Wood stabilizer

[Harvey Schneider]

Hi everybody,
I was unable to search the forum for this so please excuse me if there have already been posts relating to this product.
Is anybody familiar with:

TURNER'S CHOICE WOOD STABILIZER
http://www.cedarcidestore.com/catalog/item/3343694/2900278.htm

It looks too good to be true. Does it work? At all?
If this is real it would be a significant help in dealing with woods that move around, crack and warp after the bowl is turned.
If I try it I would treat the wood after roughing out a bowl and then let it rest for a while (days?) I would like to know if anybody has tried this and what their experience was.
Thanks,
Harvey in Southbury, CT

[Richard Coers]

I hadn't heard about that, but don't care for this statement about the product,

"The Silicones in Turner’s Choice are NANO sized water scavengers that penetrate the molecular sidewall of the hydroxyl (hydrogen/oxygen) group molecule triggering the release of the internal water and catalytically replace it with a silicone and cedar oil jel which forbids the uptake of water into the wood’s cellular structure."

Silicone in a wood shop is a really bad deal. No finish sticks to silicone, and silicone contamination in a shop makes for some bad times for finishing in the future. I guess if you do the finishing outside, and don't plan to put any finish on the wood after use it would be okay. But I'm not interested in trying that.

[Terry Gerros]

Hi Harvey,

Haven't used the product but what I have done in the past is rough turn, coat with Anchor Seal, then re-turn later. That seems to work well, but takes time. Two weeks ago a friend of mine from NC (Mike Smith) told me about boiling rough turned stock. I do believe there have been some discussions regarding these methods on this forum.

To the point, we rough turned a green piece of mineral stained poplar down to 1" thick and boiled it for 1 hour (Mike says boil at the rate of 1" per hour, so a 2" thick bowl would be boiled 2 hours, etc.). Let it cool overnight in the water, then into a brown paper bag for a day or two, then into open environment. Works like a charm, no cracks/splits. Apparently, boiling does the same thing by freeing the bound water. We finish turned the bowl within 10 days. There is a good article entitled, "Boiling Green Wood Effective Strategies to Reduce Drying Defects," available at Woodturningvideosplus.com if you care to read more. They did something like 500 bowls of various species.

Terry

[Nathan Hawkes]

Harvey, this product must either be PEG--polyethylene glycol, or something similar. In simple terms, its big molecules replace the little water molecules in the wood cells, and don't flow in and out seasonally like water does. Hence, it doesn't warp.
Edit: I've never used PEG or this product, but from what I understand, it does about the same as silicone would as far as making a finish unable to stick to a product. Hope this helps.

[Bernie Weishapl]

I also rough turn mine and then coat the whole thing with anchorseal. It does take time for them to dry but haven't lost a bowl yet using this method. I have around 35 to 40 bowls drying that I examine from time to time and also use a postal weight scale I got for cheap off the big auction site to keep track of the drying. When they stop losing weight for several days they are pretty well dry. I have e-mailed and talked with Mike Mahoney at a demo he gave about this. This is the method he uses and it works well.

[Frank Kobilsek]

Harvey

All you need is time. Bernie's method is best. But I am a bit less ambitious so I don't weigh then rough outs. I date the roughed blanks. When they are more than a year old they are ready to turn.

Regardless of your choosen practice of drying; PEG, Soap, Boil, DNA, Anchorseal, Brown Bag, Newspaper Wrap, the most important step is that your wall thickness is as consistent as possible. Thin rims with thick bottoms crack and visa versa.

Frank

[Allen Neighbors]

Hi everybody,
I was unable to search the forum for this so please excuse me if there have already been posts relating to this product.
Is anybody familiar with:

TURNER'S CHOICE WOOD STABILIZER
http://www.cedarcidestore.com/catalog/item/3343694/2900278.htm

It looks too good to be true. Does it work? At all?
If this is real it would be a significant help in dealing with woods that move around, crack and warp after the bowl is turned.
If I try it I would treat the wood after roughing out a bowl and then let it rest for a while (days?) I would like to know if anybody has tried this and what their experience was.
Thanks,
Harvey in Southbury, CT
Harvey, I don't know anything about CedarShield, but I can tell you that I went to their site and watched the full video that explains the scientific results and practical application aspects of the CedarShield.
In that full video, the man states that stains and oil-based finishes adhere well, to the treated wood, and that there are no dangers from water penetration, and the wood no longer expands and contracts, because the water can't reach the cells. I'm thinking about spending the fifty bucks for a gallon of it. There is an email address for the scientist involved in the development of it, and I'm going to email him to pick his brain a little.


