What works good for painted crown moulding?

[dirk martin]

What's better for paint grade crown moulding? Pine or Poplar? And what grade of raw stock is typically used for paint grade?

[Michael Schwartz]

Locally select grade poplar costs about the same or less than pine.

In fact I can buy #1 common cherry for about the price of finish grade pine from the lumber yard or home depot.

If your milling your own crown and other trim using a hardwood such as poplar may prove to be quite economical. However trim grade pine is commonly stocked in lengths of 12-16 feet. Locally most of the hardwoods I buy run 10 feet in length, with 12 footers mixed in.

After I did the math and calculated the price per boar foot of finish grade pine from home depot and my local lumber yard, I was shocked to find out what it really cost. Buying rough sawn hardwoods at the right place will save you quite a bit of money.

The poplar would be nice since its harder and takes paint well, but pine would work nicely too. I would look at cost and see what fits into your budget.

[Peter Quinn]

Both mill well and paint well, but around here poplar is cheaper and more easily available in 16' lengths clear. For poplar sound stable small nots work fine in paint grade, pine nots are a bleeding pain, so I"d probably lean toward poplar, fas grade.

[Carroll Courtney]

Use it for face frames,cabinet doors,etc.I use it for most of the painted stuff and the grain over time will not show through like pine will---Carroll

[Prashun Patel]

I'll get flamed for this, but also consider MDF for painted crown.
It's cheaper, smoother, machines like butter, conforms to waves, and is on par with poplar's stability.

[Stew Hagerty]

I'll get flamed for this, but also consider MDF for painted crown.
It's cheaper, smoother, machines like butter, conforms to waves, and is on par with poplar's stability.

+1 for MDF. It is the absolute BEST for painted moldings. As for Poplar -vs- Pine, I would definitely go for Poplar. It is less porous and more uniform than Pine.

[Gene Waara]

+2 for MDF. On the ceiling it will never get bumped so it will hold up well and is not close enough for anyone to tell it is MDF. I found the corners will not miter as well but the cost savings more than makes up for the need for a little filler and sandpaper.

[Chip Lindley]

Price-wise, MDF rules! It is smooth and paintable! But 8 ft. lengths make it a PITA. I dispise joints in the middle of long runs of Crown. I would do it right and get the longest lengths of poplar I could. But that's just me.

1x6 TREX (plastic) is available in 18 ft. lengths. But about $40 each.

[Mike Nguyen]

What's better for paint grade crown moulding? Pine or Poplar? And what grade of raw stock is typically used for paint grade?
I used MDF. It's cheap. I paid about 50 cents a foot for the base board and about 90 cent a foot for the crown. I put 1 base on top of the ceiling, 1 base of the wall, and then the crown in the middle to create big profile.

[Lee Schierer]

My choice for paint grade trim would be poplar. However be aware that you will need to sand after the first coat to get a really smooth finish. Poplar does not have the sap bleed problem associated with pine nor does it have a pronounced grain.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

My choice would be Poplar.
Good luck with MDF is you ever have a leak someplace.
It's happened to me.

[Brice Burrell]

I'd strongly recommend a stock profile in MDF for the cost and easy of installation. I can get all the MDF stock profiles in 16" lengths for dirt cheap around here. That assumes you want a stock moulding. If you want something custom (that's the only good reason to mill it yourself) don't mess around with MDF.

I've installed plenty of MDF, pine and poplar crown, once it's painted you can't tell the difference between them. For paint grade my first choice is MDF.

[scott vroom]

Use it for face frames,cabinet doors,etc.I use it for most of the painted stuff and the grain over time will not show through like pine will---Carroll

I'm building some painted office cabinets in a few weeks and was looking at hard maple Vs poplar. Seems the popular would dent too easily being a fairly soft wood.

[Don Alexander]

if price is the "be all , end all" for this project then MDF is probably king

if quality is at all important then MDF doesn't even get a mention, ever

thats my opinion btw and i'm sticking to it :D

[Bill Orbine]

MDF is cheap and paints well... but the bends are sure highlighted if the ceiling and walls aren't flat and true. Hardwood poplar is my choice. even The wood "lays" flatter upon ceiling and walls because of it's stiffness compared to MDF. After installation, let the molding acclimate to the room before caulking and paint to eliminate cracks.

