sharpening narrow chisels

[Prashun Patel]

My Robert Larsen honing guide does a poor job of holding narrow chisels. I have to play with it a lot to get the blade to set parallel to the plane of the roller.

Does anyone have a solution to this? Or can you recommend a better jig? I've heard a lot about Veritas MKII, but there are complaints that even that doesn't do well with narrow chisels.

Any help appreciated.

[Sean Hughto]

The Kell guide is one option:

http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Solid-Brass-Chisel-Honing-Guide-P5C2.aspx

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Shawn

You may not like my answer :)

I hollow grind the face on a Tormek or 8" grinder, and then freehand on waterstones.

This is easier than you realise. The hollow grind creates two edges on which you can rest the bevel face. Press down until balanced, then pull the chisel backwards with firm downward pressure. Lift it up and place it again at the end of the stone (or any medium), and firmly pull back as a single stroke. Do not attempt to push the chosel front and back.

After about 3 - 5 strokes on each stone are all that will be needed.

Otherwise use a side clamping guide such as the Kell #1.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Steve Hamlin]

I have no trouble with the honing guide handed down through the many generations of my family.
Originally used for napping flint, works well for even the weirdest shaped blade.
Throw away your crutches - you may stagger and sway a bit at first, but you'll be running in no time.

[Roy Lindberry]

Have you considered scrapping the jigs altogether and sharpening freehand? I've recently done so and have found that sharpening is now faster and better (and more enjoyable).

It takes a little practice, and just like with a jig, the narrow chisels are more difficult, but I'll never go back to jigs.

[Steve Hamlin]

LOL - three replies posted at the same time, all with the same solution

[Kent A Bathurst]

The Kell guide is one option:

http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Solid-Brass-Chisel-Honing-Guide-P5C2.aspx


+1




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[Roger Benton]

i have the veritas mkll and have no issues with my smallest chisels (1/4").

don't have a grinder to dedicate to sharpening so haven't wandered down the hollow ground/freehand honing path yet.

[David Weaver]

Any western chisel with a flat on top, except for a mortise chisel, hollow grind.

Narrow chisels with no flats on the top, completely freehand (they're not big enough for it to be a pain to maintain them without grinding like a bigger chisel would be).

Dump the guide for narrow stuff, it's a waste of time unless you have a moral objection to hollow grinding.

[Sam Takeuchi]

My smallest chisel currently is 1/16" and at this point, I'm not concerned about jig, honing guide, hollow grind or even flat bevel. It's fidgety and free hand is difficult at best, so I just rub it on the stone until it seems square, edge is worked. Slight skew doesn't concern me as long as I get the work done.

Something like 1/8" is more reasonable, but I suggest side clamping type of honing guide if you want to use one. Like others say, hollow grind and free hand hone might be the easiest path. Veritas Mk.II doesn't do too well clamping narrow chisels unfortunately.

Don't get too obsessed with perfectly flat or square bevel if you are dealing with chisels narrower than 1/8". 1/4" is easily do-able even with Mk.II and also free hand.

[Tony Shea]

Nice to see all the free hand advocates about. Seems like we are a dying breed. A hollow grind is def helpful but not absolutely neccessary to free hand. As long as your bevel remains flat you should have no trouble at all. The place where I and others end up in trouble is when attempting micro-bevels free hand. To maintain a consistant micro-bevel after consecutive sharpenings is next to impossible and will ultimately result in a rounded bevel. Others may disagree about the micro-bevel but this is my experience.

[James Owen]

My Robert Larsen honing guide does a poor job of holding narrow chisels. I have to play with it a lot to get the blade to set parallel to the plane of the roller.

Does anyone have a solution to this? Or can you recommend a better jig? I've heard a lot about Veritas MKII, but there are complaints that even that doesn't do well with narrow chisels.

Any help appreciated.

Learn to free-hand it!

[Richard Gillespie]

Initially learned to sharpen chisels and plane irons free hand. That is the superior method for narrow pieces.

[lowell holmes]

I agree with the posts about sharpening free hand, but no one states how to do it.

The Norton video I bought when I bought my waterstones shows a technique that is really easy. Mike Dunbar also shows it in some of his demonstrations. Check the video at this link. It makes freehand sharpening incredibly easy.

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/indextool.mvc?prodid=NO-SVIDEO-OIL

[David Weaver]

There's no need to pay to find out how to do it, it's not that hard or involved.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Hm4HiN2Lww

And if that gets pulled, go to youtube and look up "grinding and honing a chisel freehand"

Just pay attention to what you're doing to keep the steel from burning.

Note that the guy in the video spends a lot of time talking, but he could grind and hone in probably a minute.

He does a little more work to the fresh grind than I'd do on the diamond hone, and I wouldn't wipe the back across a diamond hone because it leaves deep grooves, but it really doesn't make much of a difference, I guess.

I like the use of the tormek honing paste on MDF, not necessarily if you have a good stone already, but if you don't have a good finishing stone, it stands in for one just fine.

[Don Dorn]

Hi Shawn

You may not like my answer :)

I hollow grind the face on a Tormek or 8" grinder, and then freehand on waterstones.

