Engraving Leather

[Karen Barber]

Hello All!

I first want to start off by saying this is truly a fantastic site (so much so I am going to be upgrading to contributor).

Okay, so while I was at my local Tandy Leather Outlet recently I was informed by the lady working there that a previous customer, who did laser engraving, informed her the while engraving a maroon/burgundy colored/dyed piece of leather that it "burnt out his laser". She went on to say and I am quoting, "He said that the chromium sulfate in the leather refracted the beam and therefore burnt out the laser." ???

I sent this question along to ULS to see if they have ever heard of this "problem" and the very helpful Darryl said that he didn't think that the "guy" had the correct setup (air assist and appropriate exhaust). I'm thinking the same thing because the leather was NOT metallic or shiny in anyway. It just looks like reddish leather.

In doing some research I have found that leather is either vegetable tanned or chrome tanned and that 90% of leather in the US is Chrome Tanned.

The reason that I bring this up today is because I had a customer stop by with a burgundy leather jacket bible to be engraved.

I know you're all super smart with these kind of "chemical reaction" questions, so any further explaination as to what could/can happen is greatly appreciated.

UPDATE: Heard back from ULS. The chromium sulfate DOES NOT affect the laser in anyway in regards to refracting the beam. It was this man's set up!

[Dan Hintz]

Yeah, that guy needed someone/something to blame other than himself. The leather tanning solution had zero to do with it...

[Mike Null]

I agree. Engraving darker colored leathers can produce unexpected results. Some not too good. The other thing is that colored leathers tend to be thinner so it's better to engrave with a couple of passes at lower power than to just blast it.

The old tan cowhide engraves as well as any material I've found.

[Joe De Medeiros]

I engrave tons of leather, and I get my leather at the local Tandy, and I've never had a problem, it does stink, so you need to vent outside or use a charcoal scrubber. It's one of the reasons I bought the engraver in the first place.

[James E Baker]

When I was attending training workshops in Ontario with the ULS distributors, a couple of the other students were from a company in Nova Scotia that specialized in leather goods for Nova Scotia's thriving Scottish/Highland Games market (www dot landmhighland dot com).

They do a lot of custom leather etching with their LASER.

[Viktor Voroncov]

I did a lot of leather engraving and can say that on artificial leather engraving almost always perfect, but on real leather :( sometime you can be very dissapointed with results.

[Frank Corker]

I think whoever it was that said that the laser was damaged by engraving leather have their facts wrong. There have been people engraving leather for years without problems and I suspect what might have happened was that their laser just happened to blow out when they were doing a leather piece and found themselves an easy excuse for it dying.

[Viktor Voroncov]

Agree with you Frank, but when you engrave natural leather SMELL IS UNBELIEVABLE :(

[Gary and Jessica Houghton]

Is that burnt hair? - No it's just engraved leather!

I have engraved leather and still do. I have over 100 pieces to do currently. All of the pieces I do are raw leather, acid washed, dyed, or hide (fur still on). Never had a problem! The only problem I have is the stench and the cleanup with the hide. Fur goes everywhere!

I'm including two pictures of some of the leather I have done.

[Lee DeRaud]

...on artificial leather engraving almost always perfect...The question that brings to my mind is, what exactly is "artificial leather" made of? It would not surprise me a bit if PVC showed up in the ingredient list.

[Viktor Voroncov]

I think artificial leather do not contain PVC:
1) November-December here is diary engraving season. Sometimes customers engrave 500 pcs per day and there is no effect of rust on laser metal parts.
2) Smell after engraving is not same like after PVC engraving

[Mark Winlund]

The question that brings to my mind is, what exactly is "artificial leather" made of? It would not surprise me a bit if PVC showed up in the ingredient list.

It comes from the skin of the Nauga..... Surely you've heard of Naugahyde?

http://www.snopes.com/business/market/nauga.asp


Mark

[Lee DeRaud]

I think artificial leather do not contain PVC:
1) November-December here is diary engraving season. Sometimes customers engrave 500 pcs per day and there is no effect of rust on laser metal parts.
2) Smell after engraving is not same like after PVC engravingA quick google on "artificial leather pvc" reveals that some types do in fact contain PVC.
And we have the usual problem that most of the common sources for artificial leather don't/can't/won't provide MSDS info.

[Lee DeRaud]

It comes from the skin of the Nauga..... Surely you've heard of Naugahyde?So it's not enough we have to worry about PVC, now we have to deal with an endangered species? :p

("It's a joke, I say, it's a joke, son." - Foghorn Leghorn)

[Bill Cunningham]

It comes from the skin of the Nauga..... Surely you've heard of Naugahyde?

http://www.snopes.com/business/market/nauga.asp
Mark

Yes, although it's not half the quality of Corinthian leather (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corinthian_leather). But I have to admit, their a heck of a lot easier to catch than a Wild Scottish Haggis!

