Power Feeder Strategy?

[ian maybury]

Just starting to think about this as my shop is moving towards readiness to start work on hardwood furniture etc after a big upgrade of tools and equipment to go commercial.

Admission no.1 is that i've never used a shaper, admission no. 2 is ditto in the case of power feeders.

Yet i seem to be picking up a clear message that they offer significant safety, quality of finish and consistency benefits - which makes total sense from my engineering background.

Trouble is (a) they can get damn expensive, and (b) there's potentially a lot of differing applications for them.

Separates would be very expensive, but having solved the not so simple problem of mounting it then trying to move a single (largish) feeder between machines could quickly wear thin.

So i guess the question is whether or not there's any 'smart' strategy by which to approach the question. It's going to be a case of 'buy as and when needed', but equally it's so easy to make a wrong move when you haven't thought the whole picture through.

Applications i can think of in possible order of importance include:

1. Shaper feeding, including possibly some fancy curved cuts using fixtures.

2. Bandsaw resawing and ripping. (looks like i'm going for the 5hp/533mm (21in) Holzkraft HD saw previously discussed as being quite similar to the HD/industrial Grizzly models) There are purpose made bandsaw feeders available which seem much more compact than the typical roller skate.

3. Planer feeding. I have a Hammer A3 410 16in.

3. Router table feeding. This looks like a job for a very small/low powered feeder.

2. Ripping on the table saw. (my Hammer K3 perform has an 8ft slider, so this is probably not so urgent)

Feeder types vary so widely. From single roller (?) types for bandsaw use, through micro models and on to 0.75HP plus multi wheel models.

One very basic question is for example why it may at some point become necessary to go for more than 3 wheels. Required speeds is another. Another is what spending more money on top brands buys - whether or not the cheaper makes/models have disadvantages in the context of the low frequency of use but high quality requirement in a one man shop.

There are no doubt obvious considerations/uses i'm missing too...

Thank you

ian

[David Nelson1]

I bought a delta unifeeder that I was able to adapt to my craftsman T/S. It will also work on the jointer when it come to cutting back relief for flooring or molding.

THe shaper I bought was the small one from Jet 1/1/2 HP. There is no room to add a feeder without making a braket of some sort. So..... I building a 16' section lower cabinet to house the feeder and my sliding miter saw. The feeder will be mounted to the fence prior to the infeed side.

You can angle the feeders so that keep the wood againts the fence but imn my case for the shaper I will be using feather boards to hold the wood flat and tight againts the fence.

The only thing I can't make this feed do is resaw.

[Peter Quinn]

I started with one 1HP 3 wheel grizzly feeder, which is made by comatic, and it is a cheaper comatic at that. I tapped both the TS (standard US model cabinet saw) and my then single 3HP shaper to accept the feeder base, which is a fairly simple affair if you have some basic metal machining skills. Not sure what it involved with the hammer equipment. The feeder lives primarily on the shaper where it is used for nearly every application. For both safety and quality to me a power feed on a shaper is a must and the shaper is rather incomplete without it. You will find some hand feed people out there who will insist hand feeding is a fine idea on a shaper, but they mostly ride stone wheel unicycles to work and live in caves.:D (sarcasm) They also have an unhealthy and perhaps unnatural affinity for bizarre feather board set ups a la Rube Goldberg. A feeder is much simpler and stuff comes out smoother.

I built a rolling cart to move the feeder to the TS for production runs of repetitive work where the time involved with setting up a power feed was justified by the time savings. It was not a safety concern for me on the TS, as I am able to work safely both with or without a stock feeder on that tool. There I do use feather boards and other work hold downs, and for many of the things I do on the TS the feeder would either be in the way or useless, so it has no permanent home there.

My 1HP feeder would crush my router table, perhaps a baby feeder would be better suited, perhaps a Hammer or felder shaper with a high speed router spindle would be better still.

I have seen feeders on what we yanks call a jointer, might be what you are calling a planer? Comatic makes a feeder specifically for flattening to be used on a jointer, I see no need for that unless you either have a huge volume of work, and unhealthy obsession with efficiency at any cost, a pile of cash to burn, or no hands. I prefer a hand feed on that tool, its a feeling thing, very sensual.

Most stock feeder suitable for shaper/TS use are moving too fast for the BS, have too many wheels, are too large, just not a great fit. A one wheel feeder specifically for the BS is a great option if you can afford that, I cannot. There are lots of speciality feeders for specific tasks but it becomes a matter of scale as to whether or not they make sense for your operation. Griggio makes a three HEAD feeder where each wheel is on a separate head all of which articulate for running curved moldings in a carriage on a shaper. But for $2700, I can think of a few work arounds to avoid needing that! So if lots of shop sawn veneers are in your future, consider an infinitely VS one wheel BS feeder!

