It's Finished! Coping Saw-sized Japanese-Pull-Type Bow Saw (for Dovetails)

[Tom LaRussa]

Anybody ever seen or heard of making a bow-type saw with a pistol grip instead of a turned ball-type thingie?

The reason I ask is because I am thinking about trying to build a small bow-saw (patterned for the most part after Bob Smalser's Improved Coping Saw) for cutting dovetails.

Bow saws have always looked unwieldy to me, what with most of the weight positioned above the handle when the saw is in a horizontal mode. I'm thinking that switching to a pistol grip would help with this and also allow the user to hold an index finger along the side of the blade for better control.

Comments???

[Jerry Crawford]

Tom,

I've never seen what you're thinking of doing but that doesn't mean it can't work. I doubt adding a modern saw handle will much improve your control though, and with a little practice with the tried and true one in your hand you might discover that the century's old design has merit of it's own. There is a feeling of a real hand full of tool when you wrap your hand around the frame of a bow saw. I can't speak for others but I've never held onto the "handle" of a bow in use. Your hand and wrist would be in a very unwieldy and painful angle if you held it that way. I alway's wrapped my hand around the frame/blade anchor. Anyway, IMHO, that handle sticking out of each end is mostly there to artfully terminate the blade anchor pin and twist the blade.

IMHO, I've always believed it is a fairly graceful and delicate work of art with balance and proportions. I'm sure you've already considered other type of saws for cutting dovetails. I'd be interested in your reason for rejecting those and striking out on your own adding a modern modification?

Finally, take another look at the saws on my web site I just finished. The bow saw carries a 16" blade and weighs less than a pound. There just isn't any awkward mass or imbalance apparent when you use it.

Jerry

[Louis Bois]

Mornin' Tom,

Your idea sounds intriguing...it's just a question of balancing esthetics with form and function. We're so used to seeing the traditional style that anything else would seem like heresy! I always applaud innovation and creativity, but the bottom line is comfort and funcionality for the given task. In this case, it seems like an area that could be revisited...and perhaps even improved upon.

I agree with Jerry about the use of handles on the trad. bowsaws...I just use em as blade tighteners/twisters. I actually hold the frame when sawing...and Jerry, you're actually holding the handle in the last pic of your bowsaw article!!!:eek::D:eek: I'm sure you're doing that simply to take the photo with your right hand! OOPS!!!

Keep us posted on your design developments Tom...always interesting. How are you enjoying your hacker bench BTW?!?:rolleyes:

[Jerry Crawford]

Mornin' Tom,

I agree with Jerry about the use of handles on the trad. bowsaws...I just use em as blade tighteners/twisters. I actually hold the frame when sawing...and Jerry, you're actually holding the handle in the last pic of your bowsaw article!!!:eek::D:eek: I'm sure you're doing that simply to take the photo with your right hand! OOPS!!! :

HA - another early riser :p

but, you are correct about the handling of the saw in my site picture. I was trying to snap the picture with my right hand and hold the wobbly saw upright in the kerf and that's just how it came out. :rolleyes:

nevertheless, your point is well taken. I have another saw on the bench this week and when finished that one will be photographed more correctly

[Marc Hills]

Tom:

While I'm generally in agreement with Jerry that the current bowsaw design is probably the near perfect result of design evolution, I'd like to encourage you to try out your pistol grip idea.

In this minor renaissance of hand tool usage, we shouldn't necessarally be beholden to traditional designs. True, the classic tool forms, borne of generations of trial and error, probably do represent the near epitome of hand tool design. But as Veritas is showing us on an almost seasonal basis, it doesn't mean old designs can't be improved upon.

If you've got the time and inclination, I say go for it. One design consideration I'd like to suggest however. I propose that you incorporate your pistol grip as an extension of one of the two upright arms, rather than where the ball grip would normally go. If you do this, I think that you'll achieve a hand grip position that affords both better control and leverage over the cutting action.

If you go this route however, you'll have to really think through wood choice and grain orientation, or even consider a laminated tool component. A combined bow saw upright and pistol grip will need to handle both tensile and shear forces, and depending on how you design and lay out the pistol grip, those forces could be concentrated in a small area that runs across, rather than with, the wood grain.

