Contemplating a laser

[Neville Stewart]

Found a 45w 2008 ( new tube) for 15k, and thought about buying it. I have a Shopbot and see the blending of the two. Wondering what a 45w would cut in terms of acrylic, and etching etc. Low use machine in excellent condition apparently, Havent compared it against others in terms of power & price. Could I ask what your thoughts might be? thanks Dubliner Meant to say Epilog 24 16 x 12 depth, and a rotary fixture.

[Dan Hintz]

Can you be sure it's a new tube? Is it the Mini or the Helix? If it's the Mini, it doesn't sound like a very sweet deal... I would expect to pay about that for a new machine with warranty. If it's the Helix, the price is so-so...

[Larry Bratton]

You can probably get through 1/2" acrylic but it will be painfully slow. Quarter and 1/8" no problem. Trying to figure out though which machine is it exactly. I don't see an Epilog with a 16x12 table size. A Mini 24 is 24"x12" and a Helix is 24" x 18". Would be a good compliment to a Shopbot for sure.

[Scott Shepherd]

What business are you in? What are you plans or direction you'd like to go?

Personally, I think a vinyl plotter goes with a router far better than a laser. I have a laser, vinyl plotter, and a router, and it's really rare that I take something off the router and put it in the laser and it's even rarer (is that a word?) to take something off the laser and put it on the router.

However, I take work off the router and the laser and go to the vinyl plotter.

Plus it's about $13,000 cheaper than your used laser.

Just my opinion.

[Neville Stewart]

Heres the details - 2008 45 Watt Helix Epilog Laser. The laser tube is brand new as of 7/15/10 and comes with a rotary motor for etching glassware. a $995 value

Legend Helix 24 Laser - CO2 Laser Systems for Engraving and Cutting Work Area
24" x 18" (610 x 457 mm)

[Dan Hintz]

That's a decent price, then...

[Gary Hair]

You need to be careful who you buy it from. If it's just "joe blow" then you have no support or recourse for a bad machine. If it's someone like Roy Brewer then you have more support than you could possibly imagine. There are a few good companies out there who can sell you a laser and you would be money ahead to stick with them. The machine and its capabilities are important but it's more important who is supporting the machine when things go wrong.

Gary

P.S. I didn't buy my machine from Roy, I learned about him, and every one at Engraving Concepts, a long time after I bought mine. I would move to his territory though if I bought another machine...

[Rodne Gold]

The laser and a CnC router/engraver are a great fit - its not about using both in tandem to work on one particular object , its using both of them to produce a range of objects.
For example if you are in the custom awards business , you can use the router to do stuff the laser cant - like route a thick wood base and cut metal plates and use the laser to cut and engrave an acrylic top piece etc and then assemble the whole for something creative and unique.

What you need to do is ask yourself what direction your business is going in or what direction you want it to go in to justify the expense etc of a laser.
Do you already have a strong base for industrial or custom engraving or do you wish to open this area up ? Who and what are your competiton... ?
What can you do thats going to be better than anyone else in this field?
Being realistic - you have to make a net profit of $7-10k PA out of the machine to justify its cost (net profit - ie you take it home with you!!!)

I can tell you this , I already had an awards/signage/badge business long before my first laser and the laser transformed it - we have multiple overhead engravers and CnC routers and have found that these machines are used VERY much less than the lasers these days (the laser is generally quicker and most engraving is far better quality)
However we adopted laser engraving in the "early" days and had little competiton - I'm not so sure it would be such a no brainer decision these days.

One thing yoiu must be aware of is that cheaper chinese machines which are almost as good and as capable as mainstream are about 1/3rd of the price of your intended purchase - its a little difficult to be competitive with 3x the price mainstream machines against these - especially since a lot of new owners find the entry price no longer a barrier and are scrambling and price cutting to get a part of the engraving pie.

[Scott Shepherd]

Rodney, I'm not suggesting that the laser and CNC don't give you the ability to make a wide range of products, I'm suggesting there's a less expensive route to make money from the beginning. My plotter has paid for itself so many times I can't count it. Not sure I could say that about my laser in the early years of owning it. My router has paid for itself in less than a year as well, again, can't say that about the laser.

If I had to do it all over again, I would have started with a router and then a vinyl plotter, a few other things, and then the laser, if even then.

[Mike Null]

In my case I started with the laser, which still dominates my business mix, but I have added rotary, pantograph, hot stamping, sublimation as necessary.

I just sold my vinyl cutter because I wasn't doing enough to justify it. Different marketing focus I guess.

[Martin Boekers]

I just finished a decent sized project that was vinyl cut, don't have a plotter yet so I borrowed one for the job. Made good money on it!

