color filling partical board plaques

[George McGinnis]

Can someone tell me if particale board plaques can be color filled and if so what is the best way to do this?
Thanks to all

[Gary Hair]

George,
You can color fill those plaques but they are covered with vinyl and you don't want to laser vinyl. If you do it anyway, you can either mask and fill with spray or brush on acrylic paint.

Gary

[Martin Boekers]

George,
You can color fill those plaques but they are covered with vinyl and you don't want to laser vinyl. If you do it anyway, you can either mask and fill with spray or brush on acrylic paint.

Gary


One of my favorite plaques is JDS Hi-Gloss Mahoghany, so I went back to the catalog to see if is said laserable, nope not laserable.

I've been doing these for awhile, about 20 a month will a gold fill, they look great. Sooooo... is this something I should avoid?


Marty

[Mike Null]

Marty

There is no reason not to do them. It's just particle board under the veneer.

[Martin Boekers]

That's good they are a nice looking plaque that is reasonably priced.

Thanks!

[Gary Hair]

Marty

There is no reason not to do them. It's just particle board under the veneer.

IF they are veneer then it's ok but I haven't seen a particle board plaque that wasn't covered with vinyl - definately NOT ok to laser.

Gary

[Terry Swift]

Gary,

Why are plain particle board plaques not okay to laser? I've not read or heard that they were on the "Not To Laser" list like PVC. :confused:

I don't do particle board plaques anyway - as I like to stick with the real thing; but in case I needed to go a little cheaper for a customer.

Acrylic paints or even lithochrome (expensive) are great for filling in. LaserBits sells Fill Paint as well. I've not had the best luck with it as I have had with good acrylic paint. :(

[Gary Hair]

Why are plain particle board plaques not okay to laser? I've not read or heard that they were on the "Not To Laser" list like PVC. :confused:

If you mean lumber yard particle board cut into plaques then there is no problem. If you mean the cheap particle board plaques that have "simulated wood grain", then they are covered with PVC. It's not the plaque, it's the covering.

I wouldn't want to breathe the fumes from particle board, or mdf for that matter, but neither one are much worse than plain wood, it's just the adhesive that makes them a bit nastier than wood.

Gary

[Mark Winlund]

Particle board really says to the recipient: You aren't worth real wood in your award, we'll give you mashed sawdust instead. The first time you drop it, you will really see what we thought of you!

Mark (no particle board in 35 years... not one.)

[Mike Null]

Gary

I'm surprised you haven't tried these HGM plaques (I sold over 1000 last year) or, for that matter, the piano finished plaques which I think are also particle board.

Get a sample or two of the HGM's they are fantastic.

I went for 10 years without selling the vinyl covered particle board then it came down to keeping a good school account or losing them.

[Martin Boekers]

Particle board really says to the recipient: You aren't worth real wood in your award, we'll give you mashed sawdust instead. The first time you drop it, you will really see what we thought of you!

Mark (no particle board in 35 years... not one.)

Then the same could be said for crystal and acrylic.

I guess then a dented wood plaque or broken crystal would make them
feel better when the drop it. The nerve to drop a plaque I labored over!:p

The problem I'm sure we all face, is that not everyone has budget for
full wood plaques, crystal or silver plated cups. I have made some very nice awards from composites
and as Mike said the HGM from JDS is really nice. I've slacked back on those because of availabilty issues.

I have a few clients that feel that way about plates, "these aren't engraved, they are just painted"
Sometimes it's all about presieved value and the presentation. I'm sure many many of the recognitions never
make it to a wall, but live their life in a closet, basement or attic:D


Marty

[David Takes]

The simulated wood and marble plaques that JDS sells is a polyethylene foil, not a vinyl. They stated on the phone that their marble-look plaques are not laserable because the foil tends to bubble and can lose its adhesion along the edge of the engraved areas.

[Ross Moshinsky]

We wouldn't be able to stay in business with out particle board plaques. I'd say 50% of our plaque business is particle board plaques.

Hardwood plaque is somewhere in the $6-10 neighborhood typically. Another $6-8 for a nice plate. That's roughly $15. Turning around and selling that for $40-50 results in no profit. I'd say I spend close to 15-30 minutes with a walk in customer on a plaque. Although it might only be a $50 plaque, it means a lot to them and they take up A LOT of time. Once they finally leave, it takes another 20 minutes to actually sit down, engrave, and assemble the plaque. All said and done, although it only cost me $15 for the plaque, I spent almost an hour of time on the job.

Again, if I only sold hardwood, I'd be out of business. I charge $40-50 for a HGM or laminate plaque with a brass coated steel plate with a custom engraved boarder. My total cost is in the $5 neighborhood. At that cost structure, it is worth dealing with walk-ins.

I have to be honest, I'm surprised so many people do color filling. I honestly believe it is one of the least cost effective methods of doing a wood plaque. I do like the look of them, but I don't see how it's cost effective unless you dramatically increase the engraving price. I can cut a piece of black brass, engrave a vector boarder and do all the text before you get half way done with engraving directly into the wood & mask. When you consider then you have to paint fill after that, I just don't see the profit.