As far as quality across brands, it varies widely. I have the three wheel 1HP Grizzly comatic still, and now have added a 4 wheel Steff Maggi to another shaper. I have actually had the Grizzly stop dead from over heating during a long run. That has never happened to me with a Steff. Let the comatic cool off, works fine again as it has over load protection. But its just not the same class of motor at all. If you plan on doing short runs on a limited scale you might never notice the difference. And the wheels on the Steff are some very sticky polyurethane, the comatic has the cheapest grade of rubber available. I have to keep the cheap comatic wheels very clean and sand them occasionally to remove hardening, the poly wheels on the Steff are far superior. The four wheel format of the steff allows the passage of shorter rail members much more easily than the three wheel feeder does, so I prefer that, but for may things it is an irrelevant detail. Check the distance between centers of the wheels and consider the size of your average parts to see what is correct for your needs. you can also fashion a carriage to move most short parts safely past the cutter too. Also there are lots of plastic handles on the cheaper feeder, the Steff is all metal and built like a tank. But the bones of the stand is essentially the same on both machines and both work well under most circumstances.

[Jon van der Linden]

Regarding speeds, it's often not just what the options are, but how much work it is to change speeds. Some feeders require changing actual gears around to access all of the advertised speeds. For this reason I'd have a serious look at variable speed feeders.

A good feeder is going to weigh a lot. This weight is part of what holds the work. It might not be suitable for a router at all depending on the table.

For bandsaws there are special bandsaw feeders. You shouldn't use a feeder on a bandsaw unless everything is designed for it. (Saw, blade, and feeder - I'm assuming we're not talking about a sawmill here.) Bandsaw resawing is very slow, significantly slower than most feeders will go. If you're not in production there's no reason to even think of this. If you're doing it to precision saw veneers or bookmatch panels, then there are better options.

One reason for 4 vs 3 wheels is it will make climb cuts and other dangerous operations on the shaper much safer. (Seeing as you haven't used a shaper before, I wouldn't advise doing a climb cut even with a good feeder.) If you look at the Aigner catalog it will have photos of some interesting setups that might be informative for workholding on the shaper.

A good feeder will make a noticeable difference in the quality of the cut when compared to hand feeding on the shaper. Keep in mind that quality shaper cutters often have a fairly large diameter even when compared to planers, so the marks left are flatter.

Using a feeder on the jointer can be helpful especially with longer pieces. Just keep it over the outfeed side.

The one thing I see here is that you're asking about a lot of different machines. If you're thinking of moving it from one machine to another, that's going to be a huge incentive against using it at all. The better and larger the feeder, the heavier it's going to be and the less you're going to move it.

[Bill Orbine]

I like the four wheel feeder for the shaper rather than the three. This allows me to position the feeder with two two wheels before the cutter head and two after the cutter head. The extra wheel is worth it and does help with the improved quality of the cuts. Especially with long stock. And if you find the need to use only less than four wheels, you could always take off one or more wheels..... especially when your getting into curved work. And do beware of the speed rates... some feeders are just too fast. I'd look for some variables of speeds under 30 feet per minute such as 10 15, 20, 25 (only an example). Currently, I have an 8 speed feeder yet only the slowest speed is suitible for shaper work as the rest is too fast. And make sure you get the right size feeder (mass) for the shaper work you are doing. It does not bode well using a dinky little feeder for heavy cutting on a bigger shaper. Finally, the feeder I have is dedicated to the shaper only.... I never used on any other machine. But that could change someday but I doubt it. Just think what's right for the shaper.

[ian maybury]

Great work guys, thank you. I have a 4hp Hammer F3 tilting shaper (but with no high speed spindle), but it's as yet unused and new to me. Also an Incra router table - i'm not sure how they will end up overlapping. I've coincidentally just ordered an Aigner catalogue from the UK, it looks like a great source for 'nice stuff'.

There's definitely something therapeutic about running a jointer Peter. (yes - planer over here :)) My thought on using a feeder on one was just that the ability to maintain a consistent downward pressure on the outfeed table might prevent lifting errors when working with long and wide pieces. i.e. stuff stiff enough to be tough to force down flat. (i've a load of 2in beech to rip and plane up for a long bench) That said I have some good roller stands, and with table extensions it should be fine.

It seems (as ever - oh well....) that there isn't really a one size fits all feeder solution, and that even if there was the moving between machines is a pain.

Drawing on more of what you guys have written the picture seems to be:

1. Feeders help with quality of cut by delivering a constant feed speed, and by holding down longer and stiffer pieces that might lift off cutters if hand fed. They also save labour on repetitive work.

2. The primary use for a feeder is on the shaper, it sounds unwise to go much less than 1hp on this for heavier work on 3 - 4hp (?) machines. This larger feeder needs to the ability to get down below 30ft/min on these machines, ideally with electronically variable speed (not necessarily available) rather than gearing changes. Cheap wheels can be slippery, and need a lot of cleaning. Four wheels can improve quality of cut on long workpieces, but lead to a bulkier unit which could obstruct jig use etc. I've seen lots of positioning adjustability, reach and vertical capacity mentioned elsewhere as important too.