[AL Ursich]

It comes from the skin of the Nauga..... Surely you've heard of Naugahyde?

http://www.snopes.com/business/market/nauga.asp


Mark

I am a retired NAVY Chief and in my early years in the Navy before the Internet and SNOPES... I could never get the answer as to how many "Nauga's" it took to make a Square Yard or Nauga Hide.... Widely use on many Navy Ships for it's BUTT GRIPPING abilities..... In heavy seas they even had Nauga Hide Mess Decks Table Covers to keep the food trays from sliding.....

I will sleep well tonight knowing that no little "Nauga's" were sacrificed in the name of the NAVY....:eek::eek::eek:

AL

FCC(SW) Retired:D

[Terry Swift]

:)I have a customer that wants me to engrave a recess for inlaying an acrylic backing for a name badge on some thick leather - almost 1/4" thick.

What kind of settings for a 35 watt ULS would be appropriate - as I know multiple passes will be needed to not burn the whole piece? I'll also be running the front side for his business card info and logo.

[Frank Corker]

Well that's ruined my up and coming Nauga hunting trip! Next you will be me that the Spagetti tree hunt is also going to be a waste of time.

[Mike Null]

Terry

I have succeeded in "frying" leather to the extent that it became brittle and broke like plastic. (one of the reasons I don't like to engrave the thin stuff)

Use several passes at moderate power.

[Dan Hintz]

Frank,

There's always Snipes... tricky little buggers...

[Lee DeRaud]

There's always Snipes... tricky little buggers...Sewing snipe hides together is too labor-intensive: they're barely big enough to make a keychain fob.

Not to mention having to pluck them first.

[AL Ursich]

Frank...... Corduroy pillows are making headlines!

Took me a moment to get it.....:D Good One...

AL

[Gary and Jessica Houghton]

:)I have a customer that wants me to engrave a recess for inlaying an acrylic backing for a name badge on some thick leather - almost 1/4" thick.

What kind of settings for a 35 watt ULS would be appropriate - as I know multiple passes will be needed to not burn the whole piece? I'll also be running the front side for his business card info and logo.
Terry, I've never tried that thick before, but when I want a deep etch I use 40s/90p/600dpi and etch bottom to top. I've had pretty good luck with that.

[Andrea Weissenseel]

@Viktor, many artificial leathers contain PVC

Terry, a deep engraving like that I would do in multiple passes. What kind of leather is that thick - elephant ? :D

Settings vary much on the leather itself. I just recently engraved 2 sorts of leather, one had a very smooth surface the other one rather grained - they needed different settings.

Cheers, Andrea

[Dan Hintz]

Andrea,

It comes from a cow that has had insults thrown at him his entire life ;)

[Joe De Medeiros]

@Viktor, many artificial leathers contain PVC

Terry, a deep engraving like that I would do in multiple passes. What kind of leather is that thick - elephant ? :D

Settings vary much on the leather itself. I just recently engraved 2 sorts of leather, one had a very smooth surface the other one rather grained - they needed different settings.

Cheers, Andrea

16oz vegi-tan leather is 1/4" think, I use it all the time, it's most often used for harness and saddles tack, but lots of people use it for belts and guitar straps, which are great for engraving :D

[Lee DeRaud]

What kind of leather is that thick - elephant ? :D Elephant skin averages about 1" thick.
(Just slightly thinner than Keith Richards'. :eek:)

[Andrea Weissenseel]

*lol* or an elephant wearing a elephant leather coat, coated with elephant leather :D

Dan's insulted-cow leather is not bad either (those are probably the ones the live near by the spaghetti trees) Wasn't there a song with that title "And all that I can see is just another spaghetti tree" hm ???

[Lee DeRaud]

Wasn't there a song with that title "And all that I can see is just another spaghetti tree" hm ???If it isn't a Jimmy Buffett tune, it oughta be.:cool:

[Frank Corker]

I've got a lovely elephant hide belt which my brother bought me last time when I was visiting my home country of Zimbabwe. Very nice and suprisingly supple although over the last few years it seems to be getting tighter around my waist..... can't understand why it should do that. It also seems to have caused some distortion to all the trousers I have, they all seem to have had shrinkage around the midrift. Very odd.

[Dan Hintz]

Probably the sweat from all of the hard work you do... it shrinks elephant skin. Watch their trunks... every time they reach out to take a drink of water, their trunk shrinks back to their mouths.