[Jim Becker]

I will always choose poplar over pine for this application...pine very often is a bit "pitchy", and I don't mean that in the American Idol vernacular, either. That can affect the finish quality.

[Michael Simpson Virgina]

Poplar paints up much better than pine. If you send between coats you can get a finish you would never get with pine.

[Josiah Bartlett]

Poplar grain doesn't raise as badly as pine, which is why it paints better.

I've used MDF. I hate it. It just never looks quite right to me.

[Mike Nguyen]

For me also it depends on the cost of the whole project. When I did my house, I know I wanted big profile using 2 bases and 1 crown to build up, the cost of poplar is just too much to do the entire house of 4300SF. With MDF it's about 2 bucks a linear foot for the 2 bases and 1 crown.

[Brian Peters]

Poplar is the best choice for paint grade molding. For high end cabinetry soft maple is best for the cabinets, face frames, applied trim. But for the rest poplar works. It's fairly affordable, paints and machines well and is much more durable than pine. Pine is a terrible wood work with with in terms of durability. It takes dings and dents very fast and depending on the grade will have defects, knots etc.

[Clint Olver]

A month ago, I would have said poplar, but recently I have become a MDF convert. Quick, easy, cheap, and it looks the same when finished.

C

[dirk martin]

I can buy sheet goods from a local supplier, and they sell Melamine, where they list the "core = MDF". Is this the MDF you guys are speaking of? My guy only sells 1/4" thick pieces of it. They do have some 3/4" thick, but then they say the core is "PB"...whatever that is???....

3/4" x 49" x 97", with that PB core is $25.60 per sheet from my source.

Also from what I'm seeing, Poplar really is just barely harder than pine:
http://www.thinboards.com/WoodHardness.aspx

[Bill White]

I have MDF trim all over my existing and new home. Easily painted and stable.
Bill

[Chris Padilla]

Birch paints up well, too, but can't beat the cost of pine, poplar, or MDF.

MDF can do fine for crown and > 8' lengths can be made up yourself.

MDF for base is something I won't do again: it just can't take minor abuse. Pine (finger-jointed) adorns my living room and is holding up just fine.

[Van Huskey]

I'll get flamed for this, but also consider MDF for painted crown.
It's cheaper, smoother, machines like butter, conforms to waves, and is on par with poplar's stability.


+ whatever number for MDF crown.

Paint slicks out really well with a minamum or prep work...which I hate. I use Radiata pine for profiles that do not lend themselves to MDF but it can bleed through paint if not well prepped.

[Brett Nelson]

I wouldn't even consider pine if I were custom milling. My rule is to never use a "pitchy" wood for paint grade work.

I would suggest one thing though. MDF is not just cheaper, it has other advantages that are really big. The crown in my home is a built-up of;

4 1/4" cyma
Fascia board with 2 1/2" reveal
Soffit with 4" reveal
2-piece built up bedmould

In total, the crown is about 12". MDF is MUCH more stable in these applications and you won't get any crack out on your caulked seems. Similarly, my sister has a high-end home with a 2-piece crown consisting of a 4" ogee base and 7 1/2" cove mould. The trim carpenter convinced her that it is a sin to use MDF, and subsequently poplar was used for everything. Everyone here probably realizes the issues with a 7 1/2" poplar cove. Unstable is the understatement of the century. She doesn't have a single seem that hasn't cracked out twice already.

[Prashun Patel]

To be fair, I have a 3 piece built up crown in my family room that is entirely mdf. Seams have opened up along the scarfed joints. Not too bad, but MDF isn't impervious to expansion / contraction.

[Nathan Allen]

Can't wait until the idea that painted trim is "classic" fades; cheap is a better word.

That said, if you're going for painted take a look at vinyl, it is more expensive than mdf but is impervious to humidity and corner blocks are the new "painted is better" sales pitch since they're decorative and can cut install time significantly.