3. While not such a priority in general this type of feeder is broadly usable on a planer/jointer and table saw as well subject to getting it properly mounted off the table (tapping holes, brackets etc), and of course the work of moving it over from the shaper. Any advantage is likely when handling longer and stiffer material (holds it down), and large quantities.

4. Comment: It starts to sound like it's worth paying a little extra to maximise the capability of this sort of feeder. (Felder do a nifty looking 'swing out' mounting)

5. Bandsaw resawing really requires a dedicated feeder due to the bulkiness and too high speed of stock feeders as above - but it's not going to add a lot except on long resawing. (i'm talking a heavy duty resaw bandsaw like say a 20in Minimax) Since posting i've noticed that Grizzly (and presumably Comatic) do a mid sized bandsaw feeder at about $650.

6. A router table would use a small feeder, but it's not necessarily an urgent need. That said, and separate to the above there's an article in FWW speaking highly of the safety and quality advantages of using a Grizzly/Comatic Baby on one. It sells for around £200/$200, so it's fairly accessible.

Hopefully this draws a fair picture from what's been said. It seems to paint a fairly clear picture of priorities and options anyway, and of the separate feeder requirements - and in turn makes buying choices a lot more straightforward.

Thanks again

ian

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Ian, I have a Hammer B3 Winner with a Hammer HC308 feeder.

The feeder has a good range of speeds for shaper and saw operations.

The HC308 has the following speeds 2.9/4.5/7.5/11.5 metres/minute.

Regards, Rod.

[ian maybury]

Hi Rod. I'd a long look at the B3 last year when I was buying, but ended up going for separates - a K3 Perform and F3 shaper.

I'm still not sure if it was the right call, but thought i'd go what seemed the safe route. That saw shaper combo seems to give away pretty much nothing compared to separates (you even gain by having the long saw slider available, compared to the short stock F3 slider), but saves a lot of space.

I've been looking at Felder feeders too, and doing some digging to check out what else is going. They seem a good deal, and as you point out have lots of speeds starting good and low.

What kind of work do you do, and how have you done for power with 0.5hp?

ian

PS I like my bikes too, another disease i'm supposed to have got over at my age...

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Ian, I haven't had any issues with the 0.5HP feeder, it is heavy and rigid, which allows it to provide enough force to control and move large work pieces.

Once you get to 1/2 HP, ignoring losses, at 16 feet per minute it would have 1,000 pounds of tractive effort. What are you shaping, entire barn doors in one shot??:D

Most of my work is Arts and Crafts type, so not a lot of mouldings, however I use the shaper for rebates, grooving, pattern copy and occasionally panel raising, and of course cope/stick stuff.

The largest raised panel door I've made had a panel about 1.5m X .7m.

Oh yeah, forgot tenons, lots of tenons due to A&C stuff.

If you need a wide range of speed, the infinitely variable feeders are nice, they use a VFD and are available in single and three phase inputs, the feeders themselves of course are 3 phase internally.

Since my feeder is on a B3 I use it on the table saw and the shaper.

A feeder sure makes ripping a stack of strips easy.

regards, Rod.

P.S. Bikes

- 1976 BMW R90/6, basic transport

- 1975 850 Commando, original owner (Am I really that old!)

- 1930 500cc James single cylinder 4 stroke with acetylene lighting

Diann has a 1977 R60/7 BMW

[ian maybury]

Good to hear you are doing OK on 0.5hp Rod. You hear the odd throwaway comment about needing 1hp, but then heaven knows what people are using it for.

Part of my problem (and the reason for all my questions about machine/tool strategies) is that it's not too clear exactly what i'll be shaping - so in absence of a narrow focused requirement i'm trying to cover bases without going mad on costs. Point being that most of what i've done so far was DIY/household on a Robland combo - so the whole undertaking is a bit of a leap of faith. :eek: (fortunately my wife works and the kids are off our hands)

It looks like being furniture, but with a bit of an arty tinge. Guess it makes sense to have the ability to do heavy covings and the like in case commercial realities move me towards more period stuff, or large radius round over sections.

Not having to move the feeder seems like another a nice subtle advantage of the combo too i guess.

ian

On the bikes. I'm a Honda man, a retro styled CB1300 Honda four in recent years. Sports bikes and track days before that - after a gap after i quit MX racing. I had (still have) a big hankering after one of those 70s Beemers like you have that straddled the modern and the more historic style - i always remember seeing German tourists on them here in Ireland in full leathers with all the kit (large capacity alloy tanks and the like) when i was still in jeans. I like tuning and bike engineering - my eng degree thesis in 1979 entailed building, racing and testing a novel MX frame with material help from the local Yamaha importer. It eventually led to a deign for a composite chassis, but i couldn't get anybody to take it up.