Having a stain made based on old one.

[Jack Tavolario]

I’ve finally jumped into the fray of refinishing the kitchen cabinets. I’ll try to keep away from a lot of the mundane questions, but here’s one that has me wonderin’.

The cabinets were originally oak, finished with a some kind of a blue/gray stain, where you could see the grain, but just barely. Well, over the last 23 years, the areas where they’ve been touched a great deal, have of course worn down to the bare wood, or at least close to it, where we felt it needed to have something done to give it a facelift.

No problem. I practiced on the bathroom cabinets that were natural, and screwed around with that door until I got fairly proficient with getting the old finish off. But this particular stain is very different, in that no matter what, it doesn’t look like a piece of virgin wood.

I went to the Sh Will store with a door that I’d stripped one side of, and the guy said no problem. Leave the door and in a day he’d match the stain. I also stopped at a Kel Moore store, but this guy said that in order to match the stain, he’d have to have a clean piece of oak to test it on.

Now old silly me has the feeling that if the stain is made based on a piece of virgin oak, its not gonna show up the same as on the one’s I’ve stripped, no matter how well I prepared them. I’d just like some thoughts on whether to use a stripped piece of wood for them to use as a test or get than new piece of wood.

[Chris Padilla]

Jack,

If you feel you will get consistent color from your stripping process, then I think the SW guy has it right. I'm guessing your stripped oak is darkish? If you don't feel this way, it is safest to take the oak all the way back to its natural color and start from there (but that sounds like a ton of work to me). Still, if the stain is on the dark side, it MAY NOT matter.

My wife and I got lucky with our oak kitchen. All the oak there was finished with a whitish pickeling stain of some kind and then had a semi-gloss clear (not sure what). So the stain was on the light side to begin with. Some experimentation with two stains found in the Minwax section of the borg yielded us a very satisfactory match on a fresh piece of oak. In fact, I used red oak for the test vehicle whilst our cabinets were made of white oak! It turned out to not matter.

I still have a couple of doors to redo but the backsplash came out very nice. I know the doors might look a bit different as they will be difficult to get the wood that has darkened from water stains perfectly clean due to the profiles on the door. The backsplash was just a solid board and it cleaned up nicely with some 50 grit on my ROS (and a fair amount of elbow grease).

[Howard Acheson]

>>>> But this particular stain is very different, in that no matter what, it doesn’t look like a piece of virgin wood.

What does it look like? What paint remover are you using? Does it contain methylene chloride?

Many stains contain a dye component in addition to the pigment. Paint remover will not do a good job removing dye. Try applying a chlorine bleach to the wood after the paint remover has done its job and dried. Use fresh bottle of Clorox and dilute it about 5-6 parts distilled water to one part bleach. Do not use tap water. Apply and keep wet for 30 minutes or so and see if that removes most of whatever is left.

[Jack Tavolario]

When the wife gets home, I’ll try to post a picture. Its like a haze. I’m applying 1 coat of stripper, then scraping it off, then another coat and scrubbing what’s left with 03 steel wool, then wiping with water, wiping with a clan dry rag, then wiping down with clean rag with clean water. Granted I’m not getting 100% of the finish off of every single piece I’ve done, but there ain’t a lot left when I’m done. ;)

I mixed up some Chlorox and gave it a try.

[Howard Acheson]

Again, what is the stripper you are using? Sounds like you are not getting all the old finish off.

[Jack Tavolario]

Again, what is the stripper you are using? Sounds like you are not getting all the old finish off.

I’ve used JASCO Epoxy and Paint remover, and BIX Stan and Varnish Remover. Both were recommended by Sh Wil and Kel Moor. As I said, when I can, I’ll post pics.

[Tony Bilello]

Is it possible that it is not a stain but a glaze that was used in "picking"?.
This was very popular 25 to 30 years ago. Since we dont have a photo, I'm just making a guess. When something is pickled, it starts out with a colored base coat. The base coat will be the dominant color. Then a different color glaze is applied and then rubbed off leaving the glaze inly in the pores. Then the whole thing is clear coated. When you look at it, your eye interpolates the two colors and sees it as one color all be it a different color than the base or the glaze. Check the finish closely and you will be able to confirm or eliminate this possibility.
Another thought would be the possibility of a tinted finish and again, no stain at all.
Just a thought.

