New Concepts Fretsaw - reviewed

[Derek Cohen]

A new world in fretsaws ...

inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/KnewConceptsFretsaw.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

Interesting new saw.

I have about a half dozen old fret saws. It will be hard to convince the SWMBO to spring for one or two more.

jim

[John A. Callaway]

Well, what caught my eye is that you signed the post " August 2010 " .... Its still July where I am....

So, Are you from the future ? :D


hahahaaa... ( I am fully aware of the international date line )

[Derek Cohen]

That's me ... The Time Traveller!

Regards from Perth

Derek (where it is Sunday, the 1st August)

[harry strasil]

I have never tried cutting those itty bitty small dovetails nor am I inclined to do so, but at one time early when I was learning I decided to cut the waste out with my shopmade coping saw set at a 45, so instead of following either side down and trying to cut it out that way, I used my archamedian drill and drilled a hole center of the waste and cut down to the hole with the coping saw and use the hole as a starting point. It worked rather well using a normal coping saw blade one side cutting on the push stroke and reversing the saw and cutting on the pull stroke the other way. Now I just chop them out.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/copingsaw.jpg

[Neil Zenuk]

Derek I've been looking at getting the 5", but might hold off if he's going to make a 45deg tilt version with quick release. Do you know if that's something he plans on selling regularly or special order only? Do you think you'd have clearance with the 3" model to still cut out the waste? As it would be stiffer (hopefully).

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Neil

I am sure that all the saws will now come with the quick release. The 45 degree looks like it will be available as a optional extra (I received both the 45 and the straight holders).

Lee is away in Wales for a few weeks and should be on all this when he returns.

That is about all I know - I have no involvement with Knew Concepts other than the conversations with Lee about design, and the prototypes associated.

Here is a series of pictures he sent me regarding the depth of cut with a 45 degree blade ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/Knew%20Concepts/45combo.jpg

The ruler shows the frame clearance at 2" for the three inch, 3-1/2" for the five inch, and 5" for the eight inch.


Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tom Henderson2]

Nice writeup Derek (ANOTHER nice writeup)...

I'm looking forward to buying one when they become available.

My only thought.... is that by changing the way the cutouts are designed in the corners, he could stiffen the frame a bit more...

But maybe it can be too stiff, which might make it difficult to tension the blade, or something...

This is an excellent example of how modern manufacturing techniques can really improve an ancient tool.

Thanks for sharing.

-TH


A new world in fretsaws ...

inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/KnewConceptsFretsaw.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Tom

Thanks.

I discussed the cutouts and the corner bracing with Lee. He went through a lot of testing and a lot of designs. What he has now is optimal. Especially the titanium - it is so stiff and strong, according to Lee it is already overkill.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Terry Beadle]

Thanks for the preview ! Niffty saw.

Is there a target price for the 5 inch?

[Bob Jones]

Looks great to me. Please post when they are available for purchase.

[David Weaver]

I'm pretty sure they are available now. I think there's a link in the article and if there isn't, you can google Knew Concepts Store. It mentions that there is (or may be) a bit of lead time to get them right now - 2 or 3 weeks according to the site.

....the wait is one saw longer now.

[David Weaver]

So much for a long lead time, after making that comment when ordering a couple of days ago, I got mine in the mail today.

It's an interesting little piece of gear - sort of like Zona wooden handle meets the space program.

I really like the tensioning design, and though I have little interest in testing its strength by pushing it, it seems pretty rigid.

And very light, but light without feeling at all weak.

Hopefully get to put it through its paces some this weekend.

[Leigh Betsch]

David did you get the titanium?

[David Weaver]

I think it's aluminum. I'm slowly putting two and two together here, and gathering that folks are asking when the titanium one will be available :rolleyes:

The only type I could find for sale was aluminum.

