Stanley 45 vs Stanley 78 & Record 044

[Steve Stack]

If the title isn't confusing enough, IF you want to be able to cut ploughs and rabbets, which is better, a combination of a dedicated plough plane and rabbet plane or a combi-plane such as the 45? Sounds simple, but which will do a better job or are they equal? I realize my questions may seem disjointed at times but, I am trying to set up a small neander cave in the basement to be able to work on projects when it is too hot or cold to go to the shop. Thus my quest for neander techniques. I will be working on a trestle dining table for my youngest daughter soon and need to use breadboard ends and am trying to figure what I will need to best get the job done. If I am way off base in my anticipated journey, please advise now and save me future heartache on how you would construct such joints'. At least I know I am asking in the right place. Thanks
Steve

[David Weaver]

A 45 works fairly well as a plow plane. Not that great for anything else (that I've used it with - i had 2 45s and ditched them).

If you get a 45 body cheap (like $25-$40 cheap) and get some replacement irons for it, it's about as cheap of a full-sized functional plow plane as you'll find.

The 78 is a decent rabbet plane, not so great across the grain, but good with it.

I haven't used a record 044, just the small LV and a stanley 50. The thing that's not desirable on some 50s (the ability to hold small irons) is done better on a 44.

Ultimately, it'd be nice to have all 3. 78s are cheap, so are 45s if you don't insist on having a complete one with original box and beading irons, etc (it doesn't do well with those, anyway, at least not compared to planes that are purpose built for the work, and especially if the wood gets tough at all).

I have had everything you've listed except the 50, which was tolerable, but would've been made a lot better for narrow irons if it had the record's holding apparatus. I sold the 50 and got the LV plow plane. Probably wouldn't have done that if I could've found a 44 within a reasonable amount of time (i didn't manage to do that).

Had a 78, sold it for the LV skews. I like those a lot better, obviously, but I don't know about 8x as good, which is about how much more the pair cost. I still have a sargent vbm version of the rabbet planes, and am reluctant to let it go. I think sargent's name is 79 for the vbm, not to be confused with stanley's 79.

I use a full size wooden plow plane when I don't have work too close to the edge (by design with a thin iron, it can't get there). it's a lot nicer to use than the 45 was, but with the irons, it was almost as much as a complete 45.

Were i in your shoes, I'd get the rabbet plane and pick one or the other of the plow planes, and then add the other plow plane if you really felt like you needed it. I can't imagine using a 45 for a rabbet plane when there are good cheap rabbet planes available, other than maybe for novelty.

Pat leach has a good comment on his page - if you get a combination plane, save the box (I think it might be in his 55 entry), because when you decide you're going to sell it, the box will help you get your money back.

[James Owen]

Steve,

For your immediate project, either a Tongue & Groove plane or a #45/#55 combination plane (with a set of cutters that includes the T&G irons) will do the trick for you. The #45/#55 will be more versatile, in terms of what you can do in centering the T&G in the thickness of the wood, but also tends to be a bit more finicky to set up; dedicated T&G planes are designed to center the T&G on a specific thickness of wood (they'll work on other thicknesses, but the T&G won't be centered).

Another way to do your breadboard prep would be to use a rebate plane and a plough plane to cut the tongue and the groove, respectively. Or you could saw and then trim the tongue with a shoulder plane, and then use a chisel or a router plane to cut the groove. Those are just a couple of the ways you could make your T&G.

Another factor to consider is cost: #45/#55 combo planes with cutters will usually set you back at least a couple of hundred dollars; T&G planes are somewhat less expensive. Rebate planes (#78, etc) are much less expensive, as are router planes (#71, #71-1/2, etc), and decent vintage saws can be had for just a couple of dollars.

Hope that this is of some use to you.

[Steve Stack]

David, thanks for the quick reply. I've been leaning toward getting a Record 044 as it looks like a dedicated plough works better but then questioned myself thinking the 45 can do it all. From your experience, would the 78 cut accurate enough tongues for breadboard ends? Is the 044 better than the 45 at ploughing grooves? How do these work going against the grain or in cross grain? So many questions and so little knowledge. Thanks,
Steve

[David Weaver]

Never tried to cut tongues with a rabbet plane, can't tell you too much. did have the iron for the combination plane, and while you can do it, a dedicated T&G plane or pair of moulding planes works really easily.

I think the combination planes feel all about the same (to me) for plowing grooves. I had a 45,55, and 50. The 50 I had was the type that hugged the iron instead of gripping it with a lever cap. It didn't hug narrow irons tightly enough for them to keep their dept setting, they crept deeper. The 45 is better for bigger irons probably, but if you're just grooving drawers and things like that, I don't know if it makes a difference which one you get - they both do that kind of stuff easily.

None of them cut that great across or against the grain, but there are work-arounds for most things (back bevel on the irons against the grain, scoring across the grain first or making starting cuts with a dado plane).

[Steve Stack]

James, thanks, I guess my question really centers around whether a dedicated plough and rabbet plane make better cuts, are more accurate etc., I have some patience with set-up, so am willing to take the time to set up a 45, however, are the cuts as good? Do you have similar support for the irons, having used neither, I just don't know what to get. By the way, I don't have a shoulder plane for final fitting so, will either give me a finished shoulder? Thanks as always,
Steve

[David Weaver]

The 78 is too big and loppy for shoulders, it's more of a roughing tool.

The 45 has no sole and it's at common pitch and it doesn't support an iron like a single purpose plane. That's what you have to think about when you use it. When you cut downgrain and match the cut depth to what you're doing, it works fine except on really hard wood. It has nothing to mitigate tearout, though, and....no sole. No other plow has a sole except one-off stuff, so that's why it's fine as a plow, i guess, that and you're not getting hyper about some tearout in the bottom of a groove.

If you really do end up doing a lot of joinery by hand, you'll eventually end up getting single purpose planes.

I would just get the 78 and either the 45 or 50 and find out where you feel limited after some experimentation and go from there. They are both cheap planes, and everything else goes up from there, so they're a good place to start.

You may never need a shoulder plane, depending on how you do work. There isn't anything they do that can't be done with chisels and other tools, and a decent wooden rabbet plane should be about $15 (I didn't go that route, but I used a shoulder plane a lot at first, bought two, and use them lot less now).

[Don Dorn]

I have a Record 044 and love it. It was expensive when I bought it because it was prime and the blades had never been honed. It's nothing I think about now because I like it that well. They are a pleasure and fun to use - I was really amazed how fast four boards were done to place a panel in.

[Frank Drew]

Were i in your shoes, I'd get the rabbet plane and pick one or the other of the plow planes, and then add the other plow plane if you really felt like you needed it.

I agree with David on getting two planes, but I'd look for the Record 778 instead of the Stanley 78. A better tool, IMO.