[David Takes]

Ross,

It's quite simple, you charge more for a paint-filled plaque.

[Martin Boekers]

Ross,

I agree on the filled plaques, I do produce them as certain clients want them, but the are a headache.

Some stuff is easier to do than others, my pricing doesn't always reflect how costly or difficult a job may be. Again I say percieved value is a big
factor.

I do show a larger variety of options as well as custom work at many price points. This gives the client and idea of what I can accomplish. It makes the
show room a bit nicer than just the standard things everone has.

The next part is selling... when I find out what they like or need then I can "guide" them through the process. I have had some clients that just
can't make up their minds and would talked and wander all day if I let them.

That's where the selling and time management comes in, to work with your customer
to quickly come to a resolution. Not always easy, as I to have had clients take up a half hour for a $10 plate.


Marty

[Mark Winlund]

I guess my point in ll of this is that it is a slippery slope. When you start using particle board, then you start to think about cardboard.... or as the forum member said, brass plated steel.


“There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey.”(John Ruskin)



I would like to think that I sell the best that can be made rather than the cheapest. In 35 years, I have done very well adhering to this policy. True, times are hard, and work is hard to come by. Still, I am proud of what I do, and find it easier to sell quality than low price. The problem with particle board and brass plated steel is that it can look beautiful to the uninformed customer.... until it gets dropped on a corner, or the lettering starts to rust.

We make a lot of awards for a university. The people that get these awards have spent a lot of their life working in their fields before they get one of these awards. It means a great deal to them to get one, often at a banquet attended by hundreds of their contemporaries. I would be ashamed to provide an award that I knew was poor quality, just to save 5 or 10 dollars on materials.

Mark

[George McGinnis]

I use alot of the particle board plaques from JDS but have never color filled any of them. I have used shoe polish wax and it works great. I have a customer that wanted red text on a plaque and I tried masking it with transfer tape then lasering through and spray painting. That didnt work out so well. Just looking for a different way to do it.

[Martin Boekers]

I guess my point in ll of this is that it is a slippery slope. When you start using particle board, then you start to think about cardboard.... or as the forum member said, brass plated steel.
Mark

I think there is a time and a place for everything, yes some events do and require the best that we can provide. If the budget allows it.

I still remember the cheap little trophy I got for winning a pinewood derby, not for the fastest car but the one that was so obiviously built
just by my self. It was my first trophy, no it wasn't an R.S Owens original
but that was ok!

I have watched scouts recieve a cheap cast medals that I embellished, and they were so proud.

These can go on and on, I hate to say it but if I had to charge them $50 are more just to give a "higher quality" product for this type of event they may have only recieved pat on the back or a hand shake.

I have created many things from $1.00 item to over $5000.00.
This I feel is part of my job to do the best we can with what resources.
are available.

Sure I would like to drive a Lexus, have hand made solid wood furniture,
prime beef, single malt scotch and Cuban cigars, but until I can afford them and/or justify them I enjoy what I can afford. (ok I do get single malt scotch from time to time.;)).

So I feel yes, there is times when a smaller cheaper product is
the best choice for the event. And yes there may come a day that
cardboard will be the best choice and I'll use it. I'll use it becuase it is the best choice
and not neccessarily just to save the client money or making a larger mark up
on it and saying it's just as good.....

How many here use a rotary engraver for the bulk of there work?



Marty

[Ross Moshinsky]

Mark Winlund: Who said anything about poor quality? I have some old particle board plaques in my facility from 15-20 years ago. All look in very good condition. Nothing walks out my door crooked, scratched or in less then very very good condition. The raw materials and finishes are completely left up to budget and the customer. I refuse to put myself out of business because my customers can't afford the best. If you really think about it, if the university really cared about their employee, they would cough up some cash to make an award. My costs are my costs. I have to pay my bills. If they can only muster up $50 for a plaque for someone who worked somewhere for 50 years, that is not my fault. $25 more and they get a hardwood plaque with a brass plate in a presentation box. When I buy a hamburger, I don't expect fillet.

I also don't necessarily agree with the idea that higher quality materials = longevity. I can hand out a $150 Tropar multi plate plaque and get it back in a couple of years looking terrible. I know that isn't a result of "the elements" but more so the customer put it somewhere that resulted in abuse. Dropping, kicking, throwing, scratching, or anything else is not my responsibility.

George McGinnis: It's not easy doing paint fill. The real trick is getting the right mask. I've used several different kinds and had mixed results. The next one on my list is using Green painters tape. It is supposed to stick the best and not result in bleeding or peeling. The other trick is to paint with a light hand. I'm AWFUL at painting with a light hand, but if you have enough patience, do a lot of very light coats. The other thing would be to get a air brush setup which is a lot better than a can of Rustoleum. If they really want red, offer red brass with black letters. It's a nice alternative. Otherwise, they are going to have to spend more for a better board in order to get red paint filled letters.