[Kevin Adams]

For those interested, I did correspond with Lee the other day (he is a great guy and very responsive to emails) and the new models with indexing blade clamps at 45 degrees (either way) with cam lever tensioning are just about ready now, he just doesn't have them up on his site yet. I believe he is attending WIA this weekend and will have some there. They are available in either titanium or a more rugged aluminum frame than his standard model now on his site. He said the more rugged aluminum was to account for larger blades that will be used by woodworkers.

And yes, I do have "dibs" on one of the titanium frame models when he starts shipping...:)

Kevin

[Derek Cohen]

Lee wrote to me yesterday from WIA ... "The response has been very good, and everyone has simply fallen in love with the swiveling clamps".

So the final design is definitely in production and for sale at WIA, and no doubt will be on the website after WIA. I assumed this with be in both aluminium and titanium, but not sure.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Dave Lehnert]

I was at the WIA in Cincinnati today and looked like he was selling some saws. I did not notice how much he was asking for them. I am not a total hand tool user but the saw did have a nice feel but in no way felt cheap.

[Josh Rudolph]

I was at the WIA in Cincinnati today and looked like he was selling some saws. I did not notice how much he was asking for them. I am not a total hand tool user but the saw did have a nice feel but in no way felt cheap.

He was selling the red one which I presumed to be aluminum for $95 and the Titanium was $165. I am interested in getting one, but his discrepancy in pricing from his website to the show made me not. I may stop by and ask the difference in the show model and the one on his website.

[Kevin Adams]

Josh, the new prices are for the new model, which has the swiveling blade clamps (45 degrees either way and a stop at 0), along with the cam lever clamp. Both of these are huge improvements and this may very well be the perfect fret saw for those that saw out their dovetails first. The aluminum frame is also beefier. Titanium is very expensive for those who want that version, but Lee did say that the new aluminum frame should be fine for most users.

Give one a try and let us know what you think!

Thanks,
Kevin

[David Weaver]

He was selling the red one which I presumed to be aluminum for $95 and the Titanium was $165. I am interested in getting one, but his discrepancy in pricing from his website to the show made me not. I may stop by and ask the difference in the show model and the one on his website.

The basic saw on his website is just that, basic. It's probably not going to fit all of the larger fretsaw blades in the hole at the end of the clamps. If you intend to go hard on dovetails, it may be worth it to get the heavier one, especially if you like to use the saw at 45 degrees (I don't, so not having the swiveling barrels isn't going cause problems).

I have other expectations for mine than just dovetails, and the light straight true feel of the saw is going to be VERY nice for fretwork, as is the no-nonsense clamping and tensioning.

As I mentioned in the other thread, if you're just going to get the small style of saw cosman sells, just go to a hobby shop and get the Zona version of it. It's $11, and it's made in the US. the mechanism is the same way. I have been using one on dovetails for two years, and it works well and is tough. Above and beyond that model, it's going to cost money to make something nicer.

[John Lytle]

Both models will have the stops. He is also working out a 'strategic relationship' for some bling handles, versus the current stock handle. The current handle is a bit small for my liking and the new partnership should get a more ergo shape and some fancy wood.

He will be getting my order in via e-mail, and he settles up with Paypal for now.

John

[Bob Warfield]

We just got home from WIA a few minutes ago. I spoke to Lee yesterday and actualy got to fondel the saws. They are expensive but my oh my are they nice! You really wouldnt believe how lite weight and balanced they are without holding one. I honestly couldn't feel the weight difference, if any, between the aluminum and titanium. Didn't have enough cash along to get one but I will have one before long!
Thanks,
Bob Warfield

PS Also let him know Derek has got to be his best sales tool!

[Wes Grass]

"bling handles"

Please let it be Blue Spruce. Oh please, oh please ...

[Derek Cohen]

Also let him know Derek has got to be his best sales tool!