This is easier than you realise. The hollow grind creates two edges on which you can rest the bevel face. Press down until balanced, then pull the chisel backwards with firm downward pressure. Lift it up and place it again at the end of the stone (or any medium), and firmly pull back as a single stroke. Do not attempt to push the chosel front and back.

After about 3 - 5 strokes on each stone are all that will be needed.

Otherwise use a side clamping guide such as the Kell #1.

Regards from Perth

Derek

You are in good company - that method is what Frank Klausz recommends and demonstrates on his "Handtools" video. I do the same with chisels, but I do use a side clamping jig or the MKII on plane blades.

[Christian Castillo]

Hi, sorry to throw my own question into this thread, but since we are on the topic of grinders, does an 8" hollow grind do anything to deteriorate the edge life of chisels that will be struck? I only hollow grind my plane blades and paring chisels but keep a flat grind on my bench and mortise chisels. Any reassurance will be greatly appreciated as a hollow grind on my bench and mortise chisels will make sharpening much easier.

[Dan Karachio]

There's no need to pay to find out how to do it, it's not that hard or involved.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Hm4HiN2Lww

And if that gets pulled, go to youtube and look up "grinding and honing a chisel freehand"

Just pay attention to what you're doing to keep the steel from burning.

Note that the guy in the video spends a lot of time talking, but he could grind and hone in probably a minute.

He does a little more work to the fresh grind than I'd do on the diamond hone, and I wouldn't wipe the back across a diamond hone because it leaves deep grooves, but it really doesn't make much of a difference, I guess.

I like the use of the tormek honing paste on MDF, not necessarily if you have a good stone already, but if you don't have a good finishing stone, it stands in for one just fine.

Wait a minute David, are you saying I don't need to spend $800 to sharpen :) tools? I like that video, have seen it before, but now will pay more attention. I have my grinder and stones (plus some guides and other stuff). I really really really should be all set! Thanks.

[Richard Gillespie]

Hi, sorry to throw my own question into this thread, but since we are on the topic of grinders, does an 8" hollow grind do anything to deteriorate the edge life of chisels that will be struck? I only hollow grind my plane blades and paring chisels but keep a flat grind on my bench and mortise chisels. Any reassurance will be greatly appreciated as a hollow grind on my bench and mortise chisels will make sharpening much easier.

I hollow grind my bench chisels. It's my belief that hollow grinding reduces the friction of the chisel passing through the wood. I don't own mortising chisels therefore I'll leave their sharpening to others who know.

[David Weaver]

Hi, sorry to throw my own question into this thread, but since we are on the topic of grinders, does an 8" hollow grind do anything to deteriorate the edge life of chisels that will be struck? I only hollow grind my plane blades and paring chisels but keep a flat grind on my bench and mortise chisels. Any reassurance will be greatly appreciated as a hollow grind on my bench and mortise chisels will make sharpening much easier.

Should be no issue. If you're worried about any loss of edge strength at lower angles, just increase the angle a couple of degrees and the shallowest part of the hollow will still be as high as a flat bevel would've been.

[Derek Cohen]

Personally I would avoid hollow grinding if this creates a thin edge at the bevel. Unlike paring chisels, a mortice chisel is also used to lever out waste, and a thin edge will be more fragile (and snap off).

If you are inclined to hollow grind a mortice chisel, I would only hollow away some of the centre metal to reduce the amount to be honed. This is the only chisel I prefer to add a secondary bevel on a flat grind as that offers maximum strength along with a reduced area for honing.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tim Put]

I just did the math, it's only simple trig, those who wish to check it shouldn't need me to spell it out, everyone else has to take it on faith.

Taking as sort of worst reasonable case, hollow grinding a 1/4" blade to 25 degrees with a 6" wheel. The wheel makes a 7.3 thou (at the deepest) depression on the bevel. This is roughly equal to a bevel flat ground 3 degrees lower.

For a given final edge angle, microbevels are the weakest of all available options.

Assuming everyone hones their hollow ground edges, does any one actually experience chipping past the honed area? I don't. If not, isn't the question of strength moot anyway?

[Derek Cohen]

[QUOTE=Tim Put;1480149]...For a given final edge angle, microbevels are the weakest of all available options...QUOTE]

Where or how on Earth do you come up with that?

This depends on (1) the type of steel, (2) the thickness of the edge, (3) the angle at which it is ground, and (4) whether the microbevel is coplanar or secondary to the primary bevel.

For mortice chisels I would say that a micro secondary bevel on a flat grind is the toughest construction, and that a micro coplanar bevel at 22 degrees (the result of hollow grinding at 25 degrees) at the edge is going to be weak for impacts regardless of the steel, but more so for A2 than O1.

The bevel face of a mortice chisel is traditionally a flat ground 20 degrees, and the micro secondary bevel is 30 - 35 degrees. I really would not advise hollow grinding a mortice chisel.

A paring chisel is traditionally honed at about 20 degrees, but this chisel is never struck and only used carefully for fine detail or precision work. Hollow grind away.