Jack: Your statement ....."Now old silly me has the feeling that if the stain is made based on a piece of virgin oak, its not gonna show up the same as on the one’s I’ve stripped, no matter how well I prepared them. .....use a stripped piece of wood for them to use as a test..."
I agree 100% with you on the above for the same obvious reasons.

[Jack Tavolario]

The pic with the 2 doors hung and the lower right corner is what they look like before.

The bunch of doors are the ones stripped.

The next one is a stripped door, and the one that looks brown is the same door in the sunlight so the flash won’t go.

The last one is a closer pick of a stripped door.

If there’s any thing left on them other than that little tint of gray, I sure don’t see it. When I put the bleach on a door this morning, it sure looked and feel like bare wood, with the grain raising just like any other piece of par wood that got soaken wet.

[Scott Holmes]

Looks like pickeling to me... Thinned white paint add to raw wood. Very difficult to get the paint out of the pores without lots of tedious work with stripper and brass brush.

[Tony Bilello]

Looks like a pickled finish. Here is the klinker....when you removed the old finish, some of the residue of lacquer and glaze might still be in the pores although from the photos, it looks pretty clean.
Wipe a soaking wet rag of lacquer thinner across the surface and that is what your doors will look like if clear coated.
In either case, the paint seller needs to match the color you want on your doors and not a virgin piece of red oak.

Now......the only way the paint guy can get even close to matching that finish is that he would have to duplicate the original process of layering the base coat and the 'filler' coat of glaze. If he is good, it can be done reasonably close. As for the 'virgin wood' guy - forget about him. He dont have a clue. If your stripped all of the cabinets in that room, an exact match would not be that important.

[Jack Tavolario]

JEEZ! I got a call today after 4 days, that the stain was ready. I went down an looked, and wanted to cry. What it looked like was the matched the stripped wood, not the sample door I brought them.

I’m giving them another chance, but I’m not at all confident that these guys can come up with an answer. Am I wrong that a professional outfit like Kelly Moore should be able to get a decent match in a week if they’re given what there is to work with, and an example of the final product desired, or am I expecting too much?

[Scott Holmes]

It looks like thinned white paint to me; is there color in it that doesn't show up in the pics?

[Neal Clayton]

have you considered using something other than a stain for color?

dyed shellac is much more forgiving on stripped pieces, since it builds a film it doesn't care if there are minor inconsistencies beneath, it will make them all uniform after a couple/three coats.

[Jack Tavolario]

It looks like thinned white paint to me; is there color in it that doesn't show up in the pics?

There's a blue/gray tint to it.

All we want is the look, and don't care if its a stain or a paint. Are you saying the same effect can be gotten from a a thinned white, gray or whatever paint?

[Scott Holmes]

In a word... Yeap. (system wouldn't let me do a one word answer).

[Jack Tavolario]

Looks like we might have found the answer, although I admit it won’t be me actually doing the work. I’ve been led to a fellow here who’s renown for his spraying abilities. I talked to him today, and he says he’s never seen the finish he couldn’t duplicate.

I’ll be taking a couple doors to him on Monday, and we’ll see what happens. For sure the guys at the KM store I went too were either not capable of pulling this one off, or had no real interest in doing it to sell 1 quart of paint. I understand either reason, but would like to have been told up front and honestly.

I’ve got my fingers crossed! ;)


I wouldn't mind trying the various suggestions I've gotten here, but if I can't find anyone to make the stuff up, I'm in a poor position. That's a problem for the DIY folks like myself who don't do more than a couple projects this size in a lifetime.

[Chris Padilla]

Jack,

I think that if you go to your local Home Depot's paint section and check out the selection of water-based Minwax stains, I bet you can find something close to what you want or two stains that look like they could worked if mixed appropriately.

Other than the bluish/greyish tint you have, your oak was finished very similar to mine with the pickeling (mine was pickeled with a weak whitish/yellowish stain).

If I can remember, I will try to post pics of my cabinets, the stain, the results of the new finish vs. original finish.