:)

I just report what I find. I'd also be Lee's worst advert if my observations were inaccurate in any way! The same goes for any review I do - the thing about the forums is that one would be quickly denounced if the information was discovered to be embellished. I do try to be objective, but my enthusiasm is hard to disguise in my writings.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Adam Cherubini]

Derek,

It's not true what you wrote about titanium. This is a pet peeve of mine. I bought a pair of eye glasses. The girl at the shop told me they were titanium which is the "world's strongest metal."

In fact, Ti offers very little benefit over aluminum. Their stiffnesses and densities are in proportion to each other:

density of al=.1
density of ti=.16
E (young's modulus) al= 10,000,000
E (young's modulus) ti=16,000,000.

Also in proportion (roughly) are their ultimate tensile strengths.

Where ti is beneficial is where you need something small to fit into a small area and AL won't do, and steel is too heavy. It is also used for parts that see high heat. Fatigue critical parts might benefit from Ti. Otherwise, it's really not that advantageous and it's infrequent use is proof of that. I think it does more for marketing than engineering.

Lastly, until recently, the Japanese government forbade manufacturers from exporting material or products made from aerospace grade Ti (6AL-4V). So for years Japanese companies have been selling inferior TI alloys (for bicycle parts etc) where the use of TI was really just marketing. A high grade aluminum would have had a better strength/weight ratio. This annoyed me.

And I can tell just by looking at the frame that it isn't as light as it could be. Wherever the outer portions of the frame are bent/curved, there should be a stiffener there to take that kick. Especially the corners. I'm not criticizing. Just saying however light it is now, it could be even lighter.

All said, I quite like the design and hope Lee does well selling them.

Adam

[David Weaver]

I would imagine that the titanium saws will last longer for someone who uses them a lot and who likes to tension them tight.

I don't know how long it will take cumulative stress to catch up with the aluminum, but if they were close in price, I would opt for titanium because of the simple fact that if you tension it and it doesn't break, it's not going to.

That's my only reservation about aluminum. Over $100 is out of my range for a fret saw, though, no matter how good it is.

Most people aren't going to use it for anything more than dovetails, and at that, they're not going to use it as much as they think they are when they're buying it. I think where it's really going to excel is for cutting small parts for those of us who don't have a scroll saw.

[Jon van der Linden]

In fact, Ti offers very little benefit over aluminum.

This may be true for your applications, but is not true in general. While your numbers may be correct, they can only be correct for specific alloys. Titanium alloys vary greatly in their properties, which can vary by a multiplier of more than 3x. An obvious example of how different titanium and aluminum are is that you will never see an aluminum spring, but you can find titanium springs commercially.

Probably not that important on a woodworking forum, but the properties of those metals have significant differences.

[David Weaver]

Cumulative stress would turn an aluminum spring into junk in a very short period of time.

That is my only concern with the aluminum version of the fretsaw, because while it's rigid, it does still flex some when you're tensioning the blade - you can see it.

I'm not going to get too concerned about it until it actually occurs, though, because the $49 version is really the only one I can swallow price-wise.

[George Clark]

Per Lee at WIA: The 45 degree clamps will not fit the earlier design.

George

[Mike Brady]

I looked at the saws at WIA, and while a quantum leap in technology, the handles are definitely not on par with the quality of the other parts of the saw. The red-painted wood and crimped ferrule are hardware store coping saw quality at best. A purpose built handle is definitely in order. Just my opinion, of course.

[Derek Cohen]

I looked at the saws at WIA, and while a quantum leap in technology, the handles are definitely not on par with the quality of the other parts of the saw. The red-painted wood and crimped ferrule are hardware store coping saw quality at best. A purpose built handle is definitely in order. Just my opinion, of course.

Hi Mike

Those handles were clearly designed for jewellers rather than blingy woodworkers!

Lee mentioned that it will be possible to change the saw handles - not an option from his side, but he will provide a link to a site that offers them. I suspect that he is refering to Lee Valley, since he mentioned the handles I used on my screwdrivers (posted here a while back).

I do not mean to appear as if I am Lee's spokesperson, but he wrote to me to say that, for some reason, he could not post on the forum.