[Ellen Benkin]

Don't use wood and you won't have to cope. Use either MDF or styrofoam.

[Neal Clayton]

I wouldn't even consider pine if I were custom milling. My rule is to never use a "pitchy" wood for paint grade work.

I would suggest one thing though. MDF is not just cheaper, it has other advantages that are really big. The crown in my home is a built-up of;

4 1/4" cyma
Fascia board with 2 1/2" reveal
Soffit with 4" reveal
2-piece built up bedmould

In total, the crown is about 12". MDF is MUCH more stable in these applications and you won't get any crack out on your caulked seems. Similarly, my sister has a high-end home with a 2-piece crown consisting of a 4" ogee base and 7 1/2" cove mould. The trim carpenter convinced her that it is a sin to use MDF, and subsequently poplar was used for everything. Everyone here probably realizes the issues with a 7 1/2" poplar cove. Unstable is the understatement of the century. She doesn't have a single seem that hasn't cracked out twice already.

so here's my long winded rant about current building practices, not aimed entirely at you but your post is the one that got my brain smoking. it's not your fault, after all, you've been duped by shady builders like everyone else.

no offense to you or your sister but seams in the middle of walls and edge butted moldings are not 'high end'. so that isn't the only ride she was taken for ;). there are alot of modern building practices sold as 'high end' that are absolutely, positively, not. nor is MDF a solution to poor practices and design.

caps or bases that are to join on edge should be in opposing rabbets not butted edge to edge. the cap or base should be toenailed to the rabbet on the piece it is joined to, that way the path of least resistance is into the joint, not away from it. caulk cannot fix this, caulk used for such a thing is a patchwork solution to poor design and fit designed to work until the check clears and not much longer. the only proper use of caulk is to seal edge to wall, and only that because walls aren't plastered anymore like they used to be.

in addition to all of the above, no single run should be longer than the boards you can source. if there's a 35 foot run of wall without a break in the molding it's a badly designed room. that space should be divided by a door, a bay window, a cabinet, something. 'open floor plan' is another modern scam to eliminate doors and moldings and thus build things cheaper. and finger jointed moldings aren't a solution to that. you can't join boards of the same thickness end to end on an unstable substrate and have them stay that way over time, no matter how you cut the ends. if this was possible no one would buy lumber in longer than truck-bed lengths.

also, 15 gauge finish nails are not sufficient to hold such large moldings if the walls aren't perfectly flat. the solution is to use larger, rougher nails or trim screws, and more of them. the conversation would go like... trim 'carpenter': but i can't use my nailgun and can't trim this house in 3 days. i know, i'll give them a long list of excuses about how you "can't do this" and "can't do that" and so forth and so on. your response would be: i get it, you don't like the fact that you can't use your nailgun and you won't be out of here in a week. get over it, or go bid on another job.

there are thousands of examples of centuries+ old buildings in which the moldings are just as snug as they were when they were originally hung and finished. and the people that trimmed those buildings didn't have MDF or caulk, and didn't have nailguns to shoot a room full of moldings onto the wall with in 10 minutes.

they did have..

1) properly designed multi-part moldings that were fit to pull together, rather than pull apart.

2) fasteners sufficient to hold said moldings in place, not a caulk gun full of liquid nails.

3) the time to not just cut/shoot/paint but to back prime/seal every piece before it was hung, thus keeping it more stable through the seasons.

emulating cheap building practices because cheap builders do it isn't a solution to said cheap building practices. demanding better of people and materials is the solution.

but that will cost more!

yes it will cost more. but it will actually be 'high end', not just low end with fatter particle board.


Can't wait until the idea that painted trim is "classic" fades; cheap is a better word.

That said, if you're going for painted take a look at vinyl, it is more expensive than mdf but is impervious to humidity and corner blocks are the new "painted is better" sales pitch since they're decorative and can cut install time significantly.

i can't wait either, but i bet i'm going to have to.

that said, vinyl is not a solution either. vinyl expands and contracts with temperature changes more than wood does with moisture changes. the only person that vinyl benefits is the builder, one less contractor (no paint).