Naturally, if you proceed, we expect to see pictures of the result, whether or not you meet with success. Remember, at SMC, we have very long memories.

[Jerry Crawford]

hear-hear Marc, I support the idea that experimentation is necessary for the learning and creation of new and improved usefulness. I did that when I designed in those doglegs on the frame saw I made so Tom and I parallel thinkers. I've had fun experimenting and documenting my process & I look forward to seeing what Tom comes up with. :D

[Bob Smalser]

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5305809/68021496.jpg

I've got these out for trial with two West Coast shipwrights and two local high-end finish carpenters who are using them regularly, and this is the consensus on how small saws like this should be held. The closer the hand is to the blade the more precise the control.

The knob handle should be sized to fit the individual hand, as there is a lot of preference variation there.

[Mark Singer]

Bob ,

That is beautiful! And a nice size for small joinery. Are you selling them?

[Bob Smalser]

That's why I post the design for folks to make their own. Too many steps and the resulting too many hours, Mark...and I've made one or two before over the decades.

6 hours @ 40 bucks a shop hour simply isn't reasonable for a 15-dollar coping saw....and I've already plenty of work backed up for that amount of money. I wouldn't sell anything at a lesser level of finish, either.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=12368&highlight=coping

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5305809/68250708.jpg

[Jerry Crawford]

6 hours @ 40 bucks a shop hour simply isn't reasonable for a 15-dollar coping saw....and I've already plenty of work backed up for that amount of money. I wouldn't sell anything at a lesser level of finish, either.


I hear that! I have over 40 hours in my first pair, but that was mostly learning curve. Besides, something like this is best made by the user and it's a personal gloat when it's finished. OTOH, they make perfect gifts to son's and brothers who are also woodworkers.

http://home.comcast.net/~boondocker1/finished%20pair.jpg

[Dan Moening]

Here ya go, Tom:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=13875&item=6135953353&rd=1

:p
Ok, its more of a hacksaw, but it might provide some inspiration.

FWIW I recently made a Smalser-style coping saw. The grip shown above is actually quite comfortable...and the tension you can apply with this design is incredible.

When the digicam is operational I'll post a pic.

[Tom LaRussa]

I can't speak for others but I've never held onto the "handle" of a bow in use. Your hand and wrist would be in a very unwieldy and painful angle if you held it that way. I alway's wrapped my hand around the frame/blade anchor. Anyway, IMHO, that handle sticking out of each end is mostly there to artfully terminate the blade anchor pin and twist the blade.

{{{snip}}}

I'd be interested in your reason for rejecting those and striking out on your own adding a modern modification?

Jerry,

Part of the answer to your question lies in your statement above it. If the only reason for the knob is as an anchor to the blade, then why not make something with a proper handle instead? This is especially so since for my purpose I do not want the blade to be able to spin on its axis; indeed, I want it anchored parallel to the frame of the saw.

I have tried other saws -- a couple pull saws, some rigid-backed saws like Leif makes, and one of those ambidextrous (sp?) dovetail saws -- you know, where the handle can be reversed so that it offsets either right or left.

But the saw I like best of all for accurate cutting is my Nobex Champion -- which is essentially an aluminum bow saw attached to a miter device. So what I'm really trying to do is create a much smaller, wooden version of the Nobex for use on dovetails.

Does that make sense?

[Tom LaRussa]

Tom:

While I'm generally in agreement with Jerry that the current bowsaw design is probably the near perfect result of design evolution, I'd like to encourage you to try out your pistol grip idea.