Regards from, Perth

Derek

[Eric Brown]

Derek, because of your review I decided to see the titanium saw at WWIA and I was pleased with everything except the wood used for the handle.
Talking to Lee, he said that others had made the same comment, but he did not wish to make any changes. However, he did send me over to the Elkhead Tools table. They said they would consider making handles for the saw. Well I ordered my saw and Lee told me had given a frame to ElkHead Tools so they can fit it. I am contacting them now to see about price/delivery.

Also, just got a Popular Woodworking blog notice where they talk about the saw.

Thanks Derek.

Eric

[lee marshall]

Hi all...Thanks Derek for bring this blog to my attention. I finally persevered and was able to register.

Lets see if I can answer some of the comments:
Still working on the woodworking portion of the site. Due to the lack of information, some are ordering the the metalworking saw (which is not as strong as the woodworking versions.
Pricing is $165 for the Titanium (going to $195 Oct 15) and $95 for the Aluminum version. Right now, to order them, you will have to email me and I will invoice you by Paypal. Sorry for the confusion...I simply ran out of time.

Handles...I am a believer of "form follows function" (Bauhaus). I understand that the handle is not an object of beauty, and that xome will want to change it for a more attractive one. I am working with Elkhead Tools with the idea that they will offer handles. I simply do not want to get involved in all of the hassle of offering 30 different woods and different contours. I can't keep up now without adding to the confusion.
If Elkhead is successful, I will provide a link to their site, and you can then order from them the handle of your choice.
Speaking of appearance, the Popular Woodworking review mentioned that the clamp knobs would have looked "cool" if they were knurled brass. Well, yes they would, except that the space available for them would have meant that they would have been only 7/16" in diameter because when the clamps are swiveled over 45 degrees, they would bump into the frame. I don't know about you, but I can't get enough purchase on a knob that small to provide proper force on the blade. Knurling by using vise-grips doesn't look that good. I needed a Tee knob, and the one that I chose is light weight and strong. 'nuf said.

Lee (the saw guy)

[Martin Shupe]

Lee,

Thanks for you comments...

What about the review by PWW that indicated a critical screw that was bending under tension?

Have you decided to beef up that screw?

Or can you provide replacements for life if it bends or breaks?

I would also like your take on the aluminium vs. titanium qualities and advantages/disadvantages.

Thanks for posting.

[lee marshall]

That screw will never see the type of loading that it was subjected to. It is a stainless set screw and should never break under normal usage. It was probably because of the lack of familiarity on his part. It is possible to actually break blades (smaller than wood cutting blades) in this frame. A bit of lube on the cam will reduce the sliding friction as well.
I certainly stand behind my product and I have a reputation of product support that is unparalleled.
The saw was handed to Chris as I was walking out the hall. None of the folks from the magazine had a chance to come to the booth as they were too busy with the show, so there was no information passed.
Partly my fault.
I don't see it as a typical problem.

Lee (the saw guy)

[John Stan]

Hi Lee -
How large a blade will fit in the saw? I prefer to use olson 9 point scroll saw. I saw some traffic that the saw would only take smaller blades such as those found in -- jewlers shops. Also, what is the throat depth?
Thanks,
John

[Matt Evans]

Welcome to the creek Lee. .

Glad to see another toolmaker on the forums, even if woodworking isn't their main focus.

[lee marshall]

The original jewelers saw was designed for smaller blades, and the hole for them was a #55 drill which handled a #8 blade.
I woodworker frame has a #49 drilled hole and handles pretty much any usual blade out there. Remember, this is a coping saw, not a chain saw:)

I think that I have posted pretty much everywhere that the frame depth is 5". By being able to swivel the blade at 45 degrees, the back spine of the frames clears 3-1/2", which pretty much covers most of the dovetails out there.