[Brett Nelson]

so here's my long winded rant about current building practices, not aimed entirely at you but your post is the one that got my brain smoking. it's not your fault, after all, you've been duped by shady builders like everyone else.

no offense to you or your sister but seams in the middle of walls and edge butted moldings are not 'high end'. so that isn't the only ride she was taken for ;). there are alot of modern building practices sold as 'high end' that are absolutely, positively, not. nor is MDF a solution to poor practices and design.

caps or bases that are to join on edge should be in opposing rabbets not butted edge to edge. the cap or base should be toenailed to the rabbet on the piece it is joined to, that way the path of least resistance is into the joint, not away from it. caulk cannot fix this, caulk used for such a thing is a patchwork solution to poor design and fit designed to work until the check clears and not much longer. the only proper use of caulk is to seal edge to wall, and only that because walls aren't plastered anymore like they used to be.

in addition to all of the above, no single run should be longer than the boards you can source. if there's a 35 foot run of wall without a break in the molding it's a badly designed room. that space should be divided by a door, a bay window, a cabinet, something. 'open floor plan' is another modern scam to eliminate doors and moldings and thus build things cheaper. and finger jointed moldings aren't a solution to that. you can't join boards of the same thickness end to end on an unstable substrate and have them stay that way over time, no matter how you cut the ends. if this was possible no one would buy lumber in longer than truck-bed lengths.

also, 15 gauge finish nails are not sufficient to hold such large moldings if the walls aren't perfectly flat. the solution is to use larger, rougher nails or trim screws, and more of them. the conversation would go like... trim 'carpenter': but i can't use my nailgun and can't trim this house in 3 days. i know, i'll give them a long list of excuses about how you "can't do this" and "can't do that" and so forth and so on. your response would be: i get it, you don't like the fact that you can't use your nailgun and you won't be out of here in a week. get over it, or go bid on another job.

there are thousands of examples of centuries+ old buildings in which the moldings are just as snug as they were when they were originally hung and finished. and the people that trimmed those buildings didn't have MDF or caulk, and didn't have nailguns to shoot a room full of moldings onto the wall with in 10 minutes.

they did have..

1) properly designed multi-part moldings that were fit to pull together, rather than pull apart.

2) fasteners sufficient to hold said moldings in place, not a caulk gun full of liquid nails.

3) the time to not just cut/shoot/paint but to back prime/seal every piece before it was hung, thus keeping it more stable through the seasons.

emulating cheap building practices because cheap builders do it isn't a solution to said cheap building practices. demanding better of people and materials is the solution.

but that will cost more!

yes it will cost more. but it will actually be 'high end', not just low end with fatter particle board.



i can't wait either, but i bet i'm going to have to.

that said, vinyl is not a solution either. vinyl expands and contracts with temperature changes more than wood does with moisture changes. the only person that vinyl benefits is the builder, one less contractor (no paint).

I understand your rant, and agree with most of it. But I take exception to certain points.

One is to point out that I live in UT. -30*F in the winter and 105*F... we usually sit at about 15% RH until a storm system moves in at which point we hit 100%RH for a week or two at a time.

Needless to say that wood doesn't perform well here. The finely crafted older building are subject to the same cracking and gaps that the newer buildings are. The modern solution to that problem is more paint and caulk.

When I stated that my sisters seams have all cracked out, I was not referring to scarf joints. I was referring to seem where the crown meets the wall and the ceiling. Plaster or not, these will crack out. I agree with your point about modern building not assembling profiles correctly. One reason they didn't see the separation of the moulding from the wall is because they weren't that excited about 8" wide coves. Unless you mill that trim from heart wood, there is no way that it is going to be stable. That is why I assembled my crown the way that I did. It is historically correct, but they did it that way because it was both functional and more dimensionally stable. I made a conscious decision to use MDF in certain areas, because I was willing to make the compromise. I don't consider my home high-end, but rather a well built middle class home.

I guess my point is that different environments demand different practices. Not an excuse for poor building practices, but rather a suggestion that modern materials and building practices are not always inferior, but are sometimes born out of necessity. Glues and fasteners have only gotten better in time. Unfortunately, that has spurred builders to use less of them.