In this minor renaissance of hand tool usage, we shouldn't necessarally be beholden to traditional designs. True, the classic tool forms, borne of generations of trial and error, probably do represent the near epitome of hand tool design. But as Veritas is showing us on an almost seasonal basis, it doesn't mean old designs can't be improved upon.
Thanks Mark! :)




If you've got the time and inclination, I say go for it. One design consideration I'd like to suggest however. I propose that you incorporate your pistol grip as an extension of one of the two upright arms, rather than where the ball grip would normally go. If you do this, I think that you'll achieve a hand grip position that affords both better control and leverage over the cutting action.
Gee, nobody's gonna believe me now, but that's what I've been planning all along. :( :p



If you go this route however, you'll have to really think through wood choice and grain orientation, or even consider a laminated tool component. A combined bow saw upright and pistol grip will need to handle both tensile and shear forces, and depending on how you design and lay out the pistol grip, those forces could be concentrated in a small area that runs across, rather than with, the wood grain.
Hmm... Now that I hadn't really thought of. I just figured that so long as I used a nice strong wood and kept it reasonably thick I wouldn't have to worry about it.



Naturally, if you proceed, we expect to see pictures of the result, whether or not you meet with success. Remember, at SMC, we have very long memories.
Oh don't worry, as a part-time member of the Pic Police, I know the rules!

In fact, here is the first pic for you. It's just a mock-up. I have one handle roughed out, so I posed it with a blade, a piece of wood to represent a stretcher, and a piece of metal rod to represent the tensioning thingie. Then I flipped the pic and pasted the flipped version next to the original so it sort of looks like a complete saw, except that the proportions are way off and it's sort of bent in the middle.

Let me know what you think.

[Tom LaRussa]

6 hours @ 40 bucks a shop hour simply isn't reasonable for a 15-dollar coping saw....and I've already plenty of work backed up for that amount of money. I wouldn't sell anything at a lesser level of finish, either.
Bob,

I'm no expert on woodworking, but I've surfed every fine tool site out there and I can say with absolute certainty that what you made ain't no $15 coping saw! (Not that I'm arguing for you to go into tool making -- what you do is your business.)

BTW, thanks for posting your plan. :) If you look at my mockup above you'll see (I think?) that I started with your plan but kind of mushed things together a tiny bit so I'd have room to extend a handle below the blade.

[Tom LaRussa]

Here ya go, Tom:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=13875&item=6135953353&rd=1

:p
Ok, its more of a hacksaw, but it might provide some inspiration.
Dan,

Actually I think it's a bone saw -- for cutting through joints of meat.



FWIW I recently made a Smalser-style coping saw. The grip shown above is actually quite comfortable...and the tension you can apply with this design is incredible.

When the digicam is operational I'll post a pic.
Hey, you know the rules. No pic, no tool! ;) :p

[Dan Moening]

Is that the actual blade, or just a mock up? :eek:

Couple things that come to mind ( a gentle critique ;)) :

If that is the blade you intend to use...you may have to provide two connection points on each side. One connection on each side may not tension the blade fully (evenly) across its width.

Unless I'm not picturing it properly, the pistol grip appears to be below the blade ... in effect changing what sawyers call the "hang" to be pointing well below where the cut is taking place.

I hope you are planning on keeping the natural edge on the stock...

This is going to be one awesome looking tool!

[Tom LaRussa]

Is that the actual blade, or just a mock up? :eek:Uh, no, that's the actual blade.

Remember, even though I started out using Bob Smalser's coping saw plan, I'm not building a coping saw.

A coping saw uses a really narrow blade so that it can easily be turned inside the curf. I am using a wide blade because I want just the opposite, i.e., I want it to be as nearly impossible as I can make it for the blade to turn or wander in the curf.



Couple things that come to mind ( a gentle critique ;)) :Excellent! I need all the help I can get. :D



If that is the blade you intend to use...you may have to provide two connection points on each side. One connection on each side may not tension the blade fully (evenly) across its width.Yeah, I kinda figured that. And that's where it just begins to get hairy, execution-wise. What I want to do is, in essence, mortise the blade into the handle, then hold it in place with a couple of bolts going through each end like the pins on a mortise and tennon joint in wood.

Problem is I haven't yet figured out how to cut a mortise perfectly square to the stock and only 1/16" wide. I'm thinking of drilling a hole then threading a fine coping saw blade through it to make the cut.



Unless I'm not picturing it properly, the pistol grip appears to be below the blade ... in effect changing what sawyers call the "hang" to be pointing well below where the cut is taking place.Hmmm... I take it that's not "a good thing" (as Martha Stewart used to say)?