Lee (the saw guy)

[lee marshall]

Glad to be on board! Mostly, I do machining, working with metal. I don't do jewelry or wood. I make tools, and this is where I derive my enjoyment. I have been making tools for others for over 45 years. If interested, I also do a bit of radio work, adn the pieces that have appeared on our local NPR affiliate KUSP are on the site under the "Musings" link.
www.knewconcepts.com

I am attaching an image of the blade clamp showing all three positions, as well as the space limitations, which will show why I chose the knob that I did.

Back to the bent screw...I put one of the frames into a similar situation, and the blade was so tight as to be ridiculous. In normal situations the screw sees no where near that much side thrust. I am convinced that it was simply unfamiliarity with the saw.

[lee marshall]

Hopefully, one last bit re: knobs:
I originally sent this reply in an email, but since it is so timely to this discussion, here it is.

Good questions...The blade is clamped between an anvil screw (a flat point set screw) that has a 1/8" flat surface on its end.
The other side of the blade is clamped by the Tee knob. This is a screw that has a ground flat surface on its end.
With this arrangement, the surface area is reduced considerably over the huge pads that are used on typical fret saws. At first glance, you would think that bigger is better, right?
However, lets look at it from a different viewpoint:

When the first jet airliners came out, in an attempt to reduce weight, they used very thin aluminum on the floor. This was the era of the 4" spike high heels, and women were punching their 1/4" square heels through the floor. The airlines quickly made the floors thicker.
What they found, after doing some thinking about the problem was that the pounds per square inch (psi) of a 100 pound woman put more force on the ground in (psi) than a 4000 pound elephant!

Now, lets bring the discussion back to fret saw blade clamps.
The large pads used by the typical fret saws are like the elephant. They actually do not clamp all that well, as the force is dissipated over a very large area. When you file the serrations on the pads to increase the grip, what you are actually doing is reducing the surface area, thereby increasing the (psi). You are not really making the clamps "bite" into the blade any better. Remember that the blade is much harder than the clamp, or you would not be able to file it so easily.
My approach reduces the surface area significantly, and increases the force proportionally. It actually takes less twisting force on the clamp knob to secure the blade than it does on the large pads.

The cam lever tensioning device at the top of the frame overcomes the strength of the frame. Since the frame is so strong, it cannot be warped by either your hands or your body. It requires a mechanical advantage to do the job. Flipping the lever forward, releases the tension on the blade, allowing blade changes, or inserting the blade into another hole for marquetry.
Using the lever with marquetry is a "no brainer" as you do not have to hold the piece, thread the blade, warp the frame, and tighten the clamp all at the same time.
Simply insert the blade in the clamp, tighten the clamp, and flip the lever.

[lee marshall]

Finally was able to get parts together, and shipped about 30 saws out today. Mostly Titanium, but several Aluminum as well.

Chick for pizza boxes in your mail box:)

Lee (The Saw Guy)

[Eric Brown]

Got my titanium saw today. Went straight to the shop and tried it out.
Worked really good. So then I compared it to my other two coping saws and my one fret saw. Hands down it is better than any of them.

First thing I noticed is that the frame is lighter and is easier to position.
Second thing I noticed was the higher tension on the blade.
This helped it cut fast and straight. Wow. What a difference.

Bottom line: It's a keeper!

Thanks Lee.

Eric

[lee marshall]

Glad that you got a chance to try it out!

Looks can be deceiving. It is how it works, and feels in your hand that determines the "keeper" status.

Granted, I am a bit prejudiced, but I think that it is a really cool looking tool.

Lee (The Saw Guy)

[Doug Shepard]

Lee
How long before the new prototype titanium models show up on your website? I'd like to bookmark them and come back to it later when my budget isn't quite so beat up.

Edited
-------
Oops: My bad. Last I looked they weren't there but just found it after checking your site again.
http://store.knewconcepts.com/wo5tifr.html

[Bob Jones]

I just got my aluminum version. First try and I really like it. I will post more after I use it a couple of times.
Great blade tension. Nice big wooden handle. Great for lefties like me.