I hadn't heard about that, but don't care for this statement about the product,

"The Silicones in Turner’s Choice are NANO sized water scavengers that penetrate the molecular sidewall of the hydroxyl (hydrogen/oxygen) group molecule triggering the release of the internal water and catalytically replace it with a silicone and cedar oil jel which forbids the uptake of water into the wood’s cellular structure."

Silicone in a wood shop is a really bad deal. No finish sticks to silicone, and silicone contamination in a shop makes for some bad times for finishing in the future. I guess if you do the finishing outside, and don't plan to put any finish on the wood after use it would be okay. But I'm not interested in trying that.
Richard, as I said above, they state that stains and oil based finishes have no trouble adhering to the treated wood. I don't think it would be conducive to water-based finishes, and I'm not sure that you could use Danish oil on it after treatment, but I'm willing to bet that you could use the treatment after the Danish Oil application. Just thinking out loud.


Harvey, this product must either be PEG--polyethylene glycol, or something similar. In simple terms, its big molecules replace the little water molecules in the wood cells, and don't flow in and out seasonally like water does. Hence, it doesn't warp.
Edit: I've never used PEG or this product, but from what I understand, it does about the same as silicone would as far as making a finish unable to stick to a product. Hope this helps.
Nathan, see what I posted above, about Oil based finishes and stains.
If water can't penetrate the treated wood, how could stains penetrate? -- I don't know, but that's one of the questions I'll ask the scientist when I email him.
I'll get back to this thread, if and when I get an answer to my email questions.

[Allen Neighbors]

This is the message I sent to Cedarcide:
I am a wood turner, and am in contact with several others who are interested in your product. We turn both, green wood and cured wood, and the majority of my pieces are not artificially colored with anything. However, I am asking for other people with whom I communicate on a wood turning forum, so I have some questions about your stabilizer. I will communicate your response to my questions to the other turners on the forum.
One of your statements about the product, scares some of us to a certain extent: "The Silicones in Turner’s Choice are NANO sized water scavengers that penetrate the molecular sidewall of the hydroxyl (hydrogen/oxygen) group molecule triggering the release of the internal water and catalytically replace it with a silicone and cedar oil jel which forbids the uptake of water into the wood’s cellular structure." Silicones in a woodshop are not good for some finishing applications, and one of the statements made by Charlie (in your technical video) is that stains and oil based finishes adhere well to the treated wood.
Question one: Would it be possible to use a penetrating oil stain, after the wood has been treated?
Question two: Does a penetrating oil stain simply lie on the surface, or does it really penetrate into the wood.
I read somewhere on your site that sanding was improved by the application of the stabilizer.
Question three: Can you please elaborate on the sanding improvement? (Just for us woodturners -- sanding is a big job for some of us)
Let's say I cut a piece of green, wet, wood and prepare it for turning a 10" diameter bowl. I will mount it on the lathe, and turn the entire bowl to approximately one inch thickness (called "rough turning"). I would normally have to wait 6 months to a year for it to completely dry, depending on the type of wood, before I can turn the bowl to it's finished thickness of one fourth of an inch.
Last Question four: If I treated the rough-turned bowl with your stabilizer, how long would I have to wait, before I could finish turning it?
I thank you for your answers to my questions.

I will post any response I get to this thread.

[Harvey Schneider]

I found a post in the AAW forum:

[Allen Neighbors]

I found a post in the AAW forum:


Well, well. That seems to answer my questions. I think I'm going to go for at least a gallon of it. Hmmm... wonder what the shipping costs....

[neil mackay]

Allen, I will interested in your evaluation of the product, on the face of it,its promising. But the idea of sealing then finishing with penetration of finish is interesting to say the least, whats impossible with man...:)

As my Dad used to say 'if its too good to be true, then....

Keep us posted on your results, darn, I may have to find away to ship it down under.

[Allen Neighbors]

As my Dad used to say 'if its too good to be true, then....

Keep us posted on your results, darn, I may have to find away to ship it down under.