I'm posting a pic of the handle in my hot little hand. Does this grip look like a problem?



I hope you are planning on keeping the natural edge on the stock...You mean all rough like that, or just not machine-cut looking?

My plan is to rough out with pattern-makers files, (Nicholson #49 & #50 that I picked up cheap thanks to Dave from NH), then do some smoothing with a (Record, round bottomed) spoke shave, then clean it all up with my home-made card scraper, which I made from a piece of a former Marples pull-saw that I ruined trying to cut plywood with it -- :mad: dumb :mad: .

[Jerry Crawford]

make sense..? Absolutly. Thanks

[Dan Moening]

Uh, OK, so you're making a bowsaw sized frame saw. Got it! :p:D

The rough edges I refered to were the result of my poor eyesight and a bad monitor...I thought they were "natural" as edge-of-tree kinda thing. oops.

Mounting the blade is going to the hairy part...especially if you do use 2 connections on each side. Come to think of it you may have to mount the 2 posts with the top one slightly towards outside ... as the tension is increased the lower post will start to tension first, yes?

At the moment I can't think of a better way to cut the slot than threading a fine blade into a hole as you have suggested. Wanna bet that Bob has a boat builders secret for this :D

BTW the grip looks just fine ;)

[Louis Bois]

Tom,

You may just want to consider cutting a thin kerf all the way up from the bottom of the handle to the saw blade position and fill the resultant gap with a piece of contrasting wood. I can't imagine cutting a 1/32 mortise to house that blade. Just an idea...

[Jerry Crawford]

what is the problem with using only one adjusting knob? Anchor the near end of the blade in the base of the handle and use a knob of the same kind of contrasting wood from the handle at the other end of the blade. As long as you're not cutting out dovetails in boards so wide the throat of the saw can't reach the middle of the board you'll not even have to twist the blade just rotate over the whole saw

[Bruce Shiverdecker]

I made this one about a year ago and use it for all kinds of cuts. It uses an 18" blade.

Bruce ;)

[Tom LaRussa]

Tom,

You may just want to consider cutting a thin kerf all the way up from the bottom of the handle to the saw blade position and fill the resultant gap with a piece of contrasting wood. I can't imagine cutting a 1/32 mortise to house that blade. Just an idea...
And a pretty darn good one. I cut the kerf on my bandsaw and it works like a charm. I may not even fill the gap, as squeezing the two sides together applies more pressure on the blade.

[Tom LaRussa]

what is the problem with using only one adjusting knob? Anchor the near end of the blade in the base of the handle and use a knob of the same kind of contrasting wood from the handle at the other end of the blade. As long as you're not cutting out dovetails in boards so wide the throat of the saw can't reach the middle of the board you'll not even have to twist the blade just rotate over the whole saw
Jerry,

I'm shooting for a bow saw that is sized like a coping saw, not an actual coping saw. In other words, I don't want the blade to be able to twist at all. And since I won't be using a knob to twist the blade, and they don't look like very comfortable hands, I'm trying to eliminate them altogether. :)

[Tom LaRussa]

I made this one about a year ago and use it for all kinds of cuts. It uses an 18" blade.

Bruce ;)
Very nice work, Bruce.

I especially like the little finger cutouts on the right.

What did you use for your tensioning string?

[Tom LaRussa]

Here is a new pic. (The color in the pic is darker than it should be.)

I've got both handles roughed out, with Louis' kerf cut to hold the blade. I have not cut the mortises and tenons for the stringer yet, so you have to use your imagination a bit.

I've started playing with finishes even though the wood is not smoothed yet. What you see here is a layer of BLO topped by a layer of Zinnser amber shellac diluted to about a 1 lb cut.

For the final product I'm thinking more along the lines of Bob Smalser's boat soup, but without the pine tar. Have to see if I can rig up an outdoor double boiler first though.

[Louis Bois]

WOW!!! This thing has the graceful curves of a Monroe physique...with the strength of a sideshow strongman!!! Can't wait to see how she flies through lumber!