Client changed one of the designs and had to rely on the laser to kiss cut a new one it worked perfect!

Plotters are cheap and so many out there, it's tough to get into bidding wars, but that being said, projects like the one I just finished do come along and it would be nice to have a plotter in-house! For a couple $$$ I think it's a good investment, just to provide the service.

That little devil on my shoulder says hold off until you can bump it up to a printer/cutter :D


Marty

[Larry Bratton]

I had a 50x100 CNC router before I got the laser. The laser was such a compliment to the router that it allowed me to recover the cost of it in a relatively short time. I sold thousands of dollars of signs fabricated to a point on the router and then added laser cut acrylic letters to them. Due to health and economic issues, I retired the CNC and stayed with the laser, I find it difficult to make a living with just the laser. The vinyl cutter has been a better producer of funds since I took this route. I am no longer in a large metropolitan area and it is very difficult selling output from the laser only.

[Jeanette Brewer]

P.S. I didn't buy my machine from Roy, I learned about him, and every one at Engraving Concepts, a long time after I bought mine. I would move to his territory though if I bought another machine...

Gary,

Thanks for the kind words! We've got plenty of room for you in Texas -- come on down! However, you might want to keep a "Summer Home" up in the northwest since it'll top out around 105 here every day this week. :D

[Neville Stewart]

Well heres a strange turn, today I got the offer of lasering glassware for at least one restaraunt ( they have 3 ) so now I'm thinking it might at least make the first few payments on its own. Is this unit suitable for laser etching glassware and possibly other stuff in the restaraunt? Accordint to Dan Hintz ( congrats on the Stinger, by the way )( I love my cnc's) this is a "fair" price, its on lease/purchase so would I have any wiggle room with the lender if I chose to pay it off or whats the "sense" in continuing the lease? All opinions appreciated & thanks in advance. Dubliner

[Scott Shepherd]

You could sandblast those glasses and get a better look for a lot less money.

Just my opinion.

[Neville Stewart]

I've never made a mask for this task or applied it to possibly 200 glasses so whats the process? and as you can see I'm trying to justify the purchase :-) I could bandsaw all the things I currently make on my cnc too, but thats a better tool for the job. I take it a laser is not for this purpose?

[Gary Hair]

I've never made a mask for this task or applied it to possibly 200 glasses so whats the process? and as you can see I'm trying to justify the purchase :-) I could bandsaw all the things I currently make on my cnc too, but thats a better tool for the job. I take it a laser is not for this purpose?

For 200 glasses I would use photo resist. It's easy to do and gives you all kinds of detail. I would NOT laser glasses, especially not 200! I'm hoping you'll get at least $10.00 each so you'll have about $2,000 to budget. That won't go very far in buying a laser, or making payments on one, but it will get you completely setup to sandblast glasses and have paid-off equipment that you can use for other similar jobs. Figure $800 for a compressor, $200 for a cabinet, $100 for a pressure pot, $200 for a PABlaster nozzle, $150 for dust extractor and connections/tubing, $50 for media - 180 grit SC or AO, $100 for a home-made film exposure unit, $50 for film, $25 for a washout nozzle - you still have $425 for misc stuff I forgot.

You want to buy a laser, and I can understand that completely, but it's not the right tool for this job. Your customer may or may not like lasered glasses but they WILL like sandblasted glasses, guaranteed.

I have a laser, cnc router, sandblasting setup - including a 6' x 8' booth, dye sublimation, etc., and I can honestly tell you that I haven't lasered more than a handful of glasses since I have had the sandblasting equipment.

Just my .02

Gary

edit: if you don't want to venture down the photo-resist path, there are plenty of places that can make it for you, all you have to do is apply and blast.

[Scott Shepherd]

Great post Gary! I agree 100% with you.

You also hit it too, you can buy the mask for very little. Just send them the artwork, they send you the masks and you just blast away. Easy money.

In my opinion, you'll have a superior product for your customer as well. It'll do a lot to build your reputation for producing high end work.

[Neville Stewart]

I just send who the artwork?, I could set up for sand blasting quite easily it seems then. I'll have to look up the "tools" mentioned, and most I can probably get at Harbor Freight, but the others like the nozzle/gun? I'm doing a routing job for the restaraunt so I hadnt intended it to be an ongoing thing, but maybe I should - glasses break! I'm still thinking about the laser, but this may get me the glasses a bit quicker than the laser learning curve. Anr resources for blasting light stuff like this? and thanks all.

[Neville Stewart]

By the way , what would you charge to blast a name onto a glass, $10 added to each glass makes them seem pricey, as I'd guess they buy them for 1 or 2 $ each, yes/no?