[Andrea Weissenseel]

It also seems to have caused some distortion to all the trousers I have, they all seem to have had shrinkage around the midrift. Very odd.

oh oh, they didn't tell you that this is gonna happen ? That's how elephant skin interacts with trousers.


Watch their trunks... every time they reach out to take a drink of water, their trunk shrinks back to their mouths.

elephants always wonder how menkind survives :)

[John Barton]

:)I have a customer that wants me to engrave a recess for inlaying an acrylic backing for a name badge on some thick leather - almost 1/4" thick.

What kind of settings for a 35 watt ULS would be appropriate - as I know multiple passes will be needed to not burn the whole piece? I'll also be running the front side for his business card info and logo.

I do a lot of leather jbcases.com

It's not easy to make inlay pockets deep into leather. You will have to engrave it as a solid block. The leather will char badly and get dry and brittle.

A better way to go would be to use thinner leather and cut a window and then glue up layers behind it to make the pocket. Then you can burnish the edges of the layers so that they look like one piece.

[John Barton]

Hello All!

I first want to start off by saying this is truly a fantastic site (so much so I am going to be upgrading to contributor).

Okay, so while I was at my local Tandy Leather Outlet recently I was informed by the lady working there that a previous customer, who did laser engraving, informed her the while engraving a maroon/burgundy colored/dyed piece of leather that it "burnt out his laser". She went on to say and I am quoting, "He said that the chromium sulfate in the leather refracted the beam and therefore burnt out the laser." ???

I sent this question along to ULS to see if they have ever heard of this "problem" and the very helpful Darryl said that he didn't think that the "guy" had the correct setup (air assist and appropriate exhaust). I'm thinking the same thing because the leather was NOT metallic or shiny in anyway. It just looks like reddish leather.

In doing some research I have found that leather is either vegetable tanned or chrome tanned and that 90% of leather in the US is Chrome Tanned.

The reason that I bring this up today is because I had a customer stop by with a burgundy leather jacket bible to be engraved.

I know you're all super smart with these kind of "chemical reaction" questions, so any further explaination as to what could/can happen is greatly appreciated.

UPDATE: Heard back from ULS. The chromium sulfate DOES NOT affect the laser in anyway in regards to refracting the beam. It was this man's set up!

I had some chrome tanned leather that would not cut no matter what on our 80 watt machine. All of our other leather would cut easily but not this stuff. I don't know why.

When we got our new 100 watt machine it cuts right through it.

Probably the chromium sulfate in my head that was the problem. I so very much doubt that the beam would reflect enough (or at all) from cutting any type of leather to do any damage. I could MAYBE see the smoke gumming up the works but that's why the air assist is there.

We cut leather all day every day.

[Bill Cunningham]

This is one of the deepest I have done, and it did char even with multiple passes..It was done for a movie prop, and they just wanted the name bold, and dark enough to see in one short scene.

[Terry Swift]

Is that burnt hair? - No it's just engraved leather!

I have engraved leather and still do. I have over 100 pieces to do currently. All of the pieces I do are raw leather, acid washed, dyed, or hide (fur still on). Never had a problem! The only problem I have is the stench and the cleanup with the hide. Fur goes everywhere!

I'm including two pictures of some of the leather I have done.

Gary - nice. I'm starting to do some leather; but not exactly sure on how to keep the upper parts of the leather from smoke / residue build-up while engraving. I've used ULS's settings for Leather and I didn't get the greatest results. Of course being new to lasering leather - I'm trying to figure out the results part.

Tandy is right here in Ft. Worth (at least warehousing, but large plant too), so I've got a nice store locally as well. The people there are great and very helpful - although not in the lasering side of it. I've got few orders for Bible Covers, etc that they would like photo's on them - how hard is that to get results like your church building picture?

[Steve Clarkson]

Gary.....very impressive! Do you make that book cover yourself or do you buy it? I get alot of people asking for book covers.

[Bruce Dash]

I'm somewhat new to laser engraving. My wife and I have started a home laser engraving business with my son and we have been asked by one of the local artist if we could take some of her work and engrave it on leather. I've done some reading and this seems very possible. My first question is where to purchase sheets of leather and which type of leather is best suited for my needs.

[David Somers]

Just a side note on Naugahyde.

I used to live in Connecticut when I was a kid, and one of my grandma's pals had a husband who was a VP for Armstrong Rubber and worked at the Naugahyde plant in Naugatuk Connecticut. We would go up as kids to watch the vast herds of Naugas on their annual migration across the Naugatuck River on their way to Lake Winnemaug and then over to Watertown. Needless to say, the river suffered some from this. Some complained it was effluent from the pleather plant, but we knew it was effluent from the migrating Nauga's. Or at least that is what her husband told us. (by pleather plant I was referring to the plastic leather manufacturing facility.....not to be confused with the plants you can buy in kmart whose leaves are made of plastics.)