A bench chisel is more usually ground and honed between 25 - 30 degrees, often the latter end, as it will often be struck.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[philip marcou]

Sharpening, i.e honing narrow chisels of 3/16ths and less is not better done with normal honing guides.
Grinding a hollow on these is further complicating the issue as well.
You can hone either a secondary bevel at about 30° or just maintain the primary grind angle of about 25° by clamping the chisel in a vise at the complementary angle and using a slip stone, oil stone, diamond plate, magical Chinese water stone or whatever in the hand . Because it is a complementary angle the stone is held horizontally-which is easy to eye ball. And you can see the bevel forming and make a correction if necessary.:)

[Tim Put]

...For a given final edge angle, microbevels are the weakest of all available options...

Where or how on Earth do you come up with that?

If you look at the different bevel shapes and think about where metal needs to be removed to form one shape from another, it's pretty obvious. But you don't need to take my word for it.

http://members.shaw.ca/petermichaux/workshop/BevelDownSharpening.html#Ranking

[philip marcou]

If you look at the different bevel shapes and think about where metal needs to be removed to form one shape from another, it's pretty obvious. But you don't need to take my word for it.

http://members.shaw.ca/petermichaux/workshop/BevelDownSharpening.html#Ranking
Come on now, Tim, in theory there is a micron or so of metal available for additional support at the heel when a blade is hollow ground. It is very very very small-and will disappear after a couple of honings. And it depends on how far back the actual curve of the hollow is taken- it may not reach the trailing edge and therefore will make no difference at all. I am referring to plane irons.

[Tim Put]

I think we're actually in pretty close agreement.

My own take is that almost all methods work. The differences in strength are between imperceptibly tiny and so small that unidentified second order effects may dominate; that is, you can ignore any difference. I personally choose to hollow grind and then flat hone just a bit, because it's fast, and it works.

The argument that one shouldn't hollow grind because it weakens the bevel is not only irrelevant (in that the differences in strength are minuscule), but backwards (in that whatever unmeasurable advantage there is goes to the hollow ground and not the flat ground). That is what I wanted to point out above.

Do what you like! I recommend a hollow grind because there are no real disadvantages, it makes free-handing easy, and it's fast.

[Tim Put]

Come on now, Tim, in theory there is a micron or so of metal available for additional support at the heel when a blade is hollow ground. It is very very very small-and will disappear after a couple of honings. And it depends on how far back the actual curve of the hollow is taken- it may not reach the trailing edge and therefore will make no difference at all. I am referring to plane irons.

In regard to that exact ranking: I agree, the number one spot is meaningless, in that idealized model, the advantage of a pure hollow grind over pure flat disappears the instant there is any wear at the ground bevel angle. Hollow ground then moves to "honed hollow ground".

n.b. In that idealized model, the hollow ground bevel angle is not the same as actual edge angle.

[David Weaver]

Wait a minute David, are you saying I don't need to spend $800 to sharpen :) tools? I like that video, have seen it before, but now will pay more attention. I have my grinder and stones (plus some guides and other stuff). I really really really should be all set! Thanks.

Way I figure it, you could do it with about $45 - until you start getting into sharpening odd shaped things.

I haven't come remotely close to following that, though, but I "sort of collect" (as todd hughes says) sharpening stones.

[David Weaver]

I guess a good question would be whether or not anyone has ever had an edge fail because they hollow ground something, and whether or not anyone has ever had an edge fail because they chose a shallow primary bevel with secondary bevels at a steeper angle.

I've used both a bunch, and I think the only thing I can recall causing an edge to fail is having the effective final angle too shallow. I don't know who needs all of the strength that is described in the theoreticals - about one method vs the other, because I've never had that part of the bevel fail - just the edges.

[Tim Put]

I guess a good question would be whether or not anyone has ever had an edge fail because they hollow ground something...

Agreed.


Assuming everyone hones their hollow ground edges, does any one actually experience chipping past the honed area? I don't. If not, isn't the question of strength moot anyway?


My message was too short.

[David Weaver]

Oops...missed that by way of not reading all of the posts.

The only substantial damage I've ever had to a chisel was from dropping. Dropped three japanese dovetail chisels out of a tool roll by accident once, right onto a concrete floor. All three of them managed to need a significant regrinding.

[Larry Marshall]

My Robert Larsen honing guide does a poor job of holding narrow chisels. I have to play with it a lot to get the blade to set parallel to the plane of the roller.

I used to complain about the same thing. Then I bought LN chisels. The difference isn't their quality but rather their profile. The LN chisels truly have a 'bevel edge' on their bevel-edge chisels and so even the narrow ones snap into the Larsen guide.

Take a look at your Larson guide and you'll notice that the inside is slightly bevelled. One side is more than the other. It's designed to push the chisel "up" into the flat. But if you're stuffing something like a Marples 1/8" chisel into it, that bevel doesn't match the flat on the side of the chisel.

Sooooo, you can fix it by filing that bevel flat, creating a square set of surfaces for the chisel to register against.

Cheers --- Larry