Hello, Neil,
"..then .... it probably is."
I wonder if your Dad ever talked to my Dad???......;):D

It may be cheaper to ship the wood to me, let me spray it, and ship it back... at least by the time it got back, it'd be dry. :eek::D

[tom martin]

I bought 5 gallons last winter. ($250 shipped) I've used about half so far with pretty good results. I still use anchor seal on log ends, but now turn and core a lot thinner. I also sand with 100 grit after I rough out. I then coat with turners choice using a paint brush. The first thing I noticed was that the cedarcyde soaked right through the end grain.
It speeds up drying time quite a bit. I finish turn (or sometimes just finish sand) after a couple of weeks. There is less warping and very few cracks. I was just considering whether I would buy more and decided I would. It is pricey, but I have turned about a hundred bowls so far so the cost per bowl is about a buck. I have also noticed that sandpaper lasts longer and that it is easier/faster to sand.
It is a little weird turning cherry and having it smell like cedar. Fortunately the smell does go away and it is food safe.
I have tried IPA with good results but I will never use IPA again as I can't stand the smell and worry about the flammability issue. Anchor seal works good too, but takes a long time and is hard to remove from natural edge pieces and bark inclusions.
I bought 5 gallons because it was the most cost effective. I suggest splitting it with a friend if you need less.
Good luck
Tom

Oh , I forgot to mention that I use antique oil with no problems what so ever. I have also used laquer and poly with no issues

[Jim Sebring]

You might want to talk to Fred Holder, Editor of "More Wood Turning" magazine. He responded to some similiar questions about Turner's Choice on the Wood Central forum a couple of weeks ago. He's apparently used the product for a while.

Fred's email address is fred@morewoodturning.net

[Peter Lamb]

I have recently been using this product. It costs almost $ 50 per gallon free shipping. The tech support people are very helpful. My experience has so far been very favorable but limited. I got a commission for four 11 inch salad bowls needed by September. Having tried all other methods to rapidly dry green bowl blanks including moderate success with DNA I decided to try Turners Choice. I needed two gallons to completely submerge the blanks.
My raw material was freshly cut cherry 12x5"
I followed the directions 24 hours in the product then 72 hours to dry then turn. It was amazing! Less than 1/16" diameter movement and no cracking. Actually in one blank there was a small crack which I expected to turn away. It actually closed during treatment. On the first blank the wall thickness was the usual 10% of diameter. the second I tried 5/8" still very little monement and no cracks. After 72 hour drying time I turned to finish size applied wipe on poly three coats buffed Done.
I have completed six bowls so far results are the same

[Allen Neighbors]

This is the answer I received this afternoon:
Hi Al,
Good to hear from you. I always enjoy hearing from the wood artisans. Please read on.
First let me clarify the components of our CedarShield/Turners Choice products for you. We do not have any silicones in our product. What we have is silane fluid which is made from melted quartz rock. When certain silanes are introduced to water it triggers a hydrophobic reaction which in turn makes silicon substance. Often one or all of these compounds are referred to as silicone which is a incorrect assumption. There are over 5000 silane fluids that are compounded to do many things and in some cases perhaps to make silicone. Yes, silicone is the enemy of the finish industry and will cause FISH EYE in a finished topical. Again, we have no silicone producing agents in our product.
When the silane fluids contained in CedarShield/Turners Choice, which are NANO in size, penetrate the cellular wall of the hydroxyl molecule (hydrogen/oxygen) a hydrophobic reaction creates what is referred to as a Si-JEL Matrix. Simply put, this is a pliable substance similar to and often referred to as silicone. As you know, the absence of moisture is the absence of issues in wood science. When the hydroxyl molecule is filled with the Si-Jel Matrix and the hydrogen and oxygen tails are collapsed, and the bound water in the molecule is converted, it can no longer take on moisture, air borne or liquid. This is the phenomenon that arrests the expansion and contraction of wood.
When using the CedarCide Wood Stabilization products it is best to apply when the wood has a higher moisture content. For best results it is imperative that the molecular structure of the wood be in a expanded state which simply means that the molecule is full of bound water. When the internal water is turned into a SI-JEL matrix in a swollen molecule, it will be stabilized in that position. The drying of wood and the shrinkage of the molecular structure as drying takes place is what causes the splitting, cracking and other issues facing artisans that work with wood turning projects.
The use of a humidity chamber or something as simple as spraying the work piece with water may be in order prior to treatment to achieve a better result.
There is no lengthy waiting time after treatment with the CedarCide Wood Stabilizers. Although a certain catalytic reaction will continue perpetually as the treatment triggers the early stages of wood petrification it will not compromise any future work a craftsman may want to perform. Most wood turning projects can be done immediately after treatment or 72 hours later is a satisfactory wait. Many of the artisans further spray the wood while it is being turned to insure that full solution penetration is being achieved. This will also facilitate smooth cutting and eliminate chaffing that often occurs on dryer wood. Furthermore, sanding of the wood after completion is much easier and effective since the wood now has a full body.
I hope this answers the questions you asked. I don't have all of the answers and since I am not a wood turner I must rely on the input of the folks using our product for their endeavors. I can only give you the scientific and technical information related to the technology. We feel we are nearly 100 % successful in stabilizing the wood with the exception of stress cracks often created on certain areas of the timber growth by limbs and stumps. I am told that choosing the wood from the stress free areas of the growth is a paramount decision in determining the finished results. However, at days end it is the wood artisans that will establish each and every personal protocol that dictates their success. We hope the CedarCide Technology will help them in their endeavors.