[Larry Bratton]

Neville, that might be a problem with a restaurant. Like you said, the glasses get broken and I doubt you can get what you need if they are lasered. They just simply aren't going to pay $10-$12 for a glass. IMO the only way you can accurately price lasered items is to do one and track your time. One dollar a minute is what the standard has been, but who knows what it is right now in this economy.

[Neville Stewart]

Yes I would definitely agree Larry, I'm thinking sandblasting will be less expensive - perhaps someone could refer me to sources ( Im looking but finding too much info if you know what I mean,) where can I have the masking made? and would a simple HF set up work for a first run?

[Gary Hair]

Neville,
I sent you an email through the forum, let me know if you don't get it.

Gary

[Mike Null]

Larry

When I started 12 years ago they said a dollar a minute was the going rate. Gas was under $2.00 a gallon then. Now it 's closer to $4.00 per gallon and everything else is matching it.

[Rodne Gold]

Yeh- but then a low powered laser was also a lot rarer and more expensive than now - what with cheap lasers flooding the market - the cost of lasering has gone down (to the consumer) - like digital printing - at one time you could get like $8 per sq ft - we got guys now doing digiprinting at just over $1 per sq ft.

[Scott Shepherd]

You'll have to search around the internet to find who sells the masks. I used to know, but I can't locate the info right now.

Here's two companies to look at, as they have videos of the process, which will help you understand it all.

http://www.ikonicsimaging.com/
http://www.rayzist.com/

Also, in reference to spending $15,000 on a used machine, you can buy a brand new Universal Laser, VLS system for $15,000, so I'm not sure that's a great deal. Prices have really come down on lasers in the last 3 years.

[Larry Bratton]

Mike,
When I started 3 years ago, that's what they said too. I believe Rodne is right.

[Mike Null]

Larry

I don't agree at all. I'm getting more than ever for my work and for my materials. As an example, 2 square feet of nametags takes 27 minutes engraving and cutting time; 20 minutes of set up and 20 minutes for assembly.

Materials cost $30.00; selling price $296.45. That's $4.42 per minute if my math is ok.

[Larry Bratton]

Mike,
Not in my part of the world. Your fortunate to have 12 years of experience and a good customer base. Demand for laser made products is not very high here. You are an exception to the rule. Best wishes for your continued success.

[Gary Hair]

Mike,
Not in my part of the world. Your fortunate to have 12 years of experience and a good customer base. Demand for laser made products is not very high here. You are an exception to the rule. Best wishes for your continued success.

I agree with Mike, it's good here as well. I start at $2.00/minute for laser, cnc, dye sub and sandblasting and I'm as busy as I can be.

Gary

[Adam Orton]

I will apologize first as it might be obvious but how does the dollar (two) a minute work?? How do you calculate per item cost??

[Dan Hintz]

It is simply a rough guideline for what you're aiming for as far as cash in hand goes... if I project is going to to take me an hour to deal with the customer, laser it, wrap it, design it, etc., I want to get about $100-$120 for the final bill. Some include materials in this figure, if not too costly, some don't.

For example, customer supplies a 12x18" wood plaque that takes 20 minutes to deal with customer and fix a small design error, followed by 45 minutes on the laser. I'd charge it out around $100-$120. If I supplied the plaque, I'd probably add $50-$100 to the price based upon if it's off-the-shelf or if it had some nice finishing or border/edge work done to it.

[Gary Hair]

I will apologize first as it might be obvious but how does the dollar (two) a minute work?? How do you calculate per item cost??

Adam,
Rate per hour / Units per hour = unit cost

ie. $120 per hour / 10 units = $12 per unit

You MUST calculate the entire time to do the project, not just laser time. Setup, artwork, communicating with the customer, ordering product, receiving product, unpackaging, prepping, lasering, cleanup, packaging, delivery, etc., etc. It may take me 15 seconds to laser a 1.5" wooded disc with a name, but it may take 30 minutes to complete the entire task, that's going to be a $60 disc. If I could do 240 an hour that wouldn't reduce my price to .50 each, they would likely stay at around $1.25 each making my "hourly rate" $300.

Pricing is the most difficult part of our job but gets easier with more experience. Mistakes will still be made but hopefully they won't cost you too much.

Gary

[Dan Hintz]

Pricing is the most difficult part of our job but gets easier with more experience. Mistakes will still be made but hopefully they won't cost you too much.
Can't repeat that one enough...

[Adam Orton]

Thanks Gary, Dan!!! I engrave as a hobby only but I still like to understand what I am "giving"away. Thanks again I really appreciate the help and now to copy and paste.. hehe