Raised Panel Question

[Glenn Vaughn]

One of the pieces of the cabinet project we are doing is a "mormon pantry" (38" wide by 65" tall). My wife insisted on only 2 doors and only 2 panels per door. So I ended up with doors 18 3/8 X 65 9/16 with 3 rails. Needless to say one door failed within a week of use - the rails separated from the stile with the hinges. The doors were assembled using glue and dowels - it looks like we did not have sufficient glue and have reassembled with plenty of glue.

The construction was traditional - stiles full length of the door and rails between the stiles. My question is; is there any reason why the rails could not be the full width of the door? This would reduce the tendency of the joint to flex at the junction of the rail and stile.

If we have to re-frame the doors, what would be a better way to strengthen the rail/stile joint? I know screws are a possibility but with 3" stiles it would take long screws and possibly deep holes to use them. One of the feature of the project that we are most proud of is the fact that we have used no nails or screws (except of hardware mounting).

[Ben Davis]

No reason what-so-ever that the rails can not be the full door width. A simple bridle joint would work very well.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Glenn, for larger doors I use M&T construction, however the bridle joint as suggested in the previous post by Ben is even stronger.

Regards, Rod.

[Lee Schierer]

Easier to cut than a bridle joint and nearly as strong is a simple lap joint. I've used lap joints on many cabinet doors.

[Michael MacDonald]

how long were the dowels? longer might help.

[Glenn Vaughn]

how long were the dowels? longer might help.

Drilled for 1 1/2" - routed then used 1" - probably a poor choice for the large doors. I am a rank beginner at doing this; but I am learning.

[Chris Friesen]

1" dowels is definitely too small. For large doors like that I'd either use a stronger corner joint (lap/bridle/M&T are all good) or else use a plywood panel and glue it into the groove. The glued plywood panel would be strongest.

[Tom McMahon]

The traditional joint for raised panel doors was and is the mortise and tenon. Pegged thru mortises will last hundreds of years. The dowel joint came into use after the industrial revolution [1830s] as a cheaper faster way to join wood in a factory production system. It is not an improvement of the mortise and tenon. Panels in doors need to float because of the difference in the rate of expansion between the panels and the frame, enough room needs to be given for the panel to expand with out tearing the door apart. Glueing a panel even plywood will cause the door to eventually to fail. A small section of the panel on the top and bottom center can be glued to keep the panel from moving but not for strength.

[james bell]

I built basically the same doors 20 years ago - 18" x 72" with just one raised panel and they have held up without problem as far as construction.

Not having a jointer back then, a couple of my stiles warped a little (maybe after construction, too far back to guess), but nothing came apart. My solution for the warping was to use strong magnetic catches which worked.

One another set of doors for a large built-in storage unit which are 24" x 72" with 1/4" plywood for the single panel and 2" rails/stiles. Two inch because my wife wanted it to look more like antique furniture vs cabinet doors. Anyway, with the thin rails and plywood, one door wanted to warp, so I put a full length mirror on the back which fixed the problem.

[Glenn Vaughn]

I really appreciate the responses. As I said earlier, I am a rank beginner.

Both mortise and tenon and bridle joints are beyond my current abilities - especially on rails and stiles. I cannot picture how the cope can be done with either joint.

The problem I encountered with the door was partially design flaw, partially assembly error and partially the wife's fault (though I won't tell her that).

Longer dowels would have helped quite a bit.

More agressive application of glue would have helped even more - the failure was the glue not the wood. We are using Titebond III but it appears that there was very little glue on the joint.

The wife's error relaqtes to the design implementation; The doors are on a wide/tall/deep pantry with pull-out shelves (actuall more like shallow drawers. When open, the doors have the edges over the cabinet opening. The drawer slides are mounted on spacers to allow the slides to clear the door - turns out the spaces should have been a bit thicker since several of the drawers just hit the door - sometimes. The wife got in the habit of pushing the door that gets hit farther than the hinge allows; this stressed the joint on the stile that has the hinges.

The repair was simply apply a heavy application of glue and clamp overnight. The joint seems to be much stronger than it was. My wife also understands that the door has to be pushed aside gently if the drawer hits.

[Chris Friesen]

Both mortise and tenon and bridle joints are beyond my current abilities - especially on rails and stiles. I cannot picture how the cope can be done with either joint.
<snip>
The wife got in the habit of pushing the door that gets hit farther than the hinge allows; this stressed the joint on the stile that has the hinges.

First...mortise and tenon and bridle joints are within your abilities--they'll just take a while. A mortise can be drilled out with a hand drill and pared with a chisel. Bridle joints can be done on a tablesaw or bandsaw. In both cases the male end can be cut oversized and and pared/rasped/sanded to fit.

As for the cope, you basically don't cope the joint--the profiled part gets mitered. The pic below has a simple roundover, but the principle is the same.

http://swingleydev.com/woodworking/images/dvd_cabinet/door_mortise_and_tenon_lg.jpg

Lastly, you can get hinges that open much wider than normal ones (170 degrees or so). These are often used for pantries so that the drawers can clear the doors. You might consider replacing your existing ones.

[Glenn Vaughn]

Lastly, you can get hinges that open much wider than normal ones (170 degrees or so). These are often used for pantries so that the drawers can clear the doors. You might consider replacing your existing ones.

Part of the reason for the hinges I chose was placement of the pantry - the refridgerator is up agasinst it.

[Joe Chritz]

I expect that the over opening of the door is the culprit. I don't see any reason that a regular stile/rail joint won't work in that application. The flexing by swinging it out to far will put a long of force on that joint.

That said, I would definately go with something extra strong just for insurance. Any of the above would work fine.

There are some differing opinions on if you can glue in sheet stock panels (MDF or ply). Obviously it isn't an option in your case but lots of people do it regularly without failure, myself included.

Joe