Anyway.....eventually all the wild Naugas were done in and the remaining herds were brought to Wisconsin where Naugahyde is manufactured today if I remember correctly.

All of this is a leadup to noting that of the plastic leather products (collectively called pleather), Naugahyde is listed as containing PVC. But when I looked up its MSDS sheets I saw a brief mention of HCL as an off gasing product during heating but no warnings under combustion products other than it may product respiratory irritants. The MSDS was pretty benign otherwise.

If I were going to use actual Naugahyde I personally would want to check with the manufacturer (US Rubber I believe) to verify the PVC issue and get a current MSDS. That business was sold several times since I was a kid and as it has been bought and sold its formula may have changed. Beside that I would want to check with PETA (the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.....not the makers of that pocket bread you find in middle eastern dishes) to be sure I wouldn't be haunted by the ghost of Rue McClenahan or picketed by Paul McCartney or Justin Bieber or some other famous PETA activist.

Also, there are a modest number of pleather manufacturers now, and I assume they each have a different formulation for their product. Don't assume those black skin tight pleather jeans you are wearing are Naugahyde. Though Naugahyde is still thought well of as a product.

A little tidbit of info to amuse your family at meal time tonight. The US Navy used to use Naugahyde for seat covers all over ships because it had great non skid properties. So you can thank the town of Naugatuck for all those vinyl burns you used to get on the backs of your thighs on hot days when you wore shorts in the family car, and for the fact you had to almost be peeled off the seats when you were hot and sweaty.

And for those of you wondering....yes.....My grandma's friend did have clear PVC covers for all her furniture; the type that had those little raised bubbles for texture? I used to love playing with those when we visited. I pushed on them all so they became innies rather than outies. My grandma's friend was not pleased by that and would faithfully make them outies again when we left, much to my delight when we returned. Which seemed to happen less and less over time for some unknown reason. Hmmmm.

<grin>

Dave
PS....it is a Friday at the end of a long week. I am getting a bit frizzled, as if you can't tell!)

[David Somers]

Bruce,

You might consider putting your laser brand/model and power in your signature, and also putting at least your State or Country, and perhaps your town in the location entry of your profile. In this case folks may read this who are nearby and can suggest a local source for you. That also helps folks answer other questions more quickly.

Also, if you do a few searches on the forum you will find quite a few discussions about leather, the methods of curing and what works well in a laser, tips and tricks, and if I remember right, a number of posts about sources for leather. I am afraid I don't have any info myself to pass on to you.

Dave

[Michael Hunter]

David - Cl and HCl are the bad bits that comes out of PVC : chlorine and hydrochloric acid, those well known machine and lens eaters.

[David Somers]

Thanks Michael!

I did realize that, but was curious this particular MSDS was so .... well .... blase' about them? And really didnt get into them at all as hazards other than as "respiratory irritants." The tone was very different than I have seen on other PVC products which were quite clear and explicit about the hazards of PVC under certain conditions.

Dave

[Bert Kemp]

Bruce
Veg Tan leather engraves nicely , Tandy, and leather Unlimited are 2 suppliers I use. Mostly Tandy cause I live close to an outlet. I wait for the sales then run down early to try and get the best pieces :D

[Bruce Dash]

David,
thanks, been meaning to do that so there's no time like the preset. Thanks for the reminder.

[Chris DeGerolamo]

The thickest leather I've cut is a 9/10 oz and best results were had by doing a quick soak in warm water to; A. flatten out the hide; and B. reduce char or "frying" the leather as it was gently stated earlier.

[Steven Gray]

I must be weird because I like the smell of burning leather. To me it smells like steak cooking. Mmmmmm.

[Bert Kemp]

yep your weird:rolleyes:

[Bill Cunningham]

The only caveat to etching some leathers, is with Black Leather. I usually warn my customers that I have had black leather turn everything from bright white, to so dark you have trouble seeing it. Black leather is a complete crap shoot as far as etch colour is concerned, and you will never know what the etch colour will be until the beam hits it. It's best to find a spot, or a insert (if it's a wallet for example) and do a test spot.

[ANDY TURBYFILL]

Since I make leather belts for a living, I bought my laser engraver mainly for engraving leather. I haven't had any problem at all. Here's a picture of a new kid's belt and buckle set I'm doing. Natural vegetable leather does engrave wonderfully.

302671

[Keith Outten]

Andy,

Thats a very nice belt...beautiful work.
And welcome to The Creek.
.