This is exactly what we would do to each other in this situation.

Marty, those are the best kind of friends to have... unless your the one stuck eating dinner with a cork on your fork :D

It's a small world ya never know! LOL

[John Coloccia]

Yeah, geez. Just clean the saw. If I replaced everything in my shop that had a little blood on it, I'd go broke.

[Prashun Patel]

I don't think you need to worry.

The manufacturer of the circular saw, however should probably be scared; it's obvious the saw did not have flesh-or-jeans-sensing technology.

[Matt Meiser]

Hopefully your friend doesn't clean it in alcohol for you, then turn it on to see if it still works. :eek:

[Dave MacArthur]

just a wee bit off topic, but I hope germane to the thread and a nice form for you to have in situations like this. Some good ideas on forms to fill out PRE-LOAN, here is a good form the Army has ( ;) ) for POST-LOAN, if they turn out to be a whiner...

file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Root/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-5.pnghttp://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv37/punkrockHR/hurt-feelings-report.jpg

[Rick Markham]

just a wee bit off topic, but I hope germane to the thread and a nice form for you to have in situations like this. Some good ideas on forms to fill out PRE-LOAN, here is a good form the Army has ( ;) ) for POST-LOAN, if they turn out to be a whiner...

Uh, thanks Dave! That totally got saved, and will be printed and used the next time my GF gets her "feelers hurt" :D

[Keith Westfall]

Uh, thanks Dave! That totally got saved, and will be printed and used the next time my GF gets her "feelers hurt"

Now that may cause an incident/accident in your life!!!!!!:D

[Marty Paulus]

I am thiniking the better report to read will be from the ER Dr. "So Mr. Markham, Exactly what did you say to your GF to make her mad enough to put that (large object) into that body cavity???":eek:

[Eric DeSilva]

I believe that we bear a measure of responsibility for our every word and act. It is inescapable and not something which is defined by ourselves or a court of law.

Are we to blame? No. But by becoming involved we are part of an event. A event in this case that caused a person to injure themselves.

We can agree to disagree. Question is "responsibility for what"? I agree that we take responsibility for our actions. His action here was lending a saw. That action in no way should imply responsibility--moral or legal--for the subsequent act of the users injury.

By his action, is he "responsible" for the BP oil well leak? Hell no. It is a matter of whether his actions actually caused the injury. I will go down swearing they didn't, and I don't think that is an abdication of any responsibility.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Do I need to get a lawyer or be worried?

No. If he's going to sue, he has to serve you notice which will provide you plenty of time to retain counsel.

I'm not sure what theory of recovery he'd use anyway.
The theories of recovery I can think of are all about harms to third parties and not the user of the entrusted implement. But that doesn't mean he can't try.

Here is a very well researched Law Review article on the five elements of Negligence.
It'll make for a very enlightening read.
http://law.hofstra.edu/pdf/Academics/Journals/LawReview/lrv_issues_v35n04_i01.pdf
It also has one of the very finest explanations of the element of "Proximate Cause" which law school tort professors take endless delight at playing that endless game of "hide the ball" on their students.


He can sue the manufacturer and the manufacturer might then implead you (third party joinder) as a defendant on the theory that you negligently entrusted him with the tool and insist that if they owe anything to the injured person, then you owe some or all of that to them.
But the manufacturer's likelihood of getting a jury to turn away from their deep pockets and look to you (just a work-a-day guy) to make the plaintiff right is pretty remote. Plus the bad press it'd generate might be a motivation for them to avoid such nonsense.

[Don Morris]

I haven't read all the intermediate threads. Got better things. But I'm the recipient of a creeker loaning me his hammardrill to make two holes. We live close enough and both are long time creekers who obviously have a background in wwing and use of tools. I would hate to see reason not be used in the decision making process on this point. If a creeker with lots of good posts needed a particular tool for just one particular cut that I just happened to have that particular type of tool and he didn't...I'd hate to think he'd have to spend $400.00 to buy that tool, just to make one cut then probably never use that tool ever again (like I never needed a hammardrill in over 20+ yrs and probably will never need one again). The hammardrill was demonstrated to me, I used it as it was demonstrated, I returned it the next weekend with a bottle of wine and a hearty "Thank You!"

[Mike Cruz]

In the immortal words of Ron White...

You can't fix stupid! (grin...and...wait for it, wait for it...sip...)

[Rick Markham]

All very good points! However, she is subjected to my sense of humor all of the time, so I live in constant fear... Why stop now? :D

[John Fabre]

My friend called and admitted he was drinking (beer) before he started to finish his basement. He really wants to buy me a new saw, he threw it after the accident happened. Plus he wants to keep it as a reminder. Hey, I’ll get a new saw and still have the extra battery to go with it. C’mon, how many people drink and saw? What a friend, throwing borrowed tools, never again.

[Ruhi Arslan]

... He really wants to buy me a new saw, he threw it after the accident happened. ... What a friend, ....

I'd say a "good" one. Obviously he doesn't share his wife's reactionary outburst following the incident (not an "accident" in my opinion). He is a keeper friend as long as he doesn't request to borrow again.
Glad it will turn out to be not bad for you not so bad for him. How close was the injury to the proximity of the area which may have his wife got worried/mad by the way? ;)

[Matt Logana]

Sorry then, my previous advice was incorrect: I hadnt realized that he had thrown it out. In that case, then sure, I would allow him to buy me a new one.

Id then buy him a "Bubble Boy" Bubble and tell him to stay in it...

[Dave Lehnert]

I had a friend who had a party at his home. A friend of his got injured (not on a tool) The injured and his family was all cool what happened (Just an accident that was my fault, The friend said) The injured person medical insurance sued my friend and won.

[Kent A Bathurst]

I've got a great guy for a neighbor [his wife and his daughter are more-than-great]. However, you couldn't call him handy even if her were an octopus.

I've loaned him tools from time-to-time. But - if they can draw blood - I just say "Whatcha got going? I'll stop over." It actually is kinda fun that way - I do the power tool work, and he has to do the scut work. Lift. Grunt. Sweat. Plus, I get free beer (AFTER the power tools are done).

[Josiah Bartlett]

I loaned my neighbor my lunchbox planer and he brought it back with two new sets of blades attached to it. I keep trying to loan him other tools... I'm getting low on bandsaw blades. He understands the risk, though... he used to be an engineer at a sawmill. I wouldn't loan my planer to a noob.

[Matt Logana]

I loaned my neighbor my lunchbox planer and he brought it back with two new sets of blades attached to it. I keep trying to loan him other tools... I'm getting low on bandsaw blades. He understands the risk, though... he used to be an engineer at a sawmill. I wouldn't loan my planer to a noob.

Thats what you have to do... dont loan it to someone who couldnt operate a handsaw let alone a power saw, but rather loan it to someone who has had some experience...

[Nathan Allen]

Personally I'd let him keep the saw; once tools have tasted human flesh its impossible to satiate them. Mark my word, it may not happen today or tomorrow but sometime down the road BAM, Herpes.

A true friend would pick him up a pair of those harbor freight plastic saw horses.

[Greg Portland]

My policy is to never loan out tools with blades or bits.+1. I also ask myself the question "how upset will I be if this tool is destroyed?".