...looking good Tom...

as an aside...the only reason I was thinking you'd fill in the sawn kerf was to avoid pinching the palm of your hand during use...but I'm sure the resultant gap will be negligible once the blade is tightened.

[Dan Moening]

Very nice!

I agree with Louis' description as well...

A Chyna bowsaw :D

The grain really shows well.

Let us know if you can find a viable solution to making boat soap.
Something along the lines of coleman stove, crabpot etc.?
That's something that I'd like to try.

[Jerry Crawford]

Did I miss the size of this? HOw long is that blade? 6 - 8 "

[Tom LaRussa]

Did I miss the size of this? HOw long is that blade? 6 - 8 "
It's just over 8" between the frame parts. :)

[Jerry Crawford]

ah! OK thanks

[Bruce Shiverdecker]

Sorry Tom, I got waylaid and forgot I posted to this thread. I wanted something with some give, so I used braided Nylon. If I remember correctly, It is3/8". Note that it is not aactually tied. The pressure against the ends hold it in place.

Now for the GOOD STUFF - That one of your is just beautiful. The wood, the design, and the execution is fantastic.

Bruce

OOPs, I just noticed ....... you see the wrong side, you can't see the overlap on the rope. If you want, I can take another picture from the other side and post it.

[Tom LaRussa]

It's almost done! I have to finish the finish, and then I'm just waiting for the braided nylon cord to arrive from Lee Valley.

It's based on Bob Smalser's bow saw, except that I extended the frame down into handles. It's also not as heavily built as Bob's bow saw, but I figure it does not need to be because the wide blade is naturally resistant to bending so I don't need to be able to crank the pressure down all that tight.

What do y'all think?

[Jerry Crawford]

Nice flow of line and jointery. I love the width of the blade for DT's. BTW, you can get waxed linen or hemp string at craft shops for about $0.50 a spool that will work perfect for your tightening string. That's what I use on the bow saw on my web site. It's perfect.

BTW, if you have another piece of that blade left I'll buy it from you for my own DT saw. Drop me a note if you're interested

[Louis Bois]

Well Tom,

You did it again...the first things that come to mind when I look at that creation are...WEIRD...and...WONDERFUL! Let us know how she performs. I say "she" because...to me...she's still Marilyn. :D

[Tom LaRussa]

Well she's done! I say "she" because ever since Louis called her "Marilyn" that's how I've thought of her.

The tightening string-stuff is 190 lb cord from Lee Valley.

The finish:

[1] Overnight soak in BLO;

[2] 2 layer rub-down with Maloof-esqe stuff, i.e. a mixture of BLO, terpentine, and carnauba wax, melted in a double boiler and then smoothed in a blender;

[3] 3 coats of 1 lb cut clear Zinser shellac. Sanding after each layer with a white (ultra fine) 3M non-woven pad.

The verdict:

Hmm...

First off, I stink at using hand saws, so I'm not sure I'm the best person to evaluate one, even if I did build the thing.

After one quick cut in a piece of maple, I think I may have made the blade too short and/or the teeth too small. The balance is good, but it's hard to keep such a short saw going straight, and I think the shortness of the blade exacerbates my natural tendency to wander. Similarly, I used a 24 TPI blade in order to get as smooth a cut as possible, but it cuts so slowly that my pea brain has trouble concentrating until the cut is finished.

Oh well, this is all preliminary, and if nothing else she looks nice. ;)

[Jim Dunn]

Heh Tom,

It's a very pretty project even if you have reservations about the size of the blade. Don't beat your self up on small details. Like I said it's a very nice project!

[Louis Bois]

She looks great Tom...even if she's a bit finicky...most of them are:rolleyes:

Look on the bright side, you can always just try it with different blades...less tpi for a faster cut...slightly narrower for smaller areas, etc. There's no limit with the saw kerf blade holding mechanism. Go wild!...and remember, "some like it hot!" :D:eek:

[Keith Christopher]

Ok lets see this baby in action !