Thanks for using CedarCide Products. Please have a good day.

Dr. Ben Oldag
askben@cedarcide.com
Although he didn't answer my question about penetrating stain, directly, he did answer it. I think if you wanted to stain the wood you'd have to turn it, stain it, and then apply the Turner's Choice. I think, when I come back from this next show, I'll order some of it, before I get into heavy turning again. It sounds good to me.
Thanks for posting this thread!!!

[tom martin]

I just put in an order for 5 gallons of turners choice. During checkout I found that they are now offering free shipping! So my earlier post should read $199.00 shipped. I think the free shipping is available for any size shipment (1, 2, 4 or 5 gallons)
Tom

[Harvey Schneider]

I checked and all of their wood treatment products ship for free in the continental US. I guess I'm going to have to try this stuff myself. Thanks for all of the input.
Harvey in Southbury, CT

[Allen Neighbors]

I checked and all of their wood treatment products ship for free in the continental US. I guess I'm going to have to try this stuff myself. Thanks for all of the input.
Harvey in Southbury, CT
That's awesome! Now I know I've got to get some of it. I'm going to try a small amount first, just to be sure I want to use it on other pieces.

[Mike Minto]

As an aside to Harvey's post, while I still read posts concerning working with green wood and the prevention of it's cracking, it seems as though I see less posts lately. I know there are a number of methods people use, to varying degrees of success, but it's funny to me that since I saw folks, oh, a year or so ago, speak of using the wax-emulsion sealers on their green/rough turnings, I see less about other methods. Is the cat out of the bag, or what? I gave up on DNA and exclusively use anchorseal and it's relatives on my green turnings, and have had nothing but success with it. I'd like to try boiling some forms, but don't really have the room or want to spend the $ on a set-up. That's one I have not tried. So, what's my point? - don't really have one, other than to solicit opinions on what I've just posted. :)

[Harvey Schneider]

Mike,
I have tried anchor seal and it works, but I don't have the room or the patience to let my rough turnings dry for six months.
I have tried DNA and I still have problems with distortion as the final drying occurs. I guess I'm a little too impatient for that process. Two weeks after soaking my meter still read 18% water content at the base of the bowl while the rim read less than 7%. When the bowl was finished it warped as the base finally dried.
So what it comes down to is that I am looking for a method that doesn't break the creative process. One that would allow me to finish a bowl within a week of starting.
Harvey in Southbury, CT

[Mike Minto]

Mike,
I have tried anchor seal and it works, but I don't have the room or the patience to let my rough turnings dry for six months.
I have tried DNA and I still have problems with distortion as the final drying occurs. I guess I'm a little too impatient for that process. Two weeks after soaking my meter still read 18% water content at the base of the bowl while the rim read less than 7%. When the bowl was finished it warped as the base finally dried.
So what it comes down to is that I am looking for a method that doesn't break the creative process. One that would allow me to finish a bowl within a week of starting.
Harvey in Southbury, CT

A week? Good luck with that. If you find such a method, don't bogart it. ;)

[Ted Jay]

That's awesome! Now I know I've got to get some of it. I'm going to try a small amount first, just to be sure I want to use it on other pieces.

I bought 5 gallons a little over a month ago, and even though I could have drove the 40 miles to pick it up... free shipping. I've only turned two bowls with it to final finish with no problems. I didn't add any stain but I'm sure staining can be done after the turners choice has been applied with no problems.

Ted

[Pauls GreenBarn]

Does anyone have an update on the cedarshield product.Thanks

[Allen stagg]

Not sure about this stuff, but I have used PEG 500 (most you buy is PEG 1000). I get the PEG 500 which is very simular to the store bought PEG1000 from a good friend that gets it for nothing more than nothing (free). I have turned a many of vases and some small and many large and turn to finished size. As soon as I finish turning, I soak with a mixture of the PEG 500 and water (50/50) for about 3 - 5 days and wash off exterier. I then bring in house to dry for a few day and then speed drying up by setting in the sun for a little while (Southeast Texas gets quite hot) or often microwave and this has given me a lot of sucess with little movement in the wood and no cracks. If trying to dry too quick however, some movement could be expected. I also spray laquer over this and have never had any issues at all and I have a lot of vases available to prove it.