Martin Boekers: I agree with just about everything you said.

[Todd Suire]

I guess my point in ll of this is that it is a slippery slope. When you start using particle board, then you start to think about cardboard.... or as the forum member said, brass plated steel.


“There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey.”(John Ruskin)



I would like to think that I sell the best that can be made rather than the cheapest. In 35 years, I have done very well adhering to this policy. True, times are hard, and work is hard to come by. Still, I am proud of what I do, and find it easier to sell quality than low price. The problem with particle board and brass plated steel is that it can look beautiful to the uninformed customer.... until it gets dropped on a corner, or the lettering starts to rust.

We make a lot of awards for a university. The people that get these awards have spent a lot of their life working in their fields before they get one of these awards. It means a great deal to them to get one, often at a banquet attended by hundreds of their contemporaries. I would be ashamed to provide an award that I knew was poor quality, just to save 5 or 10 dollars on materials.

Mark
Mark,

How do you normally decorate your solid wood plaques? Like you, I strive to sell a quality product that sets my work apart. However, so far all I've really done are plaque plates on wood. I'm still learning a lot about the business.

[Mike Null]

Back to my school customer. The teacher in charge of buying insisted, over my objections, that they continue with the plaques they had been using. These were the cheapest particle board with diamond dragged brushed brass aluminum plates.

They weren't happy with the engraver they used but would not switch to better alternatives on materials.

[Mark Winlund]

Mark,

How do you normally decorate your solid wood plaques? Like you, I strive to sell a quality product that sets my work apart. However, so far all I've really done are plaque plates on wood. I'm still learning a lot about the business.


Todd... up until recently, 90% of our plaque work has been sublimated text and logos on Ultracoat plates. Made in england, ultracoat (sold here by Novachrome) is by far and away the best looking sublimation substrate.

We always use a solid wood plaque. When Quality woods in Oklahoma went bankrupt, we switched to Big Sky Woodcrafters.

Recently, due to the bad economy, our customers (customer?) have switched to lasered Alder plaques. No metal or screws at all. We actually make a higher profit per hour on these because of the labor savings.

For an upgrade in quality, we can provide routed logos and text using a tabletop CNC router. The software is Aspire by Vectrix. This really takes a lot of time to do, so the price starts to add up.

My customers know that I will not give them poor quality awards. Most of our business is from customers we have had for decades. The current depression has hit everyone hard. They are trying to save wherever they can. There are empty buildings all over town. The newspaper is making a fortune publishing foreclosure notices. Like everyone else, I am just trying to survive. I won't do it by selling low quality garbage.

Regards,

Mark (the dinosaur, almost extinct)

[Michael Hunter]

An alternative take on Mark's stance on only using "real" wood -

For several years I engraved the (real) wooden bases for a girl who made fabulous glass awards.
On one big order two of the bases came back to be re-done on new bits of wood. When I asked why, she said that her customer had rejected them "because they had knots in them"!
So much for natural materials ....


My own pet hate is of "fake" materials. I'd be happy to engrave MDF, but NOT if it was made to look like mahogany, however realistic it might be.
Similarly, if I use plywood, I try to make a feature of the edges so everyone knows what it is.

[Mark Winlund]

An alternative take on Mark's stance on only using "real" wood -

For several years I engraved the (real) wooden bases for a girl who made fabulous glass awards.
On one big order two of the bases came back to be re-done on new bits of wood. When I asked why, she said that her customer had rejected them "because they had knots in them"!
So much for natural materials ....


My own pet hate is of "fake" materials. I'd be happy to engrave MDF, but NOT if it was made to look like mahogany, however realistic it might be.
Similarly, if I use plywood, I try to make a feature of the edges so everyone knows what it is.

My point exactly. Your customer thought that visible knots were a sign of poor quality. Imagine what they would think if they knew that perfect looking wood plaque with no knots was sawdust covered with printed vinyl.

Mark

[Mike Null]

The mahogany particle board is that we're discussing is very well covered with mahogany veneer. It's perfectly good quality.

[Michael Hunter]

Mark - I didn't make clear that her selling point (USP) is that her awards are "natural" and that part of the beauty is that no two are identical.

[Martin Boekers]

I have a handful of clients that don't like the way that solid wood plaques
are glued together pieces and sometimes the engraving changes with the grain.

I usually show them the plaque I will be using and if they have any issues
I explain that wood is organic and will have imperfections. The glueing panels helps keep warpage to minimum and larger full size solid planks are
more expensive. If they are dead set on it I have a wood shop here, but when I quote them the cost they go back to stock items.

Some want to go through all my stock to pick the best ones, obviously I can't do that. I thought about offering that to the few that have issues
as a premium service will an additional fee.

How do others handle this.

I just finished a handful of composite plaques yesterday that the client
was delighted with! After checking local shops that were pushing full wood,
they were afraid that they wouldn't be able to have recognitions to give
as their budget didn't fit that pricing structure. They came out really nice.
win win situation! I do explain the differences in quality with the product when I consult with them on their project.


Marty