[Dave Anderson NH]

You've done a great job. My only suggestionis to go for a coarser blade. I use 8, 12, and 16 tpi depending on what I'm doing. Remember that you're likely going to clean up you cut anyway. No sense beating yourself to death with a blade as fine as a hacksaw.

[Tom LaRussa]

You've done a great job. My only suggestionis to go for a coarser blade. I use 8, 12, and 16 tpi depending on what I'm doing. Remember that you're likely going to clean up you cut anyway. No sense beating yourself to death with a blade as fine as a hacksaw.
Thanks Dave,

I think you're absolutely correct about the coarser blade. Not only that using such a fine tooth pattern takes so much more effort, but it also requires many more strokes of the blade, which means many more chances for the cut to wander just a tiny bit.

So, what to do about it?

Looking around the shop...

Hmm... I don't use this saw much, and the brand is no longer available, so I'll never be able to get parts. (Nice rationalizing, eh? :D )

http://home.earthlink.net/~augieboo/pb1.jpg


Just push the button and the blade comes off...


http://home.earthlink.net/~augieboo/pb2.jpg


Slather on some machinst's dye...

http://home.earthlink.net/~augieboo/pb3.jpg


Scribe lines 1" from each edge...

http://home.earthlink.net/~augieboo/pb4.jpg


Take it over to Mr. Dremel, with a metal cutting blade...

http://home.earthlink.net/~augieboo/pb5.jpg


Chop the ends to length, drill holes in it, then take it to the bench grinder and sander to smooth off the edges...

http://home.earthlink.net/~augieboo/pb6.jpg


http://home.earthlink.net/~augieboo/pb7.jpg


Install the "new" blade in place of the old and Voila!

http://home.earthlink.net/~augieboo/pb8.jpg


Took about 20-25 minutes to make the change and it now cuts like a little chain saw. (I think it looks better too -- better proportions between the blade and frame, but that's secondary.)

:)

[Marc Hills]

Tom:

Nice job on your saw; it's beautiful. I'm impressed you were able to prepare a new blade so quickly. (I'm also impressed you have a spare Ryoba saw just lyin' around, but that's whole other can of canuba wax). I agree the proportions look much better with the second blade.

Not surprising that it cuts much better. How does it track with the new blade?

[Simon Reznick]

Very nice saw. I especially appreciate seeing the process from start to finish since I am interested in building a bow saw also!

I have a question about blades that I think relates to this thread.

Do people who make their own bow/frame saws usually use converted bandsaw blades for this, or are there other sources for better blades that are available?

Furthermore, if bandsaw blades are used, is there a minimum tpi that can be effectively used i.e. could I use a 3 tpi blade for resawing/ripping if I wanted?

Thanks,

Simon.

[Jerry Crawford]

Very nice saw. I especially appreciate seeing the process from start to finish since I am interested in building a bow saw also!

I have a question about blades that I think relates to this thread.

Do people who make their own bow/frame saws usually use converted bandsaw blades for this, or are there other sources for better blades that are available?

Furthermore, if bandsaw blades are used, is there a minimum tpi that can be effectively used i.e. could I use a 3 tpi blade for resawing/ripping if I wanted?

Thanks,

Simon.

Simon, I tried band saw blade sections on both the Frame and Bow saws that I made. I wasn't happy with either attempt because of the "hook" that is ground into the shape of the tooth. The saws did cut but it was a really ragged kerf and took a lot more effort to drag that hook through the work piece that was needed for the kind of control I wanted to achieve. So, I bought a couple of blades from Highland and chopped them shorter to fit my saws and now I'm much happier. The blade I bought for my Frame saw is a German import, 1 1/2" wide and 8 TPI. It's actually a bit wider that the frame is thick but that's not a problem. It tracks very well.

I suggest you chop up a couple of old band saws blades and try them out. Or, if your near a saw shop that makes them up they will sell yo a couple of feet for your experiment. Your experience may be different than mine if you use a non hook-type blade.

At the moment I'm making my third saw in the series which is a variation of Tom's DT saw. I'm going to try band saw blade again as this will be a coping saw & I think I can get non hook type band saw blade about 1